Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the recent meeting of the British-Irish Council. [48021/18]

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I attended the 31st British-Irish Council, BIC, Summit in the Isle of Man on Friday, 9 November, hosted by Chief Minister Howard Quale. I was accompanied by the Minister of State with responsibility for natural resources, community affairs and digital development, Deputy Sean Canney.

The discussion at the summit covered political developments for administrations since the last summit in June, including on the implications of Brexit, particularly for relationships across the islands and all seven jurisdictions. The council also discussed the current political situation in Northern Ireland and I restated my regret that Northern Ireland was not represented at the meeting. In fact, everyone expressed their regret that the Deputy First Minister and First Minister of Northern Ireland were not present because they do not exist. That was the strong view around the table.

The council also endorsed plans for a future programme of work for the council’s digital inclusion work sector. The Minister of State, Deputy Canney, took part in a thematic discussion on the subject of digital inclusion. Topics covered included digital rights, digital skills and literacy and partnership working between the BIC Administrations.

Cabinet Office Minister, Mr. David Lidington, MP, and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Ms Karen Bradley, MP, attended the summit meeting for the UK Government, along with the First Ministers of Scotland and Wales and the Chief Ministers of Guernsey and Jersey. I took the opportunity to have bilateral discussions with First Minister Carwyn Jones and First Minister Nicola Sturgeon. In both meetings we exchanged views on issues of mutual interest and continued co-operation with discussions focusing mainly on Brexit and its impacts on business and citizens and on developments in Westminster and Brussels. I wished First Minister Jones well in his future because it was the occasion of his last BIC summit because he will step down as leader of the Welsh Labour Party and First Minister on 11 December.

I also held brief discussions with David Lidington on Brexit and on the absence of an agreement between the parties in the Northern Ireland Executive. I underlined the importance of the restoration of the institutions in the context of the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement and undertook to continue to work with the British Government to assist the Northern parties to achieve this outcome.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach referred to full restoration of the institutions in line with the full implementation of the Good Friday Agreement. That may rhetorically be the Taoiseach's position, but it is not his position politically. Week on week, he amplifies that reality when he takes to his feet in this House. I am not going to waste the time that I have on tit-for-tat politics.

Brexit has thrown up a whole myriad of legislative and logistical issues, one of which is future EU representation in the European Parliament for citizens in the North, whom the Taoiseach cares deeply about. Sinn Féin and others have pressed to ensure citizens in the North are afforded a means of maintaining representation in the parliament, whether through the allocation of seats to the North, the two additional seats that were afforded to this State, or indeed by extension of the franchise. I see a report in The Irish Timesyesterday which states that an internal Government note has been prepared on this matter and it would appear that these suggestions have been dismissed. If that is true, I think it is regrettable. In fact, it does not chime at all with the Taoiseach's pledge that no one in the North would ever again be left behind. Is there such a note? Does it dismiss these propositions? Has it been accepted by Government and will the Taoiseach publish it?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The BIC meeting last month was, unfortunately, a reminder of just how bad things are in the operations of the agreed structures of the 1998 Good Friday Agreement. Yet again there was no democratic voice for Northern Ireland at the meeting because of the continued suspension of the Assembly and Executive. We were then told that Sinn Féin's concerns about the operations of a heating scheme mean that the people of Northern Ireland have no voice at these or any other discussions about the future of relations on these islands.

When a scandal happens, it should never bring down the edifice of Government or Parliament. It is incomprehensible when looked at it in that context. A scandal should be dealt with, rather than bringing down the whole operation.

More importantly, there is no evidence from the communiqué or any of the press conferences that there were substantive discussions about the need for much more active and constructive relations. I take on board what the Taoiseach has just said, but Fianna Fáil proposed over two years ago after the result of the Brexit referendum that there is a need to replace the current constant east-west contact which happens between the UK and Irish Governments in European Union forums with something which stops the inevitable drift which will happen if we rely on current approaches. The common travel area and mutual recognition of rights and other areas cannot function without constant interactions between the two Governments.

I do not think the British-Irish Council, as it currently works, is the answer. Something far more dynamic and focused on urgent issues is required. At the time, I proposed something like the Nordic Council, which is very interesting. It has a permanent secretariat. It includes countries in the region that are members of the European Union and countries that are not. There is no doubt that there will be an issue with British-Irish relations after Brexit. We have developed familiar and frequent contacts in the past 40 years in going to various meetings in Brussels. In an informal way, that has been of significant assistance to relations between Ireland and the United Kingdom which I do not think we should understate. Given the urgency of this issue, we need to work substantively on the idea of what will replace the frequency, level and quality of contacts we have enjoyed with British Ministers and officials in the context of the European Union. With what will we replace it? Is the existing British-Irish Council the correct forum? Is it substantive enough to meet the requirements I have mentioned? I got an indication from the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach that they were coming around to this view. I am interested in hearing the Taoiseach's perspective.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is not surprising that Brexit was the main topic of conversation and the main focus of the discussion. Since June 2016, the British Parliament has been deadlocked on the question of Brexit. After two and a half years of wrangling, we still have no solution that we believe will command a majority at Westminster. Despite the wishes of most Members of this House, there is a growing likelihood that the deal negotiated will not command a majority in the House of Commons next week. There is certainly no majority for a no-deal scenario. The only thing on which the British Parliament seems to agree is the need for more information before MPs make up their minds. Obviously, it is an internal matter for the British Parliament, but there is a real risk that it will be unable to agree on anything before March 2019. That could mean a disorderly exit by the United Kingdom from the European Union, perhaps by accident more than by design. Having discussed these matters at some length, we all agree that that would be disastrous for Ireland. I agree that we cannot interfere in any way in the British decision-making process. It would probably be counter-productive to do so, but if it becomes apparent that more time is needed to enable a rational decision to be arrived at, what will the Taoiseach's attitude be? The Advocate General of the European Court of Justice decided yesterday that the United Kingdom could, of its own volition, withdraw the Article 50 application. We are less clear, however, on the postponement of the Article 50 process. If the view of the House of Commons is that more time is needed, will the Government support a postponement of the Article 50 process? What, in the Taoiseach's view, would be the attitude of the other 26 member states to such a proposal?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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One of the more frustrating aspects of the endless finger-pointing that has been a feature of the Brexit debate is that issues which have a real day-to-day impact on people in the North, particularly those who are vulnerable and less well off, are being completely forgotten. The UK Welfare Reform Act 2012 was one of the most obnoxious pieces of legislation to come from Westminster. It was passed at Stormont with the support of Sinn Féin and the DUP. The impact of this really horrific piece of austerity is being felt by some of the most vulnerable people in the North. This austerity legislation affects all of Britain. The personal independence payment, PIP, assessment is truly obnoxious. When people need to renew their payments, they have to fill in forms that ask them questions like "are you incontinent?" and "can you wash youself?" Those who are embarrassed by such questions and would rather not answer them can have their payments cut off. I do not know whether other Deputies have seen the Ken Loach film "I, Daniel Blake". This is the incarnation of the stuff passed at Stormont, but it is now being implemented. Somebody with stage 4 cancer recently had their PIP payment cut off. Someone else who was shot in the head at the age of 15 years and has been suffering from depression ever since has been denied their payment. A similar point can be made about universal credit, another so-called welfare reform. Incredibly, one receives welfare payments for up to two children only. If someone has more than two, he or she cannot receive a welfare payment for the third or fourth child unless he or she has been a product of rape. The stuff being imposed in the North is absolutely incredible. Are these matters discussed at the British-Irish Council? They are having a real impact on some of the most vulnerable people in the North in the most obnoxious way.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I presume we have all been following developments in the House of Commons in recent days. I refer, for example, to the publication of the legal advice earlier today. There is a sense of bewilderment. It seems that the backstop is the focus of all of their attention. It seems that in many ways it is being used as a proxy for the real internal war between those who want a hard Brexit and those who want a soft Brexit. In that regard, it is interesting to note that the Taoiseach would have had an opportunity to engage in informal discussions at the British-Irish Council with the leader of the Welsh Labour Party. I presume he could easily have used that opportunity to articulate the concerns of his party. The same point can be made in the case of Mr. Lidington. Did they raise fundamental concerns about the backstop? If so, what did they say? What is the argument we have to counter or challenge? It is clear from our perspective that the backstop embodies the protections delivered by the Good Friday Agreement. I am interested in knowing whether this matter was raised by representatives of the Labour Party or the Conservatives at the British-Irish Council and, if so, what is their real concern?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I would like to make a brief point about North-South relations in the context of what has been said about PIP assessments. I have seen the Ken Loach film mentioned. I admire Ken Loach and have seen his films during the years. The situation depicted in the film in question would never arise in Ireland. Deputies will recall that the main character had worked all of his life. He became a widower when his wife died following a terminal illness. As every Deputy in the House knows, under our system, he would entirely qualify on a paid basis for a full widower's pension, which, of course, is much more substantial in the Republic than in the North or the rest of the United Kingdom. I am concerned that people might become frightened as they listen to the examples being given. There should be no suggestion the people who work in our social protection system handle their clients in the same way as has happened in the United Kingdom. It should be mentioned that much of this activity in the United Kingdom is outsourced, whereas very little of it is outsourced here. In fairness, Ken Loach's system is striking in what it teaches us about the United Kingdom. I assure Deputy Boyd Barrett, in case he is advising people, that the system in Ireland is totally different.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I was talking about the North.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It was clear that the Deputy was talking about the North.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputies for their questions. Deputy McDonald asked about representation for Northern Ireland in the European Parliament after Brexit. The sad reality is that after Brexit, Northern Ireland will no longer be part of the European Union. We hope it is the case that if the withdrawal agreement is ratified, important elements of EU law and regulations will continue to apply in Northern Ireland, but that will not change the fact that the United Kingdom as a whole will leave the European Union. Northern Ireland, against the will of the majority in it, is being taken out of the European Union and will leave with the rest of the United Kingdom. No non-EU country or territory has representation in the European Parliament.

Provision is made for accession countries to have observers but it is not the case that any non-EU country or non-EU territory is represented in the European Parliament. An issue could arise whereby, similar to accession countries, Northern Ireland could have observers in the European Parliament, perhaps contributing to the debate, particularly when it comes to rules and regulations that may apply to Northern Ireland. One of the difficulties I have is it is not something we can impose on Northern Ireland from here. It has to be something that a Northern Ireland Executive or Assembly seeks. We do our best on all occasions to preserve the rights of EU citizens who will be living in Northern Ireland after Brexit and to maximise the freedoms and benefits they will continue to receive. We are slightly weakened by the fact it is the Government in Dublin asking for those things and not a Northern Ireland Assembly or Executive. In many cases, Northern Ireland elected representatives are saying they do not want them. It has definitely weakened our position.

It is important to make a distinction between citizens' rights and rights that are linked to residency. We have ensured Irish citizens living in Northern Ireland will continue to be EU citizens and have all the rights that come with EU citizenship. That is the right to travel freely, work, study and access education in any part of the European Union. An Irish citizen who lives in Northern Ireland, for example, Belfast or Derry, will be able to work in Berlin, study in Athens and travel freely to Spain. A British citizen living in Belfast might not be able to do those things. He or she might need a work visa or work permit or some other sort of permission to do those things. Irish citizens in Northern Ireland, by virtue of being EU citizens, will continue to have all the rights that are attached to citizenship.

However, there are some rights that are linked to residency in the same way an Irish citizen living in Canada does not have the same rights as an Irish citizen living in Ireland. Rights that are linked to residency will be more difficult to secure but we want to secure them. We have had some positive discussions on this. The rights we are seeking to secure are the ability of Irish citizens in Northern Ireland to continue to participate in programmes such as Erasmus and to continue to benefit from the European health insurance card. We are getting a good hearing on those things in the European Union. We would have a much better chance of achieving them if there was a deputy First Minister and First Minister from Northern Ireland also looking for them. It would put us in a much stronger position.