Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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42. To ask the Minister for Education and Skills when he will carry out a review of his Department's design-and-build programme of school builds; if this will be carried out by an independent entity; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [49503/18]

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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This question is related to one answered earlier. It concerns the design-and-build programme, which has been in the news recently, and what the Department is doing to determine the cause of the problem.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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I do not know whether the Deputy was listening to me when responding earlier. The answer to this question is a little different. It is a variation of the previous response so I will put it on the record.

The safety of the school students and staff has been my priority from when the initial invasive work was done in Ardgillan on 19 October. It continues to be my overriding priority. I shall give a summary of the outcome. Nineteen schools were cleared to open in full without any precautionary works, 19 were enabled to open in full following external precautionary measures in the form of fencing around all or part of the building and protective decking, and three were enabled to open, initially at ground floor level only, following the implementation of both internal and external precautionary measures. The latter relates to two schools in Tyrrelstown and Gaelscoil Eiscir Riada in Lucan. One building, namely phase 1 of Ardgillan Community College, closed completely.

Internal precautionary works are currently ongoing on the upper floors of the three schools that were opened initially at ground floor levels only. I assure the Deputy that the Department's priority is to have these works completed to enable all three schools to open fully and the students who were temporarily decanted off site to return in the coming weeks. I acknowledge the impact this has had on parents, staff and boards of management in recent weeks. I thank them not only for their patience and understanding but also for their proactivity. They have been proactive in ensuring whatever measures needed to be put in place would be put in place. I was in Tyrrelstown last week. I watched how the work was organised. It included gardaí, stewards and staff decanting students on a day-to-day basis in the rain. It was exceptional work in a short period.

Let me focus on what happens next. We will move as quickly as possible to the next phase, which is to initiate more detailed structural investigations in all 42 schools, even the 19 that did not have any structural issues. Following this, the objective is to implement the permanent remediation works required.

It is also my intention to initiate an independent review of the Department's design-and-build programme, to include aspects such as procurement, quality control, workmanship and oversight, examining aspects both before and after the implementation of the amended building control regulations in 2014. This will be an independent review conducted by a person or entity outside the Department. This review will be informed by the more detailed structural investigations to be carried out in the next phase of the programme.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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I thank the Minister for his response. The final part is important and the key. There is no doubt that the schools have done great work in opening and dealing with the issues that have arisen. The fact, however, is that these are brand-new schools and they should not have to deal with these issues. That also has to be recognised by the Department. As the Minister said, more than half of the 42 schools built by the company concerned, Western Building Systems, have been confirmed as needing remediation work or at least precautionary protective measures pending further investigation. I am thankful the Educate Together school in Letterkenny was one of the schools that showed no problems when reviewed and was able to resume activity. It is clear, however, that the Department's design-and-build programme was compromised in some way or another, and that is the crux of the problem. It might have been through not thoroughly investigating companies in the procurement process prior to signing the contract or through not inspecting buildings properly.

I have seen from previous commentary that questions remain as to who is ultimately responsible. That is what we need to get to. Ultimately, the Department is responsible because it is the procurement body and it is paying. The people are not getting what they are paying for and this has to be addressed and examined by the Department. Changes have to be put in place to make sure contractors comply with what is required of them.

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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I agree with the Deputy's point on responsibility to the taxpayer. We are in a responsible position and have to ensure not only that there is value for money but also that if we are sending young people into schools, they are safe. My officials were working in the understanding that the schools were safe structurally. There is a massive break of trust in terms of who signed off and who was ultimately responsible.

That is why I want the independent review to examine all aspects of the process, beginning with procurement. The idea that we must have people looking over the shoulder of a bricklayer to check whether wall ties have been installed is not normal in construction. There must be a degree of responsibility. However, if checks are necessary before the cavity walls are closed to ensure wall ties are of the right place and number, that will be done.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal, Independent)
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It probably will have to be done. The Department has been neglectful in regard to such checks.

The constant drive always to get projects constructed as cheaply as possible is at the root of this problem. These schools will no longer be value for money in the light of the costs incurred in recent months for investigations and remedial works. None of that was considered when the cheapest possible tender was selected. These schools are ultimately going to prove very expensive as a result of the short-term view taken in opting for the cheapest tender when the priority should have been for the Minister to ensure that the schools were built to the proper standard. Schools offer value for money when they operate for 20 years without requiring additional work to counteract substandard work carried out under the contract. A low-cost tender does not necessarily indicate value for money. That is the problem.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Two other Deputies have indicated to speak on this issue. I will allow them to comment briefly but the time allocated for the question has almost elapsed.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Has the Minister an estimate of the cost which will be borne by the Department even in the case of future legal proceedings? Does he propose to introduce a Supplementary Estimate to cover the cost of the works on the schools? We do not want a further disaster in terms of the existing building programme being further delayed due to the significant amount of remediation work involved. As the Minister is aware having visited them, the schools in my locality have been wrapped. A massive amount of work is being done on them.

Thomas Byrne (Meath East, Fianna Fail)
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When I and my colleague, Deputy O'Loughlin, met the Minister and his officials over the mid-term break at a very helpful meeting to which members of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Education and Skills were invited, I got the impression that a permanent fix would in place by now or that we would know what was happening in that regard. There is a deficit of information regarding a permanent fix for these school building projects. Parents are asking me what is happening. They are not reassured by the temporary fixes that are in place. Has the timetable slipped considerably in that regard?

Joe McHugh (Donegal, Fine Gael)
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On the point raised by Deputy Pringle regarding culpability and responsibility, it is very important to point out that under the 2014 legislation and previously ultimate responsibility lies with the contractor and design team. There has been an average 18% increase in the cost of private sector construction, including of houses, hotels and apartment blocks, because of the delay involved in ensuring a fire officer inspects the project and ensures every step has been properly completed

On the speed of the works, many of them were built within a 24 to 26 week period. That is not to say that rapid build cannot be done properly. Rapid build construction is being employed to deal with the housing crisis and for several student accommodation projects, as was raised earlier. It works if it is done properly. The message that must go out is that whether a building is to be completed in 24, 36 or 42 weeks, it must be done properly. There was obviously carelessness and unacceptable standards in the construction of these schools.

A Supplementary Estimate was submitted for the Department of Education and Skills. We do not have a specific figure for the costs because we must first undertake a comprehensive assessment of all 42 schools.

In regard to the timeframe that Deputy Byrne mentioned, I refer to the decanting of students from Gaelscoil Eiscir Riada in Lucan and the two schools in Tyrellstown. It was envisaged that the works on the first and second floors would be completed as a priority in the coming weeks. That work is continuing, with working hours extended after 3 p.m. and at weekends. We hope to get those students back into their schools.

The second piece of work, which is significant, will be a comprehensive analysis. We have set up a new section in the building unit to deal with it. Once that has been completed, we will maximise the holiday period to progress any work that is required.