Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent)
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I submitted this matter on Tuesday and Wednesday of last week. It is being taken today, but it was tabled on the back of the strike action taken on 18 January. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, will be well aware of the situation.

The 1,250 workers - community employment, CE ,supervisors and assistant supervisors - to whom this matter relates are affected by not having occupational pensions. The Labour Court recommendation of 2008 stated that they should have such pensions. Some 11 years later they are still waiting for those pensions. In 2015, the workers in question received a commitment from the then Government to the effect that the issue would be resolved. That Government left office and, in 2016, the current Government, of which the Minister of State is a member, came into power with Fianna Fáil. The matter to which I refer has been stuck in limbo during that period. Fianna Fáil committed to ensure a pension scheme as part of the confidence and supply agreement and that has not happened yet either. Both unions involved, SIPTU and Fórsa, have written to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform about this matter on numerous occasions.

Some 250 supervisors have retired since 2008. These 250 individuals are on statutory redundancy payments only. Up to 40 supervisors retire each year. It is disgraceful that these workers do not have a pension other than the statutory pension. The supervisors and assistant supervisors have a clear pay link with managers, instructors and administrative staff in community training workshops and they are seeking a defined pension scheme similar to that which applies to these grades.

The Government is ignoring the Labour Court recommendation. Those on the opposite side of the House have always stated that they support the Labour Court recommendations, as has proven to be the case in the context of the issues relating to nurses, midwives and psychiatric nurses. I ask the Minister of State to provide a commitment that he will meet these workers and their representatives to discuss how this matter can be dealt with.

The Department cannot keep hiding behind the fact that these are independent groups and acting as a shadow employer. It is bad practice to hide behind the structures of the CE schemes. The existence of employer sponsored occupational pensions marks out decent employers. I am raising with the Minister of State the fact that the Government is being a bad employer by not addressing the issue that these workers desperately need addressed.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Joan Collins for agreeing to reschedule this matter to today. It was picked on Thursday last and, because I was obliged to attend a funeral, it was postponed with the Deputy's consent.

I am taking this matter on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Donohoe, and I will bring any points raised to his attention. I am aware that the issue has been a source of concern to supervisors for a long time. I am also aware that it has been raised here in the Dáil by successive Deputies to successive Ministers. The commitment, dedication and hard work of CE supervisors and assistant supervisors, who are employees of organisations in the community and voluntary sector, is greatly appreciated by the Government and all sides of the House.

The Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection assumed responsibility for the CE programme from FÁS in January 2012. In July 2008, IMPACT and SIPTU brought a claim to the Labour Court seeking Exchequer-funded pension provision for community employment supervisors and assistant supervisors. The outcome was a Labour Court recommendation that FÁS, as the recognised funding agency, should fund the pension provision. In the context of this recommendation, the position has always been that neither FÁS nor the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection is the employer and it is not possible for the State to providing funding for such a scheme to employees of private companies even if those companies are, or were, reliant on State funding.

The community sector high-level forum, which was reinstated in 2015, includes representatives from Departments and statutory agencies and union representatives. The forum has since met on several occasions.

At a meeting in April 2017, the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform outlined its intention to conduct a detailed scoping exercise in order to comprehensively examine and assess the full potential implications of the issues that Deputy Joan Collins and others have raised. This scoping exercise was carried out with input from the Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Service, IGEES, on the potential costs of providing Exchequer support for the establishment of such a pension scheme for employees across the community and voluntary sector. The exercise clearly illustrated that the matter presents extremely difficult and significant issues for the Exchequer, with a potential cost to the State of €188 million per annum in respect of funding to enable an employer pension contribution in State-funded community and voluntary organisations, excluding any provision for immediate ex gratialump sum payment of pension as sought, which could, depending on the size of the sector, entail a further Exchequer cost of up to €318 million.

While the issue at hand relates to CE supervisors and assistant supervisor who, I recognise, feel aggrieved, these are a group within the wider community and voluntary sector. Any provision of funding for such a scheme in respect of employees could have a knock-on effect for other schemes. Therefore, the question of the pension provision for employees in the community and voluntary sector is one which is of relevance to a potentially large number of individuals far greater than those who, I know, are anxious in this sector.

Finally, it is worth noting that the issue has been dealt with by successive Ministers for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform in three Governments since 2008. I will bring to the attention of the Minister the points that Deputy Joan Collins has raised and of which I have made note. If it would be of benefit for the Deputy to have a meeting with officials from the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, I will arrange it.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, Independent)
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I would definitely take up that offer. I thank the Minister of State.

The Labour Court not only made a recommendation in 2008, it also made one on 16 March 2016 in respect of an employee who worked for Tipperary Hostel Limited. The Labour Court gave a ruling in that case as well. Having considered the oral and written submissions from both parties, the court recommended an ex gratiapayment of three week's pay per year of service over and above the statutory redundancy payment already paid should now be paid to the claimant. The Labour court also noted that due to the financial circumstances of the organisation, it did not have the funds to pay this amount out of its own resources and recommended that the parties should co-operate in seeking the necessary funds from the funding agency to discharge the amount recommended.

There is a responsibility on the Government. The Minister of State cannot say that the Government cannot pay these workers proper pensions because it will cost too much. It is either right or it is wrong. They are either entitled to their pensions or they are not. That is what we have to deal with here. If it will cost money, then so be it.

I do not accept the Department hiding behind the fact that these are private companies, etc. The workers are paid by the State. The CE schemes are run on behalf of the State in some of the most vulnerable areas. As the Minister of State indicated, those involved do good work. They do not need tea and sympathy. They need hard bucks because, as good workers, they are entitled to them. Ms Patricia King came out strongly on this matter last week.

She said it was bad employer practice not to respect workers and give them the pension they deserve. I would like to meet representatives in the Department about this. System supervisors have a clear pay link with managers, instructors and administrative staff in community training workshops and they get a pension, so why are these workers not getting a pension? It is something we could look at in more detail.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy referred to a 2016 case and I will bring it to the attention of the Minister. I am sure the Deputy has heard the reply umpteen times from successive people who have had to stand up and respond to the question, and it relates to the definition of "public servant". That relates to the issue of how people are paid. I omitted to say that in the aftermath of the community sector high level forum being established under the Lansdowne Road agreement in 2015, there were discussions with Fórsa, which was then IMPACT, PSEU and CPSU. It was chaired by an assistant secretary and membership included a wide range of Departments, including those relating to employment affairs, social protection, health, education and skills, housing, planning and local government. Pobal, as the agency responsible, and others were also involved.

As I said at the outset, I am here to listen and respond on behalf of the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and my colleague, the Minister, Deputy Donohoe. I have noted the issues raised by the Deputy and suggested that an engagement between her and officials in the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform might be of benefit. I will take back the issue, discuss it with the Minister, and we will revert to the Deputy in due course.