Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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The next Topical Issue matter is in the names of Deputies Ó Caoláin, Pringle and Collins. The Deputies have one minute each, by way of introduction.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Is the Acting Chairman proposing one minute?

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is miserable.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Those are the rules.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The issue at the heart of this dispute is one of rights, primarily the right of workers to join and be represented by the trade union of their choice. We have had six days of protest action, including one of 24 hours duration, by the more than 500 ambulance staff who are members of the National Ambulance Service Representative Association, NASRA, branch of the PNA. We are now to face another 24-hour strike on 19 July from 2 p.m. until 2 p.m. on the following day. Tomorrow, a protest rally will take place outside of this parliament building from 12.30 p.m. Why has the Minister for Health failed to instruct the HSE to engage with the PNA under the facilitation and oversight of the WRC? This is a shameful situation where the State and its agencies are refusing to recognise the fundamental right of workers to join the trade union of their choice. Make no mistake about this, the PNA and its NASRA branch are a significant workers' representative organisation. The PNA is an experienced representative and negotiating body that the HSE engages with on a regular basis but not in relation to ambulance staff.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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I reflect what Deputy Ó Caoláin said. I am aware that the Minister of State has answered questions on this issue before but this has to keep coming up again and again because it is very important. I fail to see why the Department does not engage on this because it will not cost anything and it is not about money or budgets. It is about the right of workers to be represented by a union of their choice. That is vitally important.

Over 500 members of the ambulance service are members of the PNA and that is a huge cohort of those workers. This represents between 40% and 50% of the entire ambulance crew saying that they want to be represented by this union and not to be represented by a union that is dictated to us by our employers. That is totally wrong in this day and age. These workers demands should be recognised and the HSE will have to accept that it will have to work with a different union which is the reality of the situation. When the majority of workers want to do this, they should be allowed to so do.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent)
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I want to preface my comments by saying that the Minister, Deputy Harris, has stated publicly a number of times that he wants to see a resolution of this dispute through dialogue and not through confrontation. The PNA and ambulance personnel members, including paramedics, advanced paramedics and emergency medical technicians, were left with no option in this dispute but to take strike action on six days, with one 24-hour strike on 31 May. Despite this clear demonstration of the resolve and determination of those ambulance members, they still face into a dispute.

The Minister stated on a number of occasions that he would ask his officials to meet with the HSE to review and to resolve this dispute. In a letter of reply to us - five Deputies from the Opposition - on 12 April, he said he was going to ask his Department officials to discuss this with the HSE. We want to know where those discussions are at. Are they moving on? The WRC invited the HSE three times to enter into negotiations and it has refused which is outrageous. The HSE should attend the Labour Court or WRC.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I would like to thank the Deputies for raising this issue here today.

As we know, this matter relates to a branch of the Psychiatric Nurses Association called the National Ambulance Service Representative Association, NASRA. This group has engaged in industrial action on seven dates since the action initiated on 22 January 2019. The last date NASRA members engaged in industrial action was for a 24-hour period on 31 May. It is regrettable that this week it has announced a further date of 24-hour action due to be held between the hours of 2 p.m. on Friday, 19 July and Saturday, 20 July 2019.

By way of background, members of NASRA represent approximately 350 front-line ambulance personnel out of a total National Ambulance Service work force of 1,800. I understand that they are mostly based in Cork, the south east and Tullamore.

The HSE and the National Ambulance Service have confirmed that again, robust contingency arrangements were in place to ensure that there was no risk to the health and safety of our health service users during the industrial action. The HSE has confirmed that full emergency cover was provided. This means that all emergency calls were responded to.

In addition, the National Ambulance Service, NAS, put robust contingency arrangements in place to provide additional emergency cover. The Defence Forces have also been on stand by with a number of crewed ambulances. The intention, as previously, is to minimise any disruption and to ensure that patient safety is not compromised.

During the industrial action, National Ambulance Service management closely monitor service demand and delivery. NAS has confirmed to us that during the dates of action there has been no negative impact on the ability of the service to provide patient care and service delivery. What this means is that there were no adverse incidents.

We need to be clear again on what the actual position is in relation to this dispute. The National Ambulance Service Representative Association, which is affiliated with the PNA, is a group which is not recognised by the HSE and therefore does not have negotiating rights. The PNA also does not have negotiating rights for ambulance personnel. The legal position is very clear. The HSE and the National Ambulance Service have no obligation to recognise NASRA or the PNA for ambulance personnel. The PNA, which is a non-ICTU affiliated union, has negotiating rights for nurses working in psychiatry and intellectual disability sectors. The main union which is recognised by the HSE for ambulance front line grades is SIPTU. FÓRSA and Unite also represent ambulance grades. The HSE deducts subscriptions at source for those ambulance staff that are members of SIPTU, FÓRSA and Unite. This is consistent with the fact that these are the unions that are recognised as representing ambulance grades.

The HSE does not carry out deductions for subscriptions to NASRA, as it is not recognised. It should be noted that facilitating deductions at source is not a legal right, rather it is a concession granted to recognised unions.

Of course, individuals have a right to membership of any trade union. However, they do not have a right that such membership is facilitated or recognised by their employer.

Deputies, at this stage I note, are asking what progress has been made between the Department of Health officials and the HSE on exploring various options to see how a resolution to this dispute can be reached. I can assure the Deputies that we all want to see a resolution to this dispute. I can also advise that the discussions, as suggested by the Minister, Deputy Harris, have been held but an appropriate solution has not yet been identified. Deputies must be aware that industrial relations policy has had a long-standing objective of avoiding fragmentation in worker representation in public sector employments and the trade union movement generally to facilitate the orderly conduct of bargaining and other aspects of industrial relations. However, as of today, the fact remains that the PNA does not have negotiating rights for ambulance grades.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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First and foremost, the Minister, Deputy Harris, should be here to answer this issue. He continuously absents himself on health matters. This is as grievous an issue as any other that will present itself. The Minister of State said that the HSE and the National Ambulance Service have no obligation to recognise NASRA, or the PNA to represent ambulance personnel. I contend that they have a moral obligation and responsibility. It is a fundamental right and withholding recognition is absolute hypocrisy. The Minister of State goes on further to indicate that discussions, as suggested by the Minister, have been held. I ask the Minister of State elaborate on exactly what discussions have taken place because the only discussions that will resolve this dispute are those that can be held under the terms of the WRC. Nothing less will suffice in this very grave situation.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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The Minister of State's reply is not acceptable and it is a vitally important right that workers' own choice of union be recognised. The Minister of State said SIPTU represents the ambulance grades. This is fair enough as it represents quite a large number of them. FÓRSA and Unite, as far as I understand, have very small numbers of ambulance-grade workers within their membership. At the very least, if NASRA is not the biggest, it is certainly the second largest union that workers have chosen to represent them with their employer.

The Government represents the people of all the country, including these workers, and does not just represent the HSE. Unfortunately, it seems like we are fighting on behalf of the other unions as well, which can stand back and watch. The only people this decision facilitates are the other unions. It does not make life any easier for the ambulance service. What would make life easier for it would be recognition of workers' right to be represented by the people they choose.

I thank Deputy Gallagher, who is fully supportive of the issues we are raising and would have liked to have been present for this debate.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent)
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Strike action has occurred on six days, including a 24-hour strike on 31 May. Workers will demonstrate outside Leinster House at 12.30 p.m. tomorrow. Unfortunately, there will be a further 24-hour strike. They do not want to do it, but they are being forced to do so because this issue has been ongoing for six months. The Government has had six months to hold discussions with officials and the HSE to try to resolve this issue. The Minister of State assured the House that everyone wanted to see a resolution, but there has been none. Six months is a long time and people are getting tired of this. If the Minister of State thinks that workers will just walk away after fighting for the past ten years to have their union of choice recognised, he will find they will not. The dispute must be resolved.

Following on from Deputy Ó Caoláin's point, what discussions have there been with the HSE and what avenues were considered? The Minister of State keeps referring to a figure of 350, but there are more than 500 people in NASRA. Some were registered before the payroll cut-off happened. It is a significant group of workers in the ambulance sector and they should be recognised.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I do not have the details of the discussions, nor would it be appropriate to go into them on the floor of the House. Members will agree that we will not sort the issue out in this Chamber. This is not the forum where we-----

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent)
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Could we have the meeting for which we asked?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, but I did not interrupt you. If you would just let me say what-----

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent)
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Whenever you finish. Sorry.

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Please, through the Chair.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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This will be sorted through face-to-face talks between the HSE and the bodies involved. I do not want to say anything that is unhelpful, as I want to see this resolved as much as any of the Deputies opposite. So does the Minister, Deputy Harris. However, I must restate the HSE's position. I will not defend it or stand on one side or the other. I am just making the point that there is a broader issue of fragmentation of representation. Given that there are already three unions representing workers, the HSE is slow to recognise a fourth union. It would mean that every time there was a change, four different bodies would have to be consulted and the representation of the workers would be fragmented. That is a legitimate question to raise and be addressed in this discussion. Notwithstanding that, I am hopeful that we will be able to find a solution through the bodies sitting down and trying to resolve this.

At issue is the collection of subscriptions, which the HSE is refusing to do in this instance. It states that it is not legally obliged to do so, that it only collects subscriptions as a concession, that it is already doing so in respect of three unions and that doing it for a fourth would be to fragment representation. I just want to put those points on the record and reiterate that the Minister and I want to see a resolution to this situation and see the workers back doing what they do best for the State on a daily basis.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent)
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On a point of order, the Minister of State is right to say that we should not have to do this across the floor-----

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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A point of order is not allowed within the-----

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent)
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-----but we requested a meeting with the Minister on 12 March. Will the Minister of State arrange that meeting?

Declan Breathnach (Louth, Fianna Fail)
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Unfortunately, I am like the Deputy and am obliged to work within the rules and Standing Orders. I am sorry, but I am only implementing the rules. If I gave the Deputy latitude, I would have to give it to everyone else as well.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent)
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Yes, but the Minister of State said that he could not discuss these issues across the floor. Maybe he could arrange a meeting for us.