Dáil debates

Wednesday, 3 October 2018

Ceisteanna (Atógáíl) - Questions (Resumed)

Northern Ireland

1:05 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach if he has met or spoken to Ms Arlene Foster and Ms Michelle O'Neill recently on restoring the Northern Executive. [37318/18]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent engagements with political leaders in Northern Ireland. [38645/18]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent engagements with political leaders in Northern Ireland. [39830/18]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 3 together.

The devolved, power-sharing institutions are at the heart of the Good Friday Agreement and are the best means for achieving accountable, representative decision-making for all the people of Northern Ireland, and I am deeply concerned at the ongoing impasse in regard to their restoration. In my recent conversations with Prime Minister Theresa May, I have emphasised the Government’s full commitment to the Good Friday Agreement and our continuing determination to secure the effective operation of all of its institutions. In this context, the Government is in ongoing contact with the political parties in Northern Ireland at political, official and adviser level. I last met Michelle O'Neill during my visit to Belfast in June and I last met Arlene Foster when I visited Enniskillen last November. I have had informal contacts with DUP representatives since then, including through a meeting in Washington in March. In addition, I have visited Northern Ireland on seven separate occasions since becoming Taoiseach, often meeting DUP representatives. Meetings are being arranged over the coming days with some of the Northern parties, and I have made it clear that I will be available to meet the other parties, should they wish to do so.

As well as keeping in close contact with the Northern Ireland political parties, the Tánaiste is also actively engaged with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on how both Governments can most effectively support that urgent work in the period immediately ahead. We want to put a political process in place that can secure an agreement on the operation of the devolved institutions. We will continue to engage with the Government and the political parties in Northern Ireland to seek urgent progress on that in the period immediately ahead.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The question was whether the Taoiseach had met or spoken to Ms Arlene Foster and Ms Michelle O'Neill recently. Will the Taoiseach give me the specific dates when he spoke to Arlene Foster and Michelle O'Neill last?

We can all agree that, today, we are at a low point in terms of the Brexit process so far and the operation of the Good Friday Agreement. Let us be clear that what we have seen from the Tories and the DUP is belligerence and, frankly, ignorance. They do not get to change anything unilaterally in the fixed peace settlement on this island. Instead of spending our time escalating this dispute, the question is what we are going to do to overcome it. As someone who was intimately involved in very difficult negotiations on Northern Ireland, negotiations which led to real progress, I would have to say that the level of public sniping back and forth which we have heard to date is unprecedented. The lack of even basic working relations between key players is clearly a serious part of the problem. It may be that the Taoiseach thinks circumstances make this inevitable, but no one can seriously look at what has been happening and say that the tradition of the Department of the Taoiseach in building close relations and leading from the front on Northern Ireland is still operating. For major stretches of this year - seven weeks in the first part of the year and ten weeks up to the recent summit - there has been no personal contact with Downing Street. It is probably over 30 years since there was such a lack of ongoing contact.

This is not about laying the blame. It is about looking for what is causing the breakdown and trying to change the destructive dynamic which has taken hold. It is also undeniable that the continued absence of the assembly and Executive is directly empowering the DUP.

The anti-Brexit, common-sense majority in the assembly and Northern Ireland generally have, in effect, been silenced and denied any input into the discussions which are increasingly becoming sectarian. It is incomprehensible that the anti-Brexit majority have been denied a parliamentary platform for so long. The only political platform for any politician in Northern Ireland is at Westminster which is currently dominated by a belligerent and unco-operative pro-Brexit presence. There is no forum for anti-Brexit parliamentarians and the assembly and the Executive are a huge loss for those of us who want a soft-Brexit which would do the least damage. Will there be any initiative to unblock the operation of the institutions? It is blindingly obvious that current efforts are too timid and have failed miserably. It is beyond time to insist on a new initiative.

1:15 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Deputy Micheál Martin is right that it is a monumental disaster that the voices of the majority in Northern Ireland on Brexit have no forum in which to contribute. The only forum for Northern Ireland representatives only includes those who are virulently pro-Brexit. Most of us were dismayed by the statement yesterday of the leader of the DUP. It is becoming increasingly clear that the DUP has taken a very strong position on Brexit and, in effect, exercised a veto on the possibility of the United Kingdom delivering on our understanding of the backstop into which it entered with the European Union last December. I would be interested in hearing the Taoiseach's view on the matter. Is it his understanding he can get around the obstacle of the DUP which appears to regard any divergence on trade between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom as a matter of constitutional importance, whereas any divergence on fundamental social rights such as marriage equality and abortion would be regarded as affecting a defining characteristic of Northern Ireland. Go figure - it does not make sense to me. We could all list a myriad of instances in which Northern Ireland is demonstratively different, including in the areas of animal health and welfare, from the rest of the United Kingdom. In fact, the existence of the Good Friday Agreement underscores this point. My question is on a matter that is the source of profound worry. On the Irish backstop agreed to between the EU 27 and the United Kingdom last year, is the Taoiseach engaged directly with the DUP to understand and, I hope, assuage any concern it has? Does it appear to the Taoiseach that, through its veto on the proposal, the DUP will prevent the British Prime Minister, Mrs. Theresa May, from delivering on her promise made last year?

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The actions of the leader of the DUP yesterday have caused concern for many of us across the island, not least in relation to Brexit and how the negotiations will play out in the coming weeks. Brexit is of concern to many in my constituency of Louth. The onus is on political leaders to defend our political and economic interests. That is what has guided Sinn Féin in its approach to Brexit. We have not sought to play politics on it, as I am sure even the Taoiseach will acknowledge. We have supported the Government and the European Union negotiating team which we have met on numerous occasions in the course of its endeavours to get the best deal possible, which we certainly want to be the final outcome. That should be everyone's position, including every party across the island. However, there is now an onus on the British Government to step up to the mark, while the onus on the Irish Government is to defend and promote an all-Ireland view. Last December the Taoiseach said he had received a cast-iron guarantee in protecting Ireland, nothing less than which is acceptable. He must stand firm when defending the interests of the entire island and protect the rights of all citizens. He must remain resolute when he comes up against British intransigence. The European Union must remain true to its word that without an agreed, legally enforceable backstop, there will be no withdrawal agreement. Has it reaffirmed that commitment to the Taoiseach recently? Does he accept that we need a legal, as opposed to a, political guarantee?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am afraid I cannot give Deputy Micheál Martin the specific dates of my contacts with Ms Arlene Foster. We have each other's mobile phone number and have had for quite some time. As such, we are able to keep in touch regularly.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking about meetings.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I gave that information in my reply. We met a couple of months ago.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach cannot recall when they last spoke.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I can. As I said, we have each other's mobile number. I do not have the exact date, but it was within the last couple of weeks. We were counterparts before, have each other's mobile number and can be in touch. We have been trying to organise a formal meeting for quite some time. We had a date which fell through and are trying to organise a new one. The truth is that the environment is poor politically, not because of anything interpersonal but because of Brexit and the RHI inquiry. The efforts made at the start of the year to get the assembly and the Executive back up and running were unsuccessful. The Tánaiste and I take the view that our best chance to successfully get the institutions up and running again in the North will be when there is greater clarity on Brexit and when the RHI inquiry will either be completed or further on in its work. The focus for the next couple of weeks is very much on Brexit, the withdrawal agreement, the Irish protocol and the framework for the future relationship between the European Union and the United Kingdom. When that is agreed to, we will be in a better space to make another effort to re-establish talks among the different parties in Northern Ireland.

I met Ms Michelle O'Neill a couple of months ago, but, of course, she is the deputy leader of her party and her main contact is the Tánaiste. My main contact in Sinn Féin is the leader of the party, Deputy Mary Lou McDonald, with whom I interact and to whom I speak regularly. We have a date in the diary for a meeting to discuss Northern Ireland with both the leader and the deputy leader of Sinn Féin and the Head of Government and deputy head of Government. It is due to take place next week or the week after - I do not have the exact date in my head. Contacts between Downing Street and the Department of Taoiseach are very close. I note that the Leader of the Opposition is trying to make out that they are not or that there is some difficulty, but there is not. The difficulty is not a lack of contact or a question of personality, it has to do entirely with the political issues with which we are grappling, in particular Brexit. The ongoing contact happens at official level, sherpa to sherpa, at Secretary General and Permanent Secretary level, at adviser to adviser level and, of course, at Prime Minister to the Taoiseach level. There is regular contact and efforts are regularly made to understand the thinking and position of the Irish Government and the UK Government. That contact happens a couple of times a week.

It is important to emphasise that while we are in contact all of the time to understand each other's perspective and position, we are not engaging in bilateral negotiations with the United Kingdom. While the United Kingdom may wish that to happen, it is not how the negotiations are being conducted. They are being conducted with representatives of the European Union, including Ireland, on one side of the table and of the United Kingdom on the other. We are determined not to allow the issues related to us to be subject to bilateralism in any way. Anyone who understands the issues will know why that is the right course of action to take.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The question was about the Northern Ireland Executive.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The same applies to the DUP, Sinn Féin or any other political party. We are not negotiating on Brexit with a UK or Northern Ireland political party; rather, we are negotiating with the United Kingdom in Salzburg.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The question was about the Northern Ireland Executive. There were two questions.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I am confused. The constant interruptions make it difficult to remember what the question was.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not interrupting. The three questions asked were about Northern Ireland, not Brexit.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The last contact on Northern Ireland between the British Prime Minister, Mrs. Theresa May, and I was in Salzburg a week or so ago. All of our officials and senior advisers were there. As to what is being said in general about Brexit in the media, we need to understand there is a British Conservative-----

1:25 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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On a point of order, I am not trying to interrupt, but there are other questions about Brexit. The first three questions in this group are specifically about Northern Ireland and the restoration of the Executive. I am not getting personal but asking a basic question. The bottom line is that we have had an unprecedented absence of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Executive. In previous eras, major initiatives would have taken place, Prime Minister to Prime Minister, to try to unblock this. That is the point. That is all I am saying. I am not talking about Brexit.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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On a contrary point of order, the written questions are indeed about Northern Ireland. They do not refer to Brexit, but I was asked about Brexit during the oral part of these questions. It regularly occurs that the questions in writing are about one topic but Deputies raise other issues verbally and I am then accused of not answering the question, even though it was not asked in writing. It is a no-win situation. I am asked to answer questions that are not among the questions and then constantly-----

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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My question is about engagement, not Brexit or Northern Ireland.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The first three questions in the group are about Northern Ireland. The Taoiseach should not muddy the waters.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputies should let the Taoiseach respond.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Perhaps the different Opposition leaders should have a debate among themselves as to what question they are asking me.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The questions are written down.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It would certainly make it easier because what is written down are questions-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Forget it. This is pathetic.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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-----about Northern Ireland, not Brexit. I am nonetheless happy to answer them as best I can in the time I am given.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, the Taoiseach should answer the questions about Northern Ireland.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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However, when I am constantly interrupted and barracked, it makes it extremely difficult.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach has only 15 seconds left.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He is hardly being barracked.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am afraid we will not get answers to any of the questions.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I know but I am-----

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach is doing his best.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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It is not my fault. I am doing my best.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Yes, I appreciate that.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle.

I was asked about respect for the Good Friday Agreement. As I said, the Good Friday Agreement has two major philosophies, two component parts, behind it. The first is respect for the principle of consent, and we respect that Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom until such time as the majority of people in Northern Ireland consent to a change. The agreement also recognises, however, that Northern Ireland is a special place owing to its unique history and geography. At the heart of the Good Friday Agreement is a recognition that there are special arrangements for Northern Ireland. The fact that there are such special arrangements in any number of areas does not make Northern Ireland any less part of the United Kingdom.