Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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62. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the measures he is taking to deal with the crisis in the Defence Forces in respect of the retention and recruitment of staff, for example, the basic operations of the Naval Service in its fishery protection role; and if he will review the policy in respect of recognition of representative associations in the Defence Forces as a mechanism to deal with some aspects of this crisis. [48587/18]

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I think the Minister of State is probably trying to acknowledge, without using the word "crisis", that there is a crisis in recruitment and retention in the Defence Forces, including the Naval Service and Air Corps. If he used the word, he could at least start to deal with the crisis in a realistic way. Talking about recruiting specialists and the financial resources being available to bring the numbers back up to 9,500 is not looking reality in the face. I want to ask about pay policy, recognition for the Defence Forces and how the Minister of State intends dealing with the crisis in a realistic, meaningful way.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's question relates to the Naval Service in its fishery protection role and so on.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That is given as an example.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is the question the Deputy asked.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I used the term "for example".

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State to reply.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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As I have previously outlined, the Naval Service continues to carry out its sea fishery protection duties. The most recent figures provided by the military authorities give the whole-time equivalent strength of the Permanent Defence Force, PDF, as just below 9,000 personnel. The establishment for the Naval Service is 1,094 personnel. The current strength of the Naval Service is just below 1,000 personnel. The number of personnel departing the Naval Service can fluctuate year on year. While the level of turnover may exceed other areas of the public service, this is a feature of military organisations.

Recruitment to the Permanent Defence Force has continued in 2018 and, as I have previously outlined, particular challenges exist in recruiting and retaining certain specialists. I understand that the retention of such specialists, for example, pilots, has proved challenging for many military forces internationally and it is not unique to Ireland. A range of alternative recruitment approaches are being developed aimed at addressing vacancies in specialist areas. My Department has introduced a scheme which permits former officers with specialist skills to re-enter the PDF and arrangements are in train to provide a similar scheme for former enlisted personnel. Currently, there is direct entry provision for those with professional qualifications which is utilised for the recruitment of medical officers and engineers. A working group is examining the scope for greater use of such direct entry recruitment for certain specialist positions.

As the Deputy will be aware, the Public Service Pay Commission has been tasked with examining recruitment and retention issues in the Defence Forces organisation and requested material has been forwarded to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. I am very much in favour of allowing the commission to undertake its analysis objectively and independently, and I do not wish to pre-empt that process. When the Public Service Pay Commission reports, its findings will be considered at that point.

With regard to other retention measures, there are a range of actions outlined in the White Paper on Defence of 2015 which are aimed at enhancing the capabilities of the Defence Forces.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

These include human resources initiatives which impact on retention such as providing career development opportunities and accreditation. The criteria for extending service beyond 12 years have been revised and this has ensured that personnel who would have had to depart could remain. An examination of age profiles for enlisted personnel has been prioritised and this is being progressed. A gap analysis of skill sets in the Permanent Defence Force has also been brought forward. In addition, the military authorities have introduced further initiatives to enhance work-life balance and this is also to be welcomed.

The conciliation and arbitration, CA, scheme for members of the Permanent Defence Force provides an established mechanism for the PDF representative associations to engage with the official side. The scheme has provided the framework to progress many successful negotiated agreements between defence management and the PDF representative associations. I initiated a fundamental review of the scheme and have recently received the report from the independent chair. Currently, the parties to the scheme are considering the process for implementing the recommendations contained in this report. The Government is committed to retaining the capacity of the Defence Forces to operate effectively across all roles and to undertake the tasks laid down by Government both at home and overseas.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I cited sea fisheries as an example. The Minister of State should have read the question carefully. Whoever called his officials mandarins was correct. My question is about the retention and recruitment of staff and the current policy in respect of recognition of representative associations of the Defence Forces.

PDFORRA recently took the Government to court over the Organisation of Working Time Act. Is the Minister of State not ashamed and embarrassed that he had to be taken to court for the Defence Forces to have their basic working rights enforced? Imagine that. The Government has legislation on workers' rights but will not implement it for the Defence Forces or members of the Naval Service and Air Corps. How demoralised does the Minister of State want to make these people? The figures are available for the number of people who are buying their way out of the most demoralised, low paid job in the public sector, and the Minister of State sits in denial as if he was going on his holidays somewhere. What is going on here is an absolute scandal. Members of the Naval Service, Army and Air Corps are being treated like dirt by the Government in many aspects of how they have to live their lives. They cannot acquire homes. They are being pushed out of married quarters in the most awful conditions in barracks such as Cathal Brugha Barracks. I refer in particular to low pay and the lack of recognition for the trade union, PDFORRA. The Minister of State's continued denial of the right to union recognition is not serving him well.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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On the recognition issue, if the Deputy read the published report on the new CA scheme, she might be able to educate herself around rights. She spoke about pay. Members of the Defence Forces, like all members of the public service, have received pay increases under the Lansdowne Road agreement and the public service stability programme. There is no use the Deputy nodding her head when I am only telling her the facts. Further pay increases took effect on 1 January and 1 October this year and by 2020 all those on a salary in excess of €70,000 will have their pay fully restored to pre-FEMPI levels. In parallel, I increased salaries to address the disparity between pre and post-2013 entrants. We are entering into negotiations on the adjudications in the public service stability programme. In addition, a joint submission was made to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for consideration in respect of the Public Service Pay Commission. I hope to see the commission's report in the first or second quarter of 2019 but I want to allow it the time and space to do its work. It has reported on the health sector and is already meeting members of the Defence Forces regarding the submission we have made.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Minister of State is fully aware that under the pay deal, Defence Forces pay will eventually return to 2008 levels in 2020. Yahoo. He should look at the increases in the cost of living and rents. What a great thing that members of the Defence Forces will have their pay brought back to 2008 levels. They are among the lowest paid public sector workers in the country. It is disingenuous of the Minister of State to refer to those earning €70,000 because they are not the majority in the Defence Forces.

When will the Minister of State give recognition to the members of PDFORRA, as recommended by the European Committee on Social Rights? That is my core question. It is interesting that the Government is able to recommend introducing certain things the European Union says we must have in this country, for example, water charges, but refuses to recognise workers' rights. These workers need recognition. They need to be members of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, and they do not need to be taking the Minister of State to court because they were threatened with legal action for taking part in a march outside the Dáil over low pay and conditions a couple of months ago. That was a shocking thing to do to those people and it will embarrass the Government when the case for freedom of assembly becomes public knowledge when it comes to court. The Defence Forces should be given the right to free assembly and decent pay and conditions. Failing that, the Government will face the consequences.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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There is a civil military group working on the working time directive. On the matter of ICTU, I ask the Deputy to read the report into the review of the CA scheme, which is published on the Department's website. It was carried out by Mr. Gerard Barry. He recommends that my Department officials talk to ICTU on the issue the Deputy raised. I welcomed the report. I am disappointed the Deputy has not read it and I encourage her to do so.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am disappointed the Minister of State has not recognised the Defence Forces representative associations.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am asking the Deputy to read the report. I have accepted its findings and recommendations and instructed my Department and the military side to implement the recommendations arising from the review of the CA scheme. One of the issues is membership of ICTU. I am allowing my Department officials to talk to ICTU and I welcome that. We will see what the outcome is.