Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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63. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence his views on the concerns that Ireland must make commitments to military spending under PESCO; and his further views on whether extra resources should be prioritised in areas other than military hardware in view of the discontent among some members of the Defence Forces in relation to pay and conditions. [48344/18]

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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My question is to ask the Minister of State his views on the concerns that Ireland must make commitments to military spending under PESCO; and his further views on whether extra resources should be prioritised in areas other than military hardware in view of the discontent among some members of the Defence Forces in respect of pay and conditions.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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With regard to defence spending, Government policy is defined within the parameters of our national budgetary process and the role of Dáil Éireann. Within the European Union, it is accepted that defence and security is a national competence, including national spending on defence and security. We alone continue to decide on defence investment and deployment of our Defence Forces.

As part of Ireland's participation in Permanent Structured Cooperation, PESCO, which we joined in December 2017, Ireland has committed to increase our defence budgets regularly in real terms.

It should be noted that "regularly" does not mean "annually" but in the medium term. The allocations for defence announced in budget 2019 mean that Ireland's defence expenditure will increase in real terms in the coming three years.

Joining PESCO does not involve an additional cost to the Exchequer. Additional costs may arise in respect of participation in specific PESCO projects similar to the case where the Defence Forces participate in European Defence Agency projects. The projects where Ireland has confirmed our participation relate to the ongoing development of Defence Forces' capabilities for peace support and crisis management operations. Costs associated with participation in these projects will be incurred in the normal course and will, therefore, be met from within the defence Vote.

Similar to other sectors in the public service, the pay of Permanent Defence Force personnel was reduced as one of the measures to assist in stabilising the national finances during the financial crisis. The recovery in the economy has provided the fiscal resources to provide for a fair and sustainable recovery in public service pay scales. Pay is being restored for members of the Defence Forces and other public servants in accordance with public sector pay agreements. The focus of the increases is weighted in favour of those on lower pay. Members of the Permanent Defence Force have received the pay increases due under the Lansdowne Road agreement. In addition, in 2017, following negotiations with PDFORRA, improved pay scales for general service recruits and privates who joined the Permanent Defence Force after 1 January 2013 were implemented.

In 2016 the Government established the Public Service Pay Commission to provide objective advice for it on public service pay policy. Following the publication of the Public Service Pay Commission's report in May 2017, the Government initiated negotiations on an extension to the Lansdowne Road agreement. The public service stability agreement 2018 to 2020 provides for increases in pay, ranging from 6.2% to 7.4%, over the lifetime of the agreement. The focus of the increases is weighted in favour of those on lower pay. The increases due from 1 January and 1 October 2018 have been paid to Permanent Defence Force personnel. Further increases in pay are scheduled for 2019 and 2020.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House.

By the end of the current public service pay agreement the pay of all public servants, including members of the Defence Forces, earning under €70,000 per annum will have been restored to pre-FEMPI legislation levels. The restoration of the 5% reduction in allowances cut under the FEMPI legislation is also scheduled in the agreement. New entrants who joined the Defence Forces since 2011 will also benefit from the measures recently announced on interventions at points 4 and 8 of the relevant pay scales for all such new entrants to the public service. This measure, should it be accepted by the Permanent Defence Force representative associations, will be effective from 1 March 2019.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I acknowledge that there are some positives in the reply of the Minister of State, but it was rather vague on PESCO spending. I want to go back to a report that was debated in the European Parliament in May on strengthening EU-NATO relations. It was adopted by the Parliament by 439 votes to 183, with four Irish MEPs voting against it and six abstaining, including the four Fine Gael MEPs. The report emphasised PESCO's complementarity with NATO and that EU member states should be capable of launching autonomous military missions where NATO was not willing to act. The EU army, also known as PESCO, is a proxy of NATO policy. When we look at those calling for a European army such as President Macron and Mrs. Merkel, they are major or senior NATO players. The increase in spending could mean that we would spend as much as NATO countries contribute, but the ethos of our armed forces is peacekeeping, humanitarian operations and the preservation of life and it contributes to our international reputation. Will the Oireachtas have an opportunity to debate the same report as that debated by the European Parliament? There is a contradiction, as there are concerns the increase in military spending will not benefit our military. When we look at the overall EU budget, €200 billion is spent annually on defence, of which we could be part.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It is a matter for the House, not me, if Members want to debate a document. I have no problem in coming before the House. Ireland's participation in the Permanent Structured Cooperation, PESCO, arrangement has no implications for its policy on military neutrality. It is very important that I point this out to the Deputy. The PESCO projects in which we are participating will not require me to seek additional money from the Government. The money will come from existing resources. The projects in which we are participating are the European Union training mission competence centre project, TMCC, which aims to improve the availability and interoperability of specific skills and the professionalism of personal trainers for EU training missions in participating member states and the project to upgrade maritime surveillance which aims to integrate land based surveillance systems. These projects will improve the capability of members of the Defence Forces.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State. It would be good to have the debate because the matter is central to our policy on neutrality. Are these issues raised when the Minister of State attends meetings at European level? The figure of €200 billion being spent by the European Union on defence is staggering. When we campaign for a seat on the UN Security Council, we use our neutrality as a selling point. We have a reputation that is far greater than our size or population would indicate. We need to be a stronger voice on defence matters and in pointing to where extra finance is really needed. We played a huge role in drawing up the sustainable development goals and getting agreement on them. It will take huge resources to implement them and make them realisable. Our EU partners that are calling for a European army are those with the biggest arms trades. They are the ones that will benefit from increased defence spending. We know what bigger armies lead to. We only have to look at what happened in Germany in the 1930s. They lead to war and do not prevent it.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy mentioned a European army. No such proposals will come from this side of the House. The Deputy knows what is provided for in the Lisbon treaty on a European army. It would have to be subject to a referendum in Ireland. The Government is not stating we will join a European army. This has been a huge debate in Europe for many years, particularly when comments were made at Armistice ceremonies last week and the week before. We are using our position on neutrality when it comes to winning a seat on the UN Security Council. I was at the launch of our campaign earlier this year in New York. We are looking at the work done by the Defence Forces on blue hat and overseas peacekeeping missions. Members of the Defence Forces have a long and proud tradition of participating in blue hat missions. Long may this continue because they do the country proud. They serve Ireland with distinction and pride.