Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael) | Oireachtas source

The Minister of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Regina Doherty, was present because social justice issues were discussed with the religious groups. Members will be familiar with organisations such as Crosscare, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and the Vincentian Partnership for Social Justice, all of which are Catholic organisations but which have a lot of knowledge about how to reduce poverty and how the welfare system can be improved. I engaged with them a lot as Minister for Social Protection. For that reason I thought it was appropriate for them to be there to have input into policies, particularly those around welfare and housing. The Minister, Deputy Doherty, was not there because of anything to do with schools; it was to do with policies on employment, welfare, housing and so on. To the best of my recollection, the Minister for Culture, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Josepha Madigan, was not at any of the meetings but we will certainly give that consideration for the next one. It might add another dimension to the meeting were she to be there.

Deputy Brendan Howlin made a valid point on schools and ensuring that the schools system we have, which involves different forms of patronage, does not give rise to segregation. We do see elements of that. There is certain element of it in my constituency. There may be a Catholic parish school close to an Educate Together national school or a community national school. The Catholic parish school would tend to have large numbers of children who come from ethnic Irish backgrounds while one might see a much higher proportion of children from Poland or from African backgrounds in the community national school or the Educate Together school. I can see how that could become a problem in the future. That is why the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill 2016 is so important. I am keen to get that through and to get it implemented on the ground. We intend to accelerate the divestment programme. The vast majority of new schools being built also tend to be Educate Together schools, education and training board, ETB, schools or Gaelscoileanna. There are still some new Catholic schools but far fewer.

On divestment, an analysis was conducted of primary school parental preferences in 2012 and 2013. It indicated that there was sufficient parental demand to support immediate changes in school patronage in 28 areas. The main patron, the Catholic bishop or archbishop in each of these 28 areas, was asked to consider divestment options that would free up school accommodation for the provision of education by the first-choice alternative patron. Ten new schools have opened under the patron divestment process. The pace of progress under this process has, however, been far too slow. As a result, the Minister for Education and Skills announced new plans on 30 January which are aimed at providing more multidenominational and non-denominational schools throughout the country in line with the choices of families and schools communities and the programme for Government's commitment in these areas.

I agree with Deputy Boyd Barrett that people want the separation of church and state. They have wanted it for some time. However, I do not necessarily think that separating church and state is the same as absolute secularism. People may want the church and the State to be separated, but that does not necessarily mean that they want religious or religious inspired bodies to be driven out of education or welfare entirely. There is a difference between a separation of the church and the State and extreme secularism. The public is probably somewhere in between on that issue.

For example, people want to have a choice when it comes to education. Many parents want to send their kids to the local parish school. They want their kids to have their first communion in the school with the other kids in the class. They do not have a problem with that. Rather than forcing a change on people that they do not want, we should respect parental choice in education, ask parents what type of school they want and do our best to accommodate that. It is easier to do in urban areas, where people may be near to a number of schools, than in rural areas but that is the approach we should take rather than the forced secularisation of schools against the wishes of parents, which would not be right. The same applies to freedom of religion. If religious bodies are willing to get involved in helping to provide welfare, housing and emergency accommodation - as they do at the homeless hub in the Mater Dei Institute, for example - we should welcome them as partners and not tell them to go away because they are religious. That type of secularism is not the type of secularism people want. They do, however, want a separation of church and state.

The only point I would make on healthcare would be around volunteerism. As other Members have pointed out, it is not appropriate any more for churches, or even lay trusts, to own and control major public hospitals that are funded by the State to the value of hundreds of millions of euros. However, we need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater in making our reforms. If one looks at the three maternity hospitals in Dublin, they are all voluntary, as are the Mater and St. Vincent's. These are often the best run hospitals because they have their own boards and they have a tradition, an ethos and a pride in their institutions. They are much less likely to pass a problem on, which would be much more common in HSE-run hospitals. It may be possible to retain that voluntary ethic in a secular way. Notwithstanding its name, St. James's is an example of how that can be done. The new national children's hospital is being established as a voluntary hospital but not a religious one.

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