Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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43. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence his views on the fact that the LÉ Orla and LÉ Niamh could not set sail to conduct operations during the week 24 to 26 September 2018 as a consequence of inadequate trained manning levels. [40259/18]

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I am seeking the Minister of State's views on the LÉ Orlaand LÉ Niamhnot being able to set sail to conduct operations during the week of 24 to 26 September as a consequence of inadequate trained manning levels.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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First, the delay in the return home of Defence Forces personnel has nothing to do with the HR section of the Department of Defence.

The Naval Service is the State's principal seagoing agency tasked with a variety of defence and other roles. The current strength of the Naval Service is just over 1,000 personnel, or approximately 92% of its establishment of 1,094 personnel. There is ongoing recruitment to the Naval Service, with the most recent intake of general service recruits and cadets in September. There will be further recruitment in early 2019. The level of training and experience gained by members of the Defence Forces makes them attractive to private sector employers. The Defence Forces are not unique in that regard. This is experienced in other parts of the public service and by other military organisations internationally. At the request of the Government, the Public Service Pay Commission is considering specific recruitment and retention issues in the Defence Forces.

On the two ships referred to in the question, I am sure the Deputy will appreciate that for operational and security reasons it would not be appropriate to disclose details of the operational deployment of any vessel in the Naval Service. However, the Naval Service is meeting its security and defence tasks. It is also important to note that the Naval Service is intelligence-led and must, therefore, prioritise its work carefully. Whether it is the ongoing operation in the Mediterranean or the recent joint surveillance operation off the south coast which resulted in the detention of a 40-foot vessel carrying a significant quantity of cocaine on board, the Naval Service does great work.

Last Wednesday, when this issue came to my attention, I spoke to the Chief of Staff who later in the week visited the naval base to discuss ongoing challenges. The Chief of Staff provided me with a preliminary update by telephone on Friday evening and yesterday afternoon I received a further written briefing on the issue. I am expecting a more detailed explanation from military management in the coming days.

It is also important to note that ships do not sail from time to time for various reasons, including weather, mechanical reasons and personnel issues. The Naval Service maritime security and defence patrol schedule takes into account the requirement to maintain a patrol presence at sea and to schedule resupply, refitting and maintenance in harbour. Despite the challenges it is facing, I am assured by military management that the Naval Service continues to carry out its assigned security and defence tasks.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State's response was similar to the comments he made on "Prime Time" last night. He is in complete and continuous denial. Who is he trying to fool here? The ships were docked because of the recruitment and retention crisis of recent months and years, yet the Minister of State cites operational and security reasons. How were operational and security tasks performed if the ships were docked? This week, for example, two ships were left in dock because of the retention crisis.

The Minister of State is in complete denial and dismisses the issue by referring to the Public Service Pay Commission. An emergency meeting of senior military management had to address this matter. I now understand that one of the ships set sail but had to draft in personnel who were undergoing training. This is a case of robbing Peter to pay Paul to save the Minister of State's bacon in the Department of Defence. He needs to take control of this issue and stop referring to other reasons. On the "Prime Time" programme last night, he engaged in further denial when he referred to weather and technical difficulties and again tried to assure the public that security and defence tasks were not being compromised.

Under the Minister of State's management, the Department of Defence and the military are in complete crisis. There has been no assurance during his tenure. He is completely failing the people. These issues have caused a crisis in morale. Defence Forces personnel cannot sail because of the retention crisis, yet the Minister of State takes no action.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I will give the Deputy some advice because we could have avoided the situation we are in. I watched an interesting programme last night about the banking bailout. Deputy Chambers' party was involved in that. I would-----

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State is distracting from the point again. Will he address the issue of the military crisis we are having?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I advise the Deputy to watch that programme as he might learn a lot.

I received correspondence yesterday from the Chief of Staff who assured me that, despite the many challenges, the Naval Service is still able to carry out its assigned security and defence tasks and meet its commitments under the various service level agreements. I admitted last night that we have human resources challenges in the Naval Service. I did not shirk my responsibilities.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State referred to weather and technical difficulties.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I advise the Deputy to watch the programme again. Maybe he did not see it.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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I did.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I stated last night that we have human resources issues and challenges in the Defence Forces. We are in a process with the Public Service Pay Commission and various other processes. I assure the general public that the Naval Service is capable. The Chief of Staff has assured me that it is well able to carry out its security and defence tasks.

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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Again, the Minister of State distracts from the point by referring to events of ten years ago. We are in the present. The Minister of State needs to take control of defence policy for the future. He is failing those who are working and risking their lives daily. I understand that to allow the ship to sail, the crew was augmented by the cancellation of specialist weapons training. Two instructors and six students were affected. I also understand the ship sailed and is docked at Roche's Point because it has such a skeletal crew that it cannot sail into deep waters to carry out its operational and security tasks.

The Minister of State claimed he cannot discuss the issue because it would compromise military intelligence. That is nonsense. It is just a facade and a barrier to allow him to avoid being held properly accountable to the House on defence policy. Again, he is failing in his duty as Minister of State with special responsibility for defence. Will he stop referring to the Public Service Pay Commission and start doing something about this crisis? The Chief of Staff said he would make a direct plea to the Public Service Pay Commission. That gives rise to questions about the effectiveness of the joined-up approach between the Chief of Staff and the Department. I think the Chief of Staff is losing trust in the Department, the Minister of Sate and the management of this crisis. Our ships cannot even set sail. Members of the Defence Forces are receiving social welfare payments because of the complete failure of this Government to do anything about this recruitment and retention crisis.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is asking me to shirk my responsibilities in respect of the Public Service Pay Commission, while applauding the Chief of Staff for engaging with the commission

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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The Chief of Staff does not trust the Minister of State.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should make up his mind on which way he wants to go. It is my political responsibility. I have engaged with the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Public Service Pay Commission, and a comprehensive joint submission has been made by the Department of Defence and the Defence Forces. The Chief of Staff acknowledged that when he said-----

Jack Chambers (Dublin West, Fianna Fail)
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What involvement did he have in it?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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If the Deputy listened, he would know it was a joint submission in which both parties were very much involved. It was submitted to the Public Service Pay Commission in early September. I am giving the commission the space and time to carry out its work on pay within the Defence Forces. Maybe the Deputy will read the commission's report of May 2017, which I have highlighted to him a number of times. Perhaps he has failed to read it. The report highlighted the Defence Forces as a case in point. The Defence Forces are being prioritised in the Public Service Pay Commission.