Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Topical Issue matter No. 2 is in the names of Deputies Sherlock and Fitzmaurice.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Deputy Sherlock is attending a vote at a committee. The Deputy has asked me to-----

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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To hold the fort.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Yes.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Minister is here to take the matter. Perhaps we will proceed. The two Deputies wish to discuss applications to convert UK driving licences to Irish driving licences.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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I thank the Minister, Deputy Ross, for coming to the Chamber to discuss this issue and I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting it. Deputy Sherlock has also put this matter but he is attending a committee vote currently.

Deputy Sherlock has encountered the same issue, as have other Deputies around the country, especially in the last week. We are being inundated with calls from people who have UK driving licences and are having difficulty changing them over to Irish licences. I understand there is a walk-in service advertised on the website but unfortunately there have been hours of queuing for many of the people who have gone in to the centres to apply. There is not enough staff, but in fairness this is probably because the service is under pressure. People are taking time off work to go in to apply to change their licences and now panic is beginning to set in. I believe that 12 April is the deadline for this.

Conflicting views are given when one goes in to change a licence. People are stating that if an application is made then the person is okay to drive but others have heard that a driver cannot drive until he or she has the new licence. Deputy Sherlock has heard the same. Some people have said that if a driver does not have the licence in time then he or she may have to resit a driving test.

Many Irish people have made their lives in England. They go over on a Monday and come back on Friday evening. There are many people whose lives are intertwined between the UK and Ireland. We need to make sure that this is facilitated. In the spirit of partnership and in the context of the common travel area, I put it to the Minister that we should not ask people to change over their driving licences. There was a common travel area long before the UK or Ireland was in the EU. If the Minister cannot do that perhaps he could tell the House who is making up these rules. Is the EU pushing the Government on this? What part has the Road Safety Authority, RSA, in it?

If the Minister cannot solve this issue under the common travel area can we give a breathing space of a three month period? We need to put out a very clear message to people that if they do not have their licence by 12 April they should not panic because there could, for example, be a grace period of a month or so and they would not be put off the road. We need to make clear to people that they would not have to resit a driving test if they already hold a UK licence.

The situation is unusual. Over the last week in constituency offices Deputy Sherlock and other Deputies have seen the beginnings of panic as people are ringing up. The situation is causing a lot of frustration for people who have UK driving licences and especially for people who live and work in the Border counties, from Donegal over to Deputy Adams's county. There are others who may have worked in the UK years ago, who came back to Ireland and have always had a UK licence. Some civil servant needs to bring a bit of common sense into this matter rather than this growing frustration. People who are working cannot take time off work to spend three or four hours queuing for this. This is what Deputy Sherlock and I have been told. The queues go on so long that people are not getting to make their application as they have to leave. We need to solve this. I understand the application cannot be done online, but I am open to correction on that. I ask the Minister to bring clarity to the situation.

Shane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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I thank Deputy Fitzmaurice for raising this very important issue. In the event of a no-deal Brexit, people resident in Ireland will no longer be able to drive on a UK driving licence. At present, we recognise other EU member state driving licences, but when the UK leaves the EU the UK will no longer be a member state and so the driving licence will not be recognised.

The Road Safety Authority, RSA, through the National Driver Licence Service, NDLS, is informing people to avail of the exchange facility in place to swap over the UK licence for an Irish licence before that facility extinguishes in the event of a no-deal Brexit. Legislation exists to allow for the recognition of foreign driving licences for exchange purposes in section 23A of the Road Traffic Act 1961. If there is a no-deal Brexit, the UK becomes a third country and the potential then exists for arrangements to be made under section 23A. Ireland will be pursuing this option. This may take a little time to complete as it involves the signing of a formal agreement with the UK and the introduction of secondary legislation here in Ireland. People who are not resident in the State, such as those visiting or on a temporary stay from the UK, do not need to exchange their licence.

Deputy Fitzmaurice referred to the waiting times. The NDLS is experiencing significantly increased demand and extra resources are being put in place to maintain the current ten days application processing time. Many NDLS centres have extended their opening hours by opening an hour earlier at 8 a.m. and closing at 6 p.m. or 6.30 p.m. instead of 5 p.m., resulting in a total of 220 extra opening hours this week across the network across the country. The extra opening hours are helping to meet demand. Priority is being given to UK licence exchanges with 38 staff working on UK licence exchange alone. Up to 600 licence exchanges are being processed daily. When attending any of the 36 NDLS centres nationally to apply for a learner permit, a driving licence, to exchange a driving licence or for any other reason, it is recommended that an appointment be made. Due to the demand for UK licence exchanges, it may not be possible to make an appointment in time before the 12 April deadline.

The NDLS also provides approximately 1,300 slots per day for walk-in appointments. There will be a longer wait time for walk ins, which Deputy Fitzmaurice referred to, but I am informed that no-one has been turned away from a centre and that the queues are not too long. The walk-in slots equate to about 50% of the total slots available. Walk-in visits are encouraged before 11 a.m. and after 3 p.m. to avoid peak times. Details of the centres’ opening hours are available on www.ndls.iealong with all the necessary application forms and frequently asked questions. It is not practical to add more online appointment slots for booking as this will take away from the walk-in slots. There is no way to differentiate between a normal licence renewal and an exchange licence when booking an appointment online. This could cause significant queues if the online slots are taken up by less urgent renewals versus the exchanges. As a consequence, booking availability has been increased from four to six weeks ahead to facilitate those who may be renewing a licence or learner permit and are not in an immediate rush. This has helped to reduce the pressure and allow more walk-in slots for exchange applications.

It is not possible to hand in a UK driving licence at a NDLS centre and walk out with an Irish licence. Due diligence must be completed to make sure the licence holder is entitled to the category of licence that is on their licence and this could require contacting the original licensing authority to ensure that there are no endorsements or disqualifications on the licence. Ireland, as an EU member state, is obliged under Directive 2006/126/EC to carry out such due diligence when giving consideration to exchanging a driving licence for an EU member state licence.

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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That is not the reply people are looking for. That is a by-the-book response written by some civil servant. I wish to drill down further. The Minister has said some legislation could be introduced on this. If the Houses are able to bring through Brexit legislation in one week I am damn sure we could bring through some legislation, on which we would be ready to press the button, to make sure there is agreement on this matter between Ireland and the UK.

The Minister referred to some numbers in his reply, but if we consider the number of centres in the State it equates to barely one person in each centre who is looking after this. If a driver has applied will the Minister clarify whether or not he or she will have to re-sit the driving test? Can a driver drive if he or she does not have the new licence? I want these points clarified. Deputies have listened to the people who have been going to these centres.

We have heard that people had to wait three and four hours in a queue but the place then closed. The Minister indicated the opening hours. My understanding is that 11,000 licences have been issued and that 4,000 are being processed. There is a huge number of people looking for licences. Will the Minister bring a little common sense to this scenario and give until the end of April or a similar period to ensure there will be no panic among those looking for licences? The reality on the ground is very different from what some civil servant wrote for the Minister to read in the House. Will he clarify whether he can give a grace period for the month of April to ensure people will be in line? I am hearing that they will not be able to drive to work if they still have an English licence or have yet to get back their licence. I need to have that matter clarified. Can we bring the legislation through the Dáil quickly before that date to ensure there will be no problem? Will one have to sit a test if this is not done by the end of April? Can the Minister extend the period, which is the most important aspect?

Shane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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I thank the Deputy for his passion. All I can state about the accusation that there are vast queues and great difficulties is that that is not the report I am getting. It is absolutely the case there has been a build-up, as the Deputy said. There are numbers building up at peak hours as one might expect when a dramatic event like this happens. There are more people turning up for walk-in slots, while more people are applying for appointments. However, the figures I have for yesterday are as follows. In Castlebar four people were turned away, while in Cavan one person was. In Ennis, Roscommon, the Deputy's county, and Athlone no one was turned away. In Carrick-on-Shannon two people were waiting, while in Clarehall three were waiting and the centre was open until 6 p.m. In Drogheda, Cork and Galway there were no one waiting. I could keep going, but I guess that the Deputy does not for one second suggest the figures I am getting have been falsified or are in any way misleading. They do not, however, accord with the image he has built of vast queues of frustrated people at doors. He is right - some people have to wait, but we are in an unprecedented situation. I would have thought that instead of making wild accusations about civil servants who are producing accurate figures, he would have congratulated me on the fact that-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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Congratulate the Minister on what?

Shane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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I am about to tell the Deputy. He should congratulate me on the fact that a situation like this is being dealt with adequately by opening for much longer hours to 6 p.m. and from an earlier start time. The fact that centres are allocating a large number of extra staff is something for which we must applaud them. They are dealing with a problem which has emerged very suddenly.