Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for taking this matter tonight. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak on the interim report on the mother and baby homes. It is ironic that this week is the 20th anniversary of the State's apology to the survivors of Ireland's industrial and reformatory schools. I want to discuss the major findings of the report, some aspects of which are worrying. I want to get them on the record and I want people outside this Chamber to understand what is going on. The major findings of the report centre around Bessborough and Tuam, both of which raise major issues regarding the failure to record burials properly. The estimates for the number of children believed to have died at these homes have also increased significantly. Sean Ross has more than 1,000 children and 29 mothers, Tuam has 973 children, and Bessborough has in excess of 900 children and 14 mothers. A total of 1,343 deaths occurred in respect of the institutions in the Cork County Home and Saint Finbarr's Hospital. Bethany has 220 children and one mother, Castlepollard has 220 children and eight mothers, and Pelletstown and the Dublin Union are unclear because the commission is still investigating.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is about 2,000.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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That is frightening. The report also notes there are 830 missing bodies and refers to misleading affidavits from nuns. There surely has to be some repercussions for it. It bewilders me. It states in the report that there is a small burial ground in the grounds of Bessborough that was opened in 1956 for members of the congregation. The report notes that it seems to have been assumed by former residents and advocacy groups that this is also where the children who died in Bessborough are buried as there are occasional meetings and commemoration ceremonies held there. I go every year, and three years ago I met an elderly gentleman who thought he was the only person ever to be adopted into Canada from Ireland. He did not get any answers and unfortunately he is now dead. This is what I want to get across to the Minister. We can do all these reports and people can understand. Ideas have been mooted about putting up plaques and stuff, but I spoke to many survivors or victims, whichever we might call them, and they do not want that. They have some horrific memories. What they want is to be heard and understood.

The report goes on to state that the commission finds that affidavits supplied by the nuns who ran the Sacred Heart homes in Bessborough, Sean Ross Abbey and Castlepollard regarding burials were in many respects speculative, inaccurate and misleading. It is unbelievable, and still nobody has been punished for this. On the reality of what this has done to families and their mental health, a very close friend of mine was in Bessborough. It is well documented. She was forced to breastfeed her child while facing a wall. That child was torn from her chest. It took her 43 years and the State did everything to deflect any services or help. It was through pure luck and pure determination that eventually she found her son. This is happening to hundreds and possibly thousands of people. I am afraid about the Retention of Records Bill 2019. To bury everything for 75 years is killing off four generations of these people and it is an atrocity what the State is doing to them.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I thank the Deputy for raising the matter of the fifth interim report of the Commission of Investigation into Mother and Baby Homes and Certain Related Matters, which I published on 17 April 2019. This comprehensive report focuses on the burial arrangements in the institutions being examined by the statutory commission of investigation. The report also provides detailed information on the transfer of remains for the purpose of anatomical examination. It is clear that the commission has examined and cross-referenced a huge amount of material in a way never before possible. The report reflects the sheer depth and complexity of the work the commission is undertaking in the public interest.

The report includes a number of important findings relating to the burials at Tuam and examines the practices in a number of other institutions, including St Patrick's, Bessborough, Bethany Home, Castlepollard and Sean Ross Abbey. The commission states that many of the children who died in the Tuam home are buried in the underground chambers on this site. The commission has determined that the burial chambers were not in a recognised burial ground or purpose-built, and they did not provide for the dignified interment of human remains. In addition, the commission concludes that there is little basis for the theory that children were sold to American couples rather than having died. The report also has wider implications for forthcoming legislation. Officials in my Department are working on legislation to enable the proposed forensic standard excavation, exhumation and identification of remains at the site in Tuam.

With regard to Bessborough, the commission reports that more than 900 children who were born or admitted to Bessborough died in infancy or early childhood. There are a number of locations within the grounds where burial could have taken place. Cartographic and landscape assessment was arranged by the commission. To date they have found no physical or documentary evidence which indicates burials. The commission is of the opinion that burials may have taken place in Carr's Hill cemetery in Cork city. Despite extensive searches, however, the register of burials has not been located to date. While at this point it cannot say for certain, the commission considers that it is highly likely that burials did take place in the grounds of Bessborough. It concluded, however, that it was not feasible for it to engage in an excavation of a 60-acre site. The commission confirmed that children who died in Dublin Union premises, including the former St Patrick's on the Navan Road, were buried in Glasnevin Cemetery where detailed records of these deaths and burials are maintained. In addition, the commission states that it has no reason to doubt that the majority of the children who died in Castlepollard are buried in the burial ground on this site. Mount Jerome Cemetery was the main burial site for the children who died in the Bethany Home. The commission reports that deaths of children were properly recorded in the Bethany baby book register maintained by the home's authorities. The commission has undertaken a geophysical study and test excavations of the burial site at Sean Ross Abbey and its report notes that the results of this work are being examined by the commission.

This report will take some time to absorb fully but it undoubtedly advances our understanding of the burial practices at these institutions. While the commission makes no specific recommendations, it calls on anyone who may have information relating to burials to come forward and speak to it. I strongly endorse this call by the commission and encourage anyone with relevant information to contact the commission immediately. This report is not necessarily the commission's final say on burials at these institutions. Any further information will be included in the commission's final report, which is due to be submitted by February 2020. The publication of the fifth interim report is a significant milestone in the work of this commission. We can be reassured that the commission has not shied away from the difficult questions. Its work will shine a light on this dark period in our history.

Pat Buckley (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for her reply. She mentioned that the Government is fully committed to this. The Retention of Records Bill - the Minister who introduced it, Deputy McHugh, has just left the Chamber - proposes to withhold from public inspection every document gathered or made by the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse, the Residential Institutions Redress Board and the Residential Institutions Redress Review Committee for no less than 75 years. That is very worrying. I do not want to see it happen. We need to get to the end of this. This is where the State is responsible.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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My personal sentiments are with the Deputy. It was awful to listen to the Deputy outline the story of the woman who was in one of the homes. Most of the Deputy's commentary relates to information that has been provided, but they cannot get access to it. My personal sentiments reside with the Deputy.

The Retention of Records Bill provides for a 75-year period because of the legal advice from the Attorney General. That is required because of the commitments or agreements on information given. I still had difficulty with it, myself. I suggested that there should be a review of that period of time, and that is in included in the Bill at a certain point. At a personal level I do not accept that - I am with the Deputy - although the advice is otherwise.

The Deputy said that the mother and baby homes commission of investigation, which also receives the testimony, is not providing access. I am aware of that. He referred to relatives not getting information. I also read that report by the journalist. In one case where a child was buried and they assumed from the report that it might have been a child related to them, again they could not get information. Both of those are examples of the interpretation of the commission itself, supported by the Attorney General, that the Commissions of Investigation Act inhibits that kind of provision of information. That is why it is happening.