Dáil debates

Wednesday, 27 June 2018

Ceisteanna - Questions (Resumed)

Structured Dialogue Process

1:25 pm

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach if he has held recent meetings with representatives of churches and faith communities as part of the church-State structured dialogue process. [27579/18]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meetings with faith leaders; and his plans for future engagements. [27720/18]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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6. To ask the Taoiseach if he has met with church leaders and faith communities recently. [27747/18]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 4 to 6, inclusive, together.

On 22 January 2018 I met with representatives of the Church of Ireland, Presbyterian and Methodist churches. I was accompanied by the Minister for Justice and Equality, the Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation, the Minister for Education and Skills, the Minister for Health, the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport and the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

This was the second in a series of meetings that I will be holding with dialogue partners. We discussed important social and economic issues facing Irish society, including Brexit, education issues and the eighth amendment of the Constitution as well as international affairs.

On 31 August last, I held a formal meeting under the structured dialogue process with representatives of the Catholic Church, led by Archbishop Eamon Martin. I was accompanied at this meeting by the then Tánaiste, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, and by the Minister for Education and Skills, the Minister for Health, the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport and the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection. A wide-ranging discussion took place on a range of important national and international issues, including the world meeting of families in August and the possibility of a visit to Ireland by the Pope, education issues, including school admissions, the eighth amendment, Northern Ireland, overseas development assistance and social justice.

Churches and faith communities play an important role in Irish life and I believe it is beneficial that Government should engage with them in a structured way. Some of the issues we discussed at these meetings were challenging. These are issues on which people have deeply-held views and many are matters of conscience. Our discussions were valuable not only because they dealt with important issues but particularly because they were conducted in an atmosphere of respect for the views of others and everyone sought to be constructive.

I also received a courtesy call from Archbishop Diarmuid Martin, as is traditional around the new year period, and I attended a Jewish Seder with the head of the Jewish community in Ireland.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I share the Taoiseach's view that these conversations are important not least because of the fact that now, as we move into the beginning of the endgame of separating church and State, there is a need to reassure people of faith that their freedom to practise and freedom of religious expression is unfettered and supported by the State and Government.

In so doing, it should be reiterated that no theological view should shape or demand expression in the laws of the land. In my view, the referendum on the eighth amendment will be seen in time as a tipping point where mainstream public opinion in Ireland showed that it understood that essential division. In that context, the Taoiseach's conversations are very important.

I am very interested to know what employment affairs were discussed, if any. The Taoiseach listed various ministerial briefs. What would be discussed under that heading? There is increasing concern that within schools of a particular religious ethos, certain members of teaching staff might run into difficulties because of their own identity, including their sexuality or sexual orientation. Is that the type of thing that might be discussed in this forum? I should ask if the Minister, Deputy Madigan, has been involved in any of these structured dialogues. From the exchange between herself and the Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. Diarmuid Martin, it might be a good idea if she was on the next delegation.

1:35 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I also think this is a useful interaction. Faith groups are an important part of our social infrastructure and a greater variety of faith groups have established themselves on the island of Ireland in recent times. The growth of the Muslim community and its increased visibility is one example. For that reason, we must address some matters.

As I have said in the past, the role of churches in controlling education is a very important issue so that all faith communities and none will have access to appropriate education and faith training but all have a common curriculum. We touched upon this earlier. If one reads the history of countries such as Belgium, the Netherlands or France, a separation of new migrants from indigenous communities has caused huge problems. Often, after generations, there are people who do not even speak the main language of the country. Separateness is encouraged. We need to think very carefully and have an inclusive curriculum and understanding of what Irishness involves, with a full respect for the expression of religious beliefs and a capacity for religious training in that. One suggestion I made on this matter is that it might be appropriate for the Citizens' Assembly to look at the provision of education into the future to address different demands in order that we do not have demands in the future for particular types of religious education that might be seen as excluding people from mainstream education. It is something that we should have regard to and I would be interested to hear whether these were the types of issues which were touched upon by the Taoiseach in his dialogue with religious leaders of all faiths. The pre-eminence or dominance of one faith in this State, namely, the Catholic faith, is changing. It is anxious to divest some of its schools to allow for a different tapestry of provision. I am interested to hear the Taoiseach's view on this issue. It should not happen in an ad hocway, but we should have a vision of what future education provision might look like.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Both the marriage equality referendum and that on the eighth amendment show that there has been a sea change in Irish society and that whatever people's religious convictions, or none, that people believe that religious expression and freedom should be separate from the policies and institutions of the State. There is no doubt in my mind that that is the majority opinion by a significant margin in this country now. That message must be taken on board and the churches, and particularly the Catholic Church, need to understand that. That means that we have to move towards the complete separation of church and State in the management of our schools and hospitals. It is simply not acceptable that the religious persuasion of particular schools or school patrons would, for example, influence sex education when it is such an important matter. It involves issues such as consent, contraception and abortion, all things that young people have a right to know and the State has an obligation to teach in an objective manner. It is not acceptable that the religious views of a patron body would impact and prevent pupils being educated on those things. Furthermore, it is not acceptable that as we speak, religious patrons such as the Christian Brothers are flogging off school property to bolster their own finances at the expense of school children and school facilities. Nor is it acceptable that there be any question marks over what kind of medical treatment might be available to people in hospitals because the religious persuasion of hospital patron bodies might impact on the services those hospitals are willing to deliver. After the repeal of the eighth amendment, is it the Taoiseach's understanding that we have to convey this to the religious institutions and bodies in this country?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The pace of divestment of schools has slowed down in recent years, in my view, because the Government has decided to take a conflictual approach, with a great deal of conflictual rhetoric, rather than co-operation which was achieving quite a lot previously. The last initiative to dramatically change the dynamic of school formation was a decision I took myself in the late 1990s to eliminate the local contribution which was necessary when trying to build a new school. That was a big barrier to Educate Together schools, especially, in Dublin and other cities, in affording land prices and so on. Educate Together has always instanced that as a significant milestone in enabling it to build new schools.

It is now seven years since the Government, of which the Taoiseach was a member, announced that 1,500 schools were to change patronage beginning in January 2012. It is also seven years since that same Government convened a commission on school patronage. By any measure, there has been a failure to deliver on the revolutionary rhetoric and very little has been achieved on this front. This is causing frustration in many areas. Many schools are concerned about uncertainty and in the one or two examples where divestment happened, the changeover has not been that effective as some Educate Together schools are now reporting to CEIST or some other body. That jars with what ought to be the case. The Archbishop of Dublin, Dr. Diarmuid Martin, has said again that he believes the majority of schools under his patronage should be divested. Has anything been done to take him up on that?

The wider issue of religion in education has evolved over time. From the late 1990s, we took a view of plurality of education provision. We signed deeds of trust that covered religious and non-religious schools, such as Gaelscoileanna, which all had different patrons. That was the approach that we took. It needs to be evolved further. The raison d'être is education. The religious became involved in education considerably earlier than the State became directly involved, particularly in second level provision. Historically, that evolution has been ongoing and the capacity of the religious to sustain it into the future, in governance, management and so on, is a big issue.

It is more pressing in the area of health. This is something I raised more than a year ago.

It seems the capacity of the religious orders to sustain their governance of major hospitals such as the Mater and St. Vincent's is highly questionable. The idea that this governance will be vested in lay trusteeships and small groups of people whom no one knows and who are not accountable to anyone is not on-----

1:45 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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It is unacceptable.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----given the level of taxpayer and State investment in hospitals and the complexity of healthcare in terms of the management of a large tertiary hospital. These are hospitals in which the State puts all the eggs - heart disease, cancer, and diseases of all the major organs of the body - in one basket. An important discussion needs to be had with the faith leaders on the reality of all of that and of moving into a new scenario.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Could the Taoiseach advise us how much money is still owed by the churches in respect of the redress scheme for institutional abuse and the sums they agreed to pay towards it, small as they are? It is important we know whether these amounts are outstanding and, if so, how much.

Has he raised the issue of the ownership of school properties and lands at his discussions? Almost all were the product of public donations rather than the private contributions of those orders. The public of 100 years ago gave donations to buy the church lands and to build the church institutions. I am concerned that an air of enormous fragility now attaches to those properties and lands, particularly because of what has happened in a number of recent cases in which different orders have moved to sell off playing fields used by schools. That is not good enough in terms of religious bodies having an active and ethical citizenship in our country. They are privileged to meet the Taoiseach but they see themselves as private property owners and consider how they deal with their private property, which was previously donated by the public, as their private business. I have attended those meetings and I would like to think that the Taoiseach would have the courage to raise these fundamental issues about what are public assets, if one looks at it in a broad historical context, the ownership of which, however, may legally rest with a particular order. As has been said, trustees and other lay representatives now control what happens to these valuable educational and community assets.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Regina Doherty, was present because social justice issues were discussed with the religious groups. Members will be familiar with organisations such as Crosscare, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and the Vincentian Partnership for Social Justice, all of which are Catholic organisations but which have a lot of knowledge about how to reduce poverty and how the welfare system can be improved. I engaged with them a lot as Minister for Social Protection. For that reason I thought it was appropriate for them to be there to have input into policies, particularly those around welfare and housing. The Minister, Deputy Doherty, was not there because of anything to do with schools; it was to do with policies on employment, welfare, housing and so on. To the best of my recollection, the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Josepha Madigan, was not at any of the meetings but we will certainly give that consideration for the next one. It might add another dimension to the meeting were she to be there.

Deputy Brendan Howlin made a valid point on schools and ensuring that the schools system we have, which involves different forms of patronage, does not give rise to segregation. We do see elements of that. There is certain element of it in my constituency. There may be a Catholic parish school close to an Educate Together national school or a community national school. The Catholic parish school would tend to have large numbers of children who come from ethnic Irish backgrounds while one might see a much higher proportion of children from Poland or from African backgrounds in the community national school or the Educate Together school. I can see how that could become a problem in the future. That is why the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill 2016 is so important. I am keen to get that through and to get it implemented on the ground. We intend to accelerate the divestment programme. The vast majority of new schools being built also tend to be Educate Together schools, education and training board, ETB, schools or Gaelscoileanna. There are still some new Catholic schools but far fewer.

On divestment, an analysis was conducted of primary school parental preferences in 2012 and 2013. It indicated that there was sufficient parental demand to support immediate changes in school patronage in 28 areas. The main patron, the Catholic bishop or archbishop in each of these 28 areas, was asked to consider divestment options that would free up school accommodation for the provision of education by the first-choice alternative patron. Ten new schools have opened under the patron divestment process. The pace of progress under this process has, however, been far too slow. As a result, the Minister for Education and Skills announced new plans on 30 January which are aimed at providing more multidenominational and non-denominational schools throughout the country in line with the choices of families and schools communities and the programme for Government's commitment in these areas.

I agree with Deputy Boyd Barrett that people want the separation of church and state. They have wanted it for some time. However, I do not necessarily think that separating church and state is the same as absolute secularism. People may want the church and the State to be separated, but that does not necessarily mean that they want religious or religious inspired bodies to be driven out of education or welfare entirely. There is a difference between a separation of the church and the State and extreme secularism. The public is probably somewhere in between on that issue.

For example, people want to have a choice when it comes to education. Many parents want to send their kids to the local parish school. They want their kids to have their first communion in the school with the other kids in the class. They do not have a problem with that. Rather than forcing a change on people that they do not want, we should respect parental choice in education, ask parents what type of school they want and do our best to accommodate that. It is easier to do in urban areas, where people may be near to a number of schools, than in rural areas but that is the approach we should take rather than the forced secularisation of schools against the wishes of parents, which would not be right. The same applies to freedom of religion. If religious bodies are willing to get involved in helping to provide welfare, housing and emergency accommodation - as they do at the homeless hub in the Mater Dei Institute, for example - we should welcome them as partners and not tell them to go away because they are religious. That type of secularism is not the type of secularism people want. They do, however, want a separation of church and state.

The only point I would make on healthcare would be around volunteerism. As other Members have pointed out, it is not appropriate any more for churches, or even lay trusts, to own and control major public hospitals that are funded by the State to the value of hundreds of millions of euros. However, we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater in making our reforms. If one looks at the three maternity hospitals in Dublin, they are all voluntary, as are the Mater and St. Vincent's. These are often the best run hospitals because they have their own boards and they have a tradition, an ethos and a pride in their institutions. They are much less likely to pass a problem on, which would be much more common in HSE-run hospitals. It may be possible to retain that voluntary ethic in a secular way. Notwithstanding its name, St. James's is an example of how that can be done. The new national children's hospital is being established as a voluntary hospital but not a religious one.

1:55 pm

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Could I make a suggestion? The remaining six minutes would not do justice to the next group of questions. Leaders have been here since 12 noon and now have to make statements on the pre-European Council meeting. Perhaps we could move on to that now. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website.