Dáil debates

Tuesday, 27 February 2018

Motor Insurance: Motion [Private Members]

 

8:35 pm

Photo of Noel GrealishNoel Grealish (Galway West, Independent)
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I move:

"That Dáil Éireann:

recognises that:— it has been 19 months since the Government first established the Cost of Insurance Working Group and there has been no tangible progress in reducing insurance premiums;

— there are several barriers to obtaining motor insurance in Ireland;

— vehicles that are ten years old, but with a valid National Car Test certificate (NCT), are being deemed uninsurable;

— returning emigrants have difficulty obtaining insurance as driving experience from foreign countries such as the United States of America, Canada, Australia etc. is not taken into consideration;

— drivers with five penalty points are deemed uninsurable by a number of insurance companies, even if the points were gained over a three year period;

— insurance premiums are higher because of insurance fraud, which costs the industry over €200 million every year;

— since Insurance Confidential was established in 2003 by Insurance Ireland, over 9,000 new cases of suspected fraud have been received and investigated to date; and

— the total amount paid out in motor claims by Insurance Ireland members increased by 23 per cent from 2011 to 2016, while in the same years the amount paid out by the Personal Injuries Assessment Board (PIAB) across all classes of insurance increased by 50 per cent; andcalls on the Government to:— ensure that the motor insurance sector does not discriminate against individuals with older vehicles that hold a valid NCT, by providing reasonable quotations;

— ensure that the motor insurance sector does not discriminate against returning emigrants by accepting foreign driving experience as valid experience;

— make it mandatory for insurance companies to provide cover to people who have five penalty points or over, as insurance is a legal requirement for all drivers;

— allow people access to the European Union market for insurance that will be regulated by the Central Bank of Ireland;

— work towards eradicating the culture of insurance fraud in Ireland, by introducing stricter penalties for those found to be pursuing fraudulent insurance claims;

— introduce an independent assessment board as a means of dealing with claims assessments, to prevent exaggerated and misleading claims being pursued and settled;

— ensure that when accessing claims/awards, reference is made to best international practice guidelines; and

— deliver real transparency on how premiums are calculated and why quotes are refused, with access to a robust independent insurance appeals process."

I will share time with Deputies Michael Healy-Rae and Harty. I am pleased to have an opportunity to speak on the motion before the House and compliment my colleagues on tabling it. We could spend the day discussing insurance, including developments in motor and business insurance in recent years. Motor insurance costs remain at an unacceptably high level and the motion has been tabled by the Rural Independent Group in an effort to secure Government action on several key areas that could go a long way towards improving the picture.

8 o’clock

The insurance working group's report, published in January last year, recommended 71 actions that the group felt would help to stabilise the motor insurance industry in Ireland and stop the seesawing of prices. The recommendations ranged from looking at measures that would cap some injury awards and reduce legal costs, to steps that would clamp down on fraudulent claims. The deadline set for the implementation of all but 18 of those 71 recommendations has already passed but little more than half of them have seen action being taken. I have a feeling the Government has taken its foot off the accelerator with these recommendations on the basis that motor insurance costs have dropped in the past year. Before that, we saw a crippling 70% hike in private car insurance prices between January 2014 and July 2016, an increase well above what happened throughout the rest of Europe. If we look at graphs indicating the cost of motor insurance in Ireland over the past decade, we see the seesawing I referred to earlier. Can anybody be confident that we will not see another big hike in the year ahead?

Apart from the obvious effects that the still-high cost of motor insurance is having on the budgets of private motorists and businesses, there have been some very disturbing knock-on effects. Of particular concern is the increase in the number of people driving on roads the length and breadth of the country without any insurance cover, a huge number of them doing so due to the fact that they could no longer afford to pay the premium. The Motor Insurers' Bureau of Ireland, MIBI, which was established to compensate victims of road traffic accidents caused by uninsured and unidentified vehicles, has estimated that there are more than 150,000 uninsured vehicles on our roads. It states that accident claims arising out of crashes by drivers in uninsured or untraced vehicles have increased by almost 10% in the past two years.

This motion also highlights how insurance companies are unfairly discriminating against several categories of drivers in terms of the cost and even the availability of insurance cover. We can take people whose cars are ten years old but still in perfect condition, as most of the insurance companies do not want to know about them. Surely the fact that these vehicles must pass a rigorous national car test every year proves their roadworthiness, and companies should not be allowed to refuse them insurance cover. Also unfairly treated are drivers who have been driving a company car or van for years and who may change jobs. As they have been covered by their previous employer's insurance, they will not be given the benefit of a no-claims bonus under their own names. It is a scandal that must be addressed. In many cases these people have clocked up a higher mileage of safe and incident-free driving than other drivers with their own policies.

I raised the problems facing returning emigrants during Leaders' Questions last April and still they are facing the same difficulties with motor insurance. If they have been out of the country for two years, they will have lost their previous no-claims bonus, and most companies still refuse to give proper recognition to driving experience abroad. Both of these groups may have a 100% safe driving record that counts for nothing with insurance companies in Ireland.

Insurance fraud is of course a huge factor in the cost of insurance, estimated to cost the industry and ultimately every man and woman who pays a premium more than €200 million every year. I was rather shocked last week to be told in reply to a parliamentary question that there are no records kept on the number of cases of compensation for personal injury that have been thrown out of court because they were deemed fraudulent. There is no record of such cases referred to the Garda Síochána for investigation or the number of people convicted of insurance fraud. I am glad, however, to be told by the Minister for Justice and Equality that he has now "requested the Courts Service to examine the requirements, including system development and resource issues, needed to enable the compiling of such statistics going forward". Such information is vital if we want to keep track of these scam artists who are doing their best to screw the insurance companies with fraudulent claims. Again, who pays for this only me, you and everyone else who pays an insurance premium.

For many of these criminals, staging accidents is like a professional occupation, usually with the help of family or friends who all get a cut of the proceeds.

8:45 pm

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Noel GrealishNoel Grealish (Galway West, Independent)
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A properly kept register of insurance claims and payouts would surely go a long way towards identifying these repeat offenders, and those who are caught should go to prison because not only are they stealing money but they are putting the public at serious risk by staging accidents on public roads. The insurance companies themselves need to up their game in this regard. The cost of insurance working group was critical of the industry's reluctance to investigate fraudulent claims properly. We really need a zero tolerance approach to such fraud, with an improved system of flagging suspicious claims and stricter penalties facing those behind them. We also need greater transparency from the insurance companies in how they calculate the cost of individual premiums, with a fair and easily accessible independent appeals process for those who have been refused insurance or who feel that they are being overcharged.

With regard to keeping costs down, I would like to see a full review of the operation of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, PIAB, and steps taken to prevent solicitors bypassing this option, telling their clients that they can get them more money if they go through the courts. The PIAB offers fast and efficient processing of claims, which are generally assessed within seven months, compared with possibly years going through the courts. The average sum for claims handled by the PIAB has changed very little from the start of the decade to 2016, the latest date for which official figures are available. The average award in 2010 was just under €21,000 and six years later this had only risen to €22,454, an increase of less than 7%. This indicates the board is certainly not to blame for the rise in insurance premiums in that period, and that the courts process is what needs further examination.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I thank our Whip and his excellent staff for the preparatory work done on this Private Members' motion. I know the Government is extremely interested in this and the Ministers of State would not disagree with the content of our motion. Ultimately, we are seeking fairness for the Irish people. We are seeking fairness for motorists and people who own hotels, pubs and restaurants. These are people who must pay very large insurance premiums that can be crippling. I do not know how many times my insurance premium has increased over the past number of years, and the biggest contentious issue is bogus claims.

There is currently a culture of bogus claims. A number of elements are required. A person is required who is willing to greatly exaggerate injuries that might be sustained. Medical people are required who are willing not to be 100% accurate in the reports they compile. Also required are barristers, solicitors and a group of people that will eventually succeed in ensuring that an insurance company will pay out rather than challenge a claim. I do not blame the insurance companies for the exorbitant rates they charge because the money comes in on one side and they pay out on the other. At the end of the day they are in business and must make a profit. Mother Teresa, God be good to her, is dead and these people cannot take her place. They must make a profit and balance their books. Ultimately, they must shove on the extra cost, to you and everyone in this room and this country.

That is why our premium rates have gone up so much. I am asking our insurance companies to challenge cases. When a person says he or she has whiplash or a soft tissue injury, why in the name of goodness does that have to equate to tens of multiples of thousands of euro. It is ridiculous. In England at present if a person has a severe whiplash injury, that can be proven medically, the money received is a maximum of the equivalent of €25,000. For a proven case of whiplash that is of serious consequence.

At the same time here in Ireland, it is possible to have a whiplash injury that is not proven and there is no basis, only a few consultants' letters backing it up, and get €75,000. For God's sake, there is something wrong. It is not the Ministers' fault and it is not the Government's fault. However, at the same time-----

8:55 pm

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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It is not.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I do not tell lies. I am very factual about everything. I do not blame the insurance companies. I am blaming them for not challenging and not fighting back. We are up against people who are criminals. Any person who pretends to fall in a hotel or a nightclub and feign an injury is a criminal. It is thievery of the worst type. A person who has a small bump in the back of the car will be giving out and moaning that he or she has this pain and that pain and cannot work for three years. A good shoe up the backside is what they want. There is nothing wrong with them.

At the same time I want to be respectful of people who are seriously injured. Every one of us has known people. I refer to children who have been hurt in car accidents and by wandering into some place they should not be. If there is negligence, of course these people should be paid and well paid. That is what we all pay insurance for. We pay so we are covered if someone has a serious injury. If they are hurt we want them to be paid. We want them to be compensated. However, these bogus people have to be cut out.

Only last week our group met with people from the entertainment industry and publicans who put on venues. They are crippled with insurance premiums. These are respectable people carrying on a business. All of a sudden some night some person trips down a stairs and a family member a couple of nights later thinks it is a great idea to fall down the same step. Is that not a great coincidence? I refer to our local authorities. We seem to have people who have homing devices in that they are able to walk around our streets and find a hole on a footpath or something that is wrong. All of a sudden they have the misfortune of falling into it.

Is it not amazing they find this hole and trip and fall and get hurt and go to the same solicitor and the same consultant and get the same result which equals tens of thousands of euro? We have to pay. It is thievery and robbery and we have to expose it for what it is. I refer to any way we collectively, the Opposition side, the Government side, can work together. We have to ask our insurance companies to take on a challenging role against these fraudulent claims. That will result in a downturn in the cost of premiums we are being charged.

Photo of Michael HartyMichael Harty (Clare, Independent)
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Conor Pope's excellent article in The Irish Timeslast week stated the motor industry has let down the Irish consumer at almost every turn in recent years. First, it engaged in a reckless price war that left the balance sheet of too many companies in a ruinous state. Then, to make up for this shortcoming, it started hitting customers with massive price increases wildly out of line with inflation and out of proportion to claims. Few reasonable people would argue with this analysis.

Insurance companies, somewhat like banks, operate behind a veil of secrecy. They tell nobody what they are doing. They pay little attention to what the Government might say and continue on their merry way to extract as much cash as possible out of hard-pressed citizens. High insurance premiums hit disposal income and undermine overall competitiveness. They also put families under severe financial pressure.

We need to have greater transparency in how claims are calculated and how companies collect their data. If they collect sufficient data it should be made available to the general public. We need to know what type of claims are being made, what legal costs and other costs are incurred, what channels of resolution are being used and how these impact on the final settlements.

Without such data being available, proper assessment on appropriateness of premiums cannot be made. No one is denying insurance companies should make a profit. However, they should make a reasonable profit and not an excessive profit. Haulage companies are being put under severe pressure regarding their premiums. Some are being priced out of the market. Others are having to arrange insurance in other EU states where prices are more affordable.

Emigrants returning to Ireland, who have been driving abroad for many years, are treated like novice drivers when they return home. They are charged as if they had no driving experience. We need to treat our returning emigrants, our professionals and our tradesmen coming home to Ireland as the economy improves, properly and fairly. We need to recognise they do have driving experience and they should not be treated as novices.

Deciding not to quote, or to quote an exorbitant quote, for cars above a certain age is unacceptable. If a car has a valid national car test, NCT, which is a legal requirement, then the owner should not be discriminated against. This is occurring repeatedly. These are usually starter cars mainly for young people but they may befor people who are in financial difficulty and cannot afford a new car. Pricing them out of the insurance market is another barrier to those drivers getting on the road. That is entirely unacceptable.

Many personal injury payouts relate to car accidents that pay out excessively high claims with high legal costs. This is a huge burden upon the insurance industry. I refer to 80% of road traffic accident personal injuries being of a soft tissue nature, with whiplash injuries being one of the most common complaints. In my medical practice, I have seen many spurious whiplash injuries coming through and succeeding in the courts. It is quite difficult to understand this. Whiplash payouts in Ireland are three times higher than in the UK. There is no difference between an Irish and an English whiplash, but the payouts are three times greater.

The Irish College of General Practitioners, in a submission to the Personal Injuries Commission, described many whiplash claims as spurious. While many claims are genuine, some are not. The Motor Insurance Bureau of Ireland believes as many as one in eight claims are spurious and suspicious. There is a well known condition in medicine known as compensation neurosis. This is where exaggerated symptoms develop. Patients develop the sick role. They develop sick behaviour only for the symptoms to miraculously disappear once the monetary payment is made.

It is a well known medical condition cured by money which is, of course, to be welcomed. However, it is serious pressure on the insurance companies. Excessive and fraudulent payouts drive up the cost of motor insurance. This motion calls on the Central Bank to allow increased regulated competition in the Irish market from EU insurance companies. This is to ensure comprehensive data are recorded and made public so that real transparency is available in how premiums are calculated and how claims are settled and to ensure best international practice is followed so that Irish people are not discriminated against when premiums are calculated.

9:05 pm

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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I move amendment No. 3:

To delete all words after “Dáil Éireann” and substitute the following:“recognises that:
— the Minister for Finance is responsible for the development of the legal framework governing financial regulation and that neither he, nor the Central Bank of Ireland, can interfere in the provision or pricing of insurance products;

— insurers use risk factors in determining the provision and pricing of motor insurance offered to individual customers, including but not limited to the age, claims history, the driving experience, the number of penalty points that the driver may have and the age and type of vehicle being insured, and that these risk factors are a commercial matter for insurers;

— the Minister for Finance is unable therefore to make it mandatory to provide insurance to those that may pose a higher risk in the view of insurers, but that the declined cases agreement exists for those motorists that have been refused insurance;

— the ability of Irish consumers to purchase insurance from insurers in other European Union, EU, member states depends on those insurers being members of the Motor Insurers’ Bureau of Ireland which compensates victims of accidents caused by uninsured and unidentified vehicles;

— the Government, through the establishment of the cost of insurance working group, CIWG, in July 2016, has given a high priority to examining the factors contributing to the rising cost of motor insurance and addressing those within its control;

— in making any recommendations, account had to be taken of the need to ensure a financially stable insurance sector, that avoids failures of insurers through underpricing, as we have seen in the past, as well as the need to ensure that Ireland remains attractive for new entrants to the market;

— the CIWG and the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach, both concluded that there is no single policy or legislative "silver bullet" to immediately stem or reverse premium price rises, and that reforms of the sector would take time;

— in this context, in its report on the cost of motor insurance, the CIWG made 33 recommendations to tackle those factors that are influencing the increasing cost of motor insurance in the following areas:
— protecting the consumer;

— improving data availability;

— improving the personal injuries claims environment;

— reducing the costs in the claims process;

— reducing insurance fraud and uninsured driving; and

— promoting road safety and reducing collisions; and
— substantial progress has been made by the CIWG in the implementation of the recommendations to date, with more than half of the 71 recommended actions having been implemented to the end of 2017;
welcomes that the Central Statistics Office data for January indicates that private motor insurance premiums have reduced by 17 per cent from their peak in July, 2016;

commits the Government to:
— maintain the momentum of the work to date in order to ensure a more stable motor insurance market generally and to encourage the continuation of the current pattern of decreasing average premiums;

— ensure that each of the relevant departments responsible for the implementation of specific recommendations continue to give them priority, in order to meet the deadlines set out in the report’s associated action plan; and

— ensure that the implementation of recommendations contained in the CIWG’s most recent report on the cost of public and employer liability insurance is also prioritised, as many of these recommendations will have a positive influence on the factors related to the cost of motor insurance;
looks forward to the two further reports to be published by the Personal Injuries Commission this year, which will look at comparative systems and will benchmark Irish compensation awards levels with those in other countries; and

calls on the industry to continue to engage with the CIWG with regard to the implementation of recommendations addressed to it, including the need for them to be more pro-active in tackling fraud."

I welcome the opportunity to address the Dáil on the motion from the Rural Independent Group on motor insurance. The Government and my colleague, the Minister of State, Deputy D'Arcy, who is responsible for the sector, recognise that the issue of the cost and availability of motor insurance is important for large numbers of people in the country. This explains why the cost of the insurance working group was established in the first place, as it was felt there was a need to identify and examine the drivers of the cost of insurance and to recommend short-, medium- and longer-term measures to address the problem.

It is clear from the work of the working group and, indeed, the Oireachtas joint committee report on motor insurance that there is no single policy or legislative “silver bullet” to immediately stem or reverse premium increases. Instead what is required is a series of actions to tackle issues such as protecting the consumer, improving data availability, improving the personal injuries environment and so forth. The Government, while recognising that there is still much more to be done, believes that significant progress is being made. It is also concerned that the motion as presented shows a lack of understanding of the role of the Minister for Finance in the area of pricing and availability of cover.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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On what planet is the Minister of State?

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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Consequently, I am proposing an amendment to the motion which: clarifies the role of the Minister for Finance in the financial services area; provides a general outline of how insurers price their products; highlights the constraints which apply in buying insurance from insurers in other EU member states; outlines the work of the cost of insurance working group to date; welcomes that the Central Statistics Office, CSO, data for January indicate that private motor insurance premiums have reduced by 17% from their peak in July 2016; commits the Government to maintaining the momentum of the work to date to ensure a more stable motor insurance market; calls on the insurance industry to continue to engage with the working group with regard to the recommendations addressed to it, including the need for the industry to be more proactive in tackling fraud.

I will now set out the reasons for the Government’s amendment in more detail. A key theme running through the motion is the view that the Minister for Finance, in his role, should be able to issue a series of directions to insurers about who they should insure and at what price. This view completely misunderstands his role. As the Minister has outlined previously in response to parliamentary questions, as Minister for Finance he is responsible for the development of the legal framework governing financial regulation. This provides the basis for insurers to operate in the Irish market. In doing this they use relevant risk factors in determining the pricing and availability of motor insurance cover to individual customers. These risk factors include, but are not limited to, the age, claims history, driving experience and the number of penalty points that a driver may have and the age and type of vehicle being insured. As these risk factors are a commercial matter for insurers, neither the Minister nor the Central Bank of Ireland can interfere in this process. For these reasons the Minister is not in a position to make it mandatory for insurers to provide insurance to people with, for example, five or more penalty points. In such a situation a person can refer his or her case to the declined cases agreement process. This agreement requires insurers to provide a quotation where the person has been refused insurance by at least three insurers.

The Government, through the establishment of the cost of insurance working group in July 2016, has given a high priority to examining the factors contributing to the rising cost of motor insurance and addressing those within its control. The working group published its report on the cost of motor insurance in January 2017. It makes 33 recommendations covering the following areas: protecting the consumer; improving data availability; improving the personal injuries claims environment; reducing the costs in the claims process; reducing insurance fraud and uninsured driving; promoting road safety and reducing collisions. Many of these areas include specific recommendations and actions on issues raised in the Rural Independent Group’s motion, in particular with regard to returning emigrants, increased transparency to insurance customers and measures to tackle fraud.

It is worth taking stock of what has been achieved in the year since its publication. First, more than half of the 71 recommended actions have been implemented to the end of 2017. Full updates on the implementation of these are published on a quarterly basis. The latest of these was published just last week. Recently, the Government approved the general scheme of a Bill to establish a new national claims information database in the Central Bank. It has been referred to the Office of the Parliamentary Counsel for drafting. Additionally, I wish to acknowledge the important work being undertaken by the Personal Injuries Commission, PIC, chaired by former President of the High Court, Mr. Justice Nicholas Kearns. In December, it delivered its first report. Its findings suggest that adopting a standardised and internationally recognised approach to diagnosis, treatment and reporting on soft tissue injuries by practitioners who are appropriately competent and trained will improve the personal injuries environment in Ireland. The Government looks forward to the two further reports to be published by the commission this year which will cover benchmarking of international awards with those in Ireland and will also look at alternative compensation and resolution models.

While it will take time to implement fully the recommendations of the report, we have witnessed some tangible progress in the cost of motor insurance. First, the rates of increases seen prior to its publication have ceased and there appears to be greater stability in the market in the past number of months. In this regard, the most recent CSO data for January indicate that private motor insurance premiums have reduced by 17% from their peak in July 2016. While the CSO statistics indicate a greater degree of stability on an overall basis, I appreciate that these figures represent a broad average and there are still many people who may still be seeing increases. The Government accepts that and that there is still work to be done. In this regard, the Government remains

committed to the delivery of reform to the insurance sector and will maintain the momentum of the work to date to ensure a more stable motor insurance market generally and to encourage the continuation of the current pattern of decreasing average premiums. The Minister will also ensure that his colleagues in Government responsible for the implementation of specific recommendations addressed to their Departments continue to give them priority in order to meet the deadlines set out in the report’s associated action plan. In addition, Deputies will be aware that the cost of insurance working group recently published its report on the cost of public and employer liability insurance. This report makes a number of further recommendations which, once implemented, will complement the recommendations made in the motor insurance report. It is the Government’s intention that this work is also prioritised.

Finally, it is worth noting that the Government can do only so much with regard to some of the issues raised by the group. It is vital that the industry continues to engage with the cost of insurance working group with regard to the implementation of recommendations addressed to it, which relate to emigrants, increased transparency on premium increases as well as greater engagement with policyholders where a claim has been made against them. In addition, the Government hopes that the level of co-operation relating to the provision of data to the Department of Finance as well as the Personal Injuries Commission can continue. Indeed, the Minister for Finance is encouraged by the sector’s positive engagement to develop the national claims information database.

In conclusion, for the reasons outlined the Government does not accept the assertions made in the motion and must oppose it, as it gives no recognition to the significant level of work done to date by the cost of insurance working group and the progress made in addressing the cost of motor insurance.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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That is more spin.

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick County, Fine Gael)
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The cost of insurance working group will continue to work to implement the recommendations with the priority that this issue deserves. I commend the Government's amendment to the House.

Photo of Michael McGrathMichael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have tabled amendment No. 2 in the name of the Fianna Fáil Party. I welcome this debate and I thank the Rural Independent Group for tabling the motion and again generating a debate on motor insurance. When this Dáil was elected one of the first Private Members' motions put forward by our party, in June 2016, was on motor insurance. At the time, premiums were escalating at a rapid rate. We called for a special task force to be established and, to be fair, the Government responded and in the following month established the cost of insurance working group. It reported in January of last year with 33 recommendations and 71 actions. It is a good report, as I have said previously, and the work of the Minister of State, his predecessor and the officials in that regard should be acknowledged.

We must, however, go further and do more. There has been slippage in respect of many of the recommendations. We are now getting to the important recommendations, the ones that really matter and are likely to make a tangible difference to premiums and to the likelihood of people getting a quote in the first place. Some 15 of the actions have been delayed or are at risk of being delayed, according to the latest quarterly report.

We need to ensure a greater level of consistency in the area of awards. Insurance companies are settling claims which should never have been settled. Claims, which are bogus or exaggerated or may even be fraudulent, are settled because insurance companies do not want to take the risk of taking those cases to court due to the lack of certainty as to what the outcome will be. They remove that risk and uncertainty by settling claims. All that serves to do is to perpetuate the problem even further because it gives encouragement to others to take a chance.

It is remarkable we do not have statistics on the number of cases taken against people who have lodged false, exaggerated or fraudulent claims. We need to get that data. People in such cases need to be held to account and need to be punished where they are found guilty of doing so. That is a key issue which must be dealt with. We need to ensure, through the work of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, that awards are more consistent and appropriate.

We need more information and transparency from the industry itself. People are sometimes surprised to find out a claim has been settled for an accident in which they believed they played no role whatsoever. Insurance companies need to contest such claims vigorously. We need to encourage consumers not just to accept their renewal quotes. The reason the aggregate data is showing a 17% reduction, following a 70% increase in recent years, is because some consumers have actually contested and challenged their renewal premia. Insurance companies will still chance their arms to get a 15%, 20% or 30% increase. That is not acceptable. Consumers have a role to play in dealing with that issue.

It is not good enough that there is no oversight of the way two thirds of claims are settled outside of court and outside of the ambit of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board. That is why a national information claims database is vital to ensure we get a proper handle on the data. The industry has a key role to play in this. It is not good enough to apportion blame on other parties. Everyone must be held to account for their role in this.

I welcome the Minister of State’s announcement in respect of Setanta Insurance and ensuring all outstanding claims will be dealt with fully. This needs to be given effect as quickly as possible because some of those affected have been waiting up to six years in respect of outstanding claims.

9:15 pm

Photo of Frank O'RourkeFrank O'Rourke (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion this evening and I support the amendment put forward by the Fianna Fáil Party. This is an issue of significant importance. My colleague, Deputy Michael McGrath, and our party have been to the fore over the past several years in highlighting the problem with motor insurance, as well as looking for solutions to be put in place and implemented as a matter of urgency. The impact this is having on everyday life is critical. It is raised every week at constituency clinics and affects everybody who must take out a motor insurance policy, whether it is a private motorist, a SME or a haulage business. It is having a significant negative impact.

The measures brought into play by the Government are not having the proper impact quickly enough. When I renewed my motor insurance policy recently, for no reason my premium had increased by 15%. The problem is that when one looks at the Central Statistics Office, CSO, figures, there has been an overall increase of over 31%. This has a serious impact on people of all ages, putting motor insurance out of their reach. That has serious consequences.

Why do we not open the market to other European insurance companies to help curtail and put manners on the existing companies operating in Ireland? I have said before in committee and in the House that one would be forgiven for thinking that the current insurance companies operate as a cartel. When one shops around, there is no difference in premia. How does that come about? It does not make sense.

Drastic action is needed to bring further improvements as a matter of urgency because it is having a negative effect on everybody who needs to avail of motor insurance, not as a luxury but out of necessity.

Photo of Niamh SmythNiamh Smyth (Cavan-Monaghan, Fianna Fail)
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I compliment the Rural Independent Group for bringing forward this motion. It is an issue which affects rural and urban areas, young and old, private motorists and SMEs. According to the CSO, while premia were reduced by 11% in 2017, since the start of 2012, premia have increased by 31%. No one has been more vocal on this particular issue than my colleague, Deputy Michael McGrath, who has brought forward many motions on it.

Since the publication of the report on the cost of motor insurance, the problem has not been alleviated in any shape or form. Young drivers always face large increases in their premia. That is if they are lucky enough to get a quotation in the first place. For over 12 months, Fianna Fáil has called for action on the rising cost of motor insurance. In 2014, motor insurance increased by an annual rate of 11.6%, while in 2015 it rose by almost 30%. In the 12 months since December 2016, private motor insurance increased by 12%. These are staggering figures.

It is no different for people in the SME sector. People in SMEs have many burdens when it comes to overheads. Insurance is one of the largest burdens they will carry. I agree with Deputy Michael McGrath that our insurance companies are not robust enough in investigating certain claims when they are made in the first place. Many business owners will find that a payment has been made without them being notified, questioned or even having the opportunity to put forward their case. That is wrong. As other Deputies said earlier, it is fraud at its worst.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The cost of motor insurance, as well as insurance in general, is one of the largest burdens on individuals and companies. To deal with this issue, as was recommended, we need a comprehensive package of actions. The delay in implementing actions to deal with this problem is certainly exacerbating it. We need much more data on what is being paid out by insurance companies. We need much more transparency as to how one’s premium is calculated. I do not go along with the theory that Ministers go on with about shopping around. If an insurance company can suddenly drop the price because a rival is giving a better price, it means the company was overcharging in the first place. In my view, that is worthy of examination. Many people are not great at haggling and do not have the wherewithal to get involved in it. There needs to be the same price for everybody for the same risk from the one company.

People over 70 years of age are getting loaded because of age, even though there is nothing in their record to say that is justified. We also need to face up to the fact that one cannot have it both ways in insurance. There are certain savings companies could make and much that could be done by more transparency. The other issue we must face up to is that if one pays out enormous sums in claims, then one is going to wind up with high insurance premia. There are other savings but, at the end of the day, what is paid out has to be collected in premia. Accordingly, we have to deal with the issue of the legal costs associated with claims. We also need a much better book of quantum to justify this.

With that, I will pass on to the next speaker. Unfortunately, we never have enough time to debate these issues in detail.

9:25 pm

Photo of Mary ButlerMary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
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I compliment the Rural Independent Group on tabling this motion and shining a spotlight on insurance issues once again. Motorists and businesses are under far too much pressure and the Government is too complacent on this issue. It has been a year since the publication of the report on the cost of motor insurance, and key to this is implementation. According to the CSO, insurance premiums have reduced slightly in recent months. Maybe this has led the Government to believe that the problem has been solved. Unfortunately, that is not the case. If one happens to be a younger driver or a driver of an older car, one will face significant premium increases. That is if one is lucky enough to get a quote in the first place.

A young person who was in my constituency office a few weeks ago had a budget of €5,000 for a car and insurance, but because the insurance quote was €3,000, that person could only consider cars that cost €2,000. If the insurance had been slightly cheaper, the person would have had a better quality car on the road, and we all know what happens when there are poor quality cars on the road.

Taxi drivers are being put out of business, especially those who want wheelchair-accessible taxis. A new insurance policy for such a taxi costs €10,000, which is €200 per week before a driver even makes a car payment, puts petrol or diesel in the tank or draws a wage. This creates a difficulty for people. When a man set up a taxi business in Tramore recently, the cost of insurance was almost enough to make him not start.

Many businesses are under severe pressure. The Oireachtas Committee on Business, Enterprise and Innovation, which I Chair, has spent the past three months examining the cost of doing business. The main trend running through the presentations from various businesses was the cost of insurance. The committee is so concerned about this matter that we have decided to invite the insurance companies to return to debate the issue because we did not have enough time on the day. There are many issues with insurance, particularly for younger drivers, SMEs and taxi drivers.

Photo of Anne RabbitteAnne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Rural Independent Group for tabling this motion and I welcome the opportunity to contribute on it. I am supportive of amendment No. 2 in the name of my colleague, Deputy Michael McGrath.

This is my third time to discuss insurance in the House. The first time, I spoke about business owners. The second time, I spoke about returning emigrants. Tonight, I will focus on Irish cover bands. Recommendation No. 9 reads, "Forum to be established by Insurance Ireland for consumer and business issues". Under the various quarterly reports, I note that the forum has been meeting and is due to meet again in the second quarter of this year. I would like the forum to engage with the music industry because it has encountered a major anomaly, in that it is finding it difficult to get insurance that includes open drive. This difficulty is detrimental for health and safety reasons. A friend of mine, Mr. Mark O'Reilly, from Hot Fuss explained to me in Portumna that, if he had to do a gig in Monaghan, Derry or Cork at the very bottom of the country, his policy did not allow for open drive and that many of his colleagues in the industry were experiencing the same. If it takes four hours to travel down to Cork and he must play a gig, then hop back in and drive back, he will have been on the go for 12 or 14 hours. That is not good for health and safety reasons.

At the next quarterly meeting when the forum is supposed to invite in other industries under recommendation No. 9, will the Minister of State consider inviting Irish cover bands? I would appreciate it.

Photo of Bobby AylwardBobby Aylward (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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I am supportive of any measure that helps reduce the cost burden of motor insurance on our young people, taxi drivers, hauliers and everyone who works in industries affected by this issue. I commend my colleagues within the Rural Independent Group on tabling this motion, allowing us to report what is happening on the ground. Fianna Fáil will propose an amendment to the motion.

It has been highlighted for many years that overall insurance costs are out of control. According to the CSO, while premiums reduced by 11% in 2017, they have increased by 31% since the start of 2012. Dáil Éireann passed a Fianna Fáil motion in mid-2016 that compelled the Government to address the issue. Fianna Fáil also contributed heavily to the finance committee's report on the rising cost of motor insurance. These policies and reports require a Government response to the issue.

The working group on the cost of insurance published a report on motor insurance in January 2017. The key issue is its implementation. Too many recommendations are being stalled. It is frustrating that the insurance industry was slow to provide information on the newly established Personal Injuries Commission. Now, the commission's vital work has been delayed as a result. Up to 70% of claims are still being settled out of court and out of sight. It is clear that insurance companies have no appetite to go through the court system. The Government must tackle the 15 action points contained in the report on the cost of motor insurance that are at risk of being delayed.

I receive many calls from young people who cannot believe the quotes that insurance companies are giving them. In most cases, the cost of the insurance outweighs the cost of the car, which is not feasible. It is difficult for a young person to hold down a part-time job or to complete a full-time college course without being able to drive. This is especially true in rural Ireland. I urge the Minister of State to do something about this immediately.

Photo of Aindrias MoynihanAindrias Moynihan (Cork North West, Fianna Fail)
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I have repeatedly discussed the high cost of motor insurance with the Minister of State, as have many of my colleagues. I am delighted that the Rural Independent Group has tabled this motion. We will amend it, and I am delighted to pursue the Minister of State on this matter. Fianna Fáil has been calling for action in this regard for a long time. There have been dramatic increases in premia since 2014. While CSO figures have suggested a slight decrease in recent months, that cannot be taken to mean "problem solved". The Government must keep the pressure on, as there has really been only a small levelling off when the 50% increase since 2014 is taken into consideration.

I will focus on an issue that has been repeatedly raised with me in my constituency, that being, how there is a different rate for city and county. The city is considered a greater risk, making for a higher rate of insurance. Cork people, particularly around the edge of the city where there is a proposal to extend the boundary, such as in Carrigrohane, Model Farm Road and parts of Ballincollig, are worried that insurance companies will seize on the boundary extension to increase motorists' insurance premia. In no way should that be tolerated. People should not be taken advantage of if the extension were to happen.

A range of recommendations were made in the committee's report, which has been published for a year. The publication in the past 15 days of the quarterly report has indicated that we are slipping behind and not delivering on a number of those recommendations. There is an ongoing investigation by European authorities into potential collusion in the industry and some 70% of claims are still being settled out of court and out of sight. It is almost as if the insurance companies have no appetite to do their business in open court. That cannot be tolerated. The Government needs to show greater urgency and energy in implementing the report's various recommendations in the interests of motorists around the country who have endured phenomenal increases in their insurance premia since 2014. Any slackening off now because there has been a small decrease in insurance premia should not be tolerated. The Government needs to hammer it home and ensure that all of the recommendations are followed through, as there have been too many delays.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I move amendment No. 1.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot move any of the other amendments until the Government's amendment has been addressed, but go on.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am from Cork. We can do what we want. Is that not right?

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy will do whatever he wants anyway.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The Minister of State says there is no problem and that it is all hunky dory.

Photo of Jonathan O'BrienJonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will move it anyway. We welcome the opportunity to debate this issue and we thank the Rural Independent Group for tabling the motion. However, we felt we had no choice but to table our own amendment to it because much of the motion's content fell into the insurance industry's spin.

I will tell the House exactly what I mean by that. The motion states as fact that insurance premiums are higher because of insurance fraud. I read the report commissioned by the Minister. It went through the committee and that is not what it says. It does not say that insurance premiums have increased significantly as a result of fraud, although I am sure it is a factor. Let us be very clear. One of the reasons representatives of the insurance industry gave for putting up prices was the increase in legal costs and compensation awards but when the committee asked them to provide evidence of that, they failed to do so. We were not able to verify that it was the reason.

The motion from the Rural Independent Group states that the amount paid out by the Personal Injuries Assessment Board, PIAB, across all classes of insurance increased by 50%. That is not true. The report to which I refer indicates that there was a 13.5% increase in the High Court and a 20% increase in the Circuit Court, which is not 50%. The average level of compensation being paid out by PIAB has remained static. That is an important point. Let us get to the nub of this. Why have insurance premiums risen so much? All of the evidence presented to the committee, which I have read, indicates that the main reason for the increase was a failed investment policy. The insurance industry relied very heavily on yield bonds to make a profit but as the value of those bonds decreased to 0%, they had to start increasing prices. It is not just me and the committee saying it; the Central Bank has cited it as one of the reasons for the increase in premiums.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae said that insurance companies are not Mother Teresa and that they need to make a profit. Let us talk about the profit the insurance industry has made. From 2001 to 2012, it made €3.1 billion in profit. In 2013 and 2014, it made a loss of €334 million. It made similar losses because the trend continued right up to the middle of last year. The CSO indicates that the industry is now turning around but we have not seen data to support it. If we take all of that into account, between 2001 and the present day, we are still looking at a profit for the insurance industry of €2.8 billion. Those are the facts. Premiums have not risen because there is more fraud or higher payouts because 70% of payouts are private. We do not know what the story is with them. There is no transparency in that regard.

I encourage everyone to read the report. The committee did excellent work. Its report outlines some of the reasons why premiums have risen. It also debunks some of the myths continually spun by the insurance industry, which, unfortunately, have found their way into the Private Members' motion before the House, and which led us to propose our own amendment. We will not be supporting the Rural Independent Group.

9:35 pm

Photo of Carol NolanCarol Nolan (Offaly, Sinn Fein)
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Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCeann Comhairle as ucht an deis chun labhairt ar an topaic seo. I commend the Rural Independent Group. As Deputy O'Brien outlined, we will put forward an amendment to the motion.

I and many other Deputies from all parties spoke strongly on this issue almost two years ago. I find it unbelievable that we are back here again saying the very same thing. The Government is continuing to drag its heels and allow the motor insurance industry to carry out highway robbery. It is nothing short of highway robbery. We need a crackdown on this and actions need to be implemented. The report is not worth the paper it is written on if we do not implement the actions it recommends. I hope that after tonight we will see some action. My constituents in Offaly are becoming very frustrated, and rightly so. It is unacceptable that the motor insurance industry is allowed to carry on in the manner in which it doing. As Deputy O'Brien outlined, the spin which asserts that motorists are to blame for the premium increases is not fact. It seems that when the industry makes unsubstantiated claims in respect of matters such as fraud or large claims, the House sits on its hands and accepts that rhetoric without question. Is this another example of pandering to corporations and big entities? That seems to be the case in this State.

Where the State compels the citizen, by law, to carry an insurance product, it has an obligation to directly provide an affordable solution or regulate third parties that do so. In this case, the State is doing neither. Where the State compels a citizen to put his or her vehicle through a compulsory roadworthiness test such as the national car test, NCT, or the commercial vehicle roadworthiness test, CVRT, and the vehicle attains a standard required, there is an obligation to ensure that insurers do not treat it less favourably than any other vehicle which attains the same standard of roadworthiness. The NCT fiasco is nothing short of discrimination. There are cases of vehicles passing the NCT but elderly people who own older vehicles or younger drivers either not being allowed to insure their cars or receiving excessive quotes. That is totally unacceptable. The insurance companies are allowed to get away with it.

The impact of this outrageous State-approved extortion weighs more heavily on rural people than those in urban centres who have the luxury of public transport. We do not have that luxury in rural Ireland. There has to be an answer to this. For those who cannot finance unacceptably high premiums, it militates against their access and opportunities to work, prohibits their access to community services and significantly diminishes their quality of life. Earlier today, I was contacted by a parent who knew the motion was to be debated in the House. Her son holds a full driving licence and was previously a named driver on his parents' insurance. He was quoted €3,500 for a policy in his own name. As a result, this young man has had to turn down a much sought after apprenticeship. We should be encouraging young people, not prohibiting them. That is exactly what is happening here. Action is required. Despite public anger and repeated debate in the House, the fiasco and the scandal go on. What is happening needs to stop.

Photo of Martin KennyMartin Kenny (Sligo-Leitrim, Sinn Fein)
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I compliment the Rural Independent Group on bringing forward the motion. The issue I will focus on is young drivers, particularly those in rural Ireland. My wife and I were insured by a particular company. Last year, we contacted the company to see if we could get a quote for my son to become an insured driver. It would not give us a quote so when we were renewing our insurance we went to a different company. We did so out of pure thickness more than anything else, because we would not deal with that company any more. I have four children growing up. They are all teenagers. Where will we go in the next five or six years if we cannot get insurance for any of them to drive a car? That is the problem many people have in rural Ireland.

Technology plays a role. Many of these companies can put a device in a car to monitor where it goes, how fast it is driven and if there are any erratic manoeuvres made. Even with that, companies quote €5,000 and €6,000 to a person of 18 or 19 years of age to get insurance on a car with a 1 l or 2 l engine, which one would not get above 60 mph in any event even if one was trying to. Reality has to kick in here. These insurance companies are discriminating against young people for no apparent reason. I appeal to the Minister of State. In a situation where they have the technology to monitor driving, they should be made to quote an insurance premium that is appropriate and makes sense. They should not be paying any more than €1,000 for insurance where the insurer can watch what the driver is doing. They have the eye in the sky and they can text drivers if they go over the speed limit. That is the kind of technology that exists yet they continue to charge outrageous prices.

Young people starting off need to be given a chance. The Government has a role in this but, unfortunately, it is not playing its part. If this is the one issue with which the Minister of State can deal, then I appeal to him to do so. It is something that will have a huge impact on many individuals, particularly young people in rural Ireland and young families starting off. If a young person wants to get a part-time job somewhere and he or she can get a car and get going in life, it is a huge advantage to him or her and gives him or her confidence for life. That confidence is eroded entirely if people cannot get insurance. I appeal to the Minister of State to sort out that.

9:45 pm

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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9 o’clock

I put it onto my Facebook page this morning that I was going to be taking part in a debate on car insurance. The messages came thick and fast and I will read four:

Axa Insurance Ireland, €2,800, Axa Insurance Scotland, €380. Same care, same driver, same cover.

Another read: "Axa is charging over €7,000 for new entrants to the taxi business, no matter what their NCB is." A third read:

Last year my insurance was €680. No accidents or changes this year and it rose to €1,280. Full NCT and only one company would quote renewal as car is 1999 with only 60,000 miles.

And a fourth:

Hi Mick. I am 66. Full no claims for many years. Rural. In 2015 I was paying €410 for fully comprehensive on a Volkswagen Passat. In 2017 it is €725. No change in car; no change in circumstances.

Previous speakers have pointed to some of the weaknesses in the motion but the motion correctly identifies a number of ongoing obstacles faced by various categories of driver in obtaining quotes, never mind affordable quotes. There is a justified rebuke of the Government for its inaction since the cost of insurance working group was established over a year and a half ago and in which my colleague, Deputy Paul Murphy, participated. The motion argues, among other things, for the removal of these discriminatory obstacles and for more transparency in how companies work out their premium quotes. That is all well and good but I have a number of criticisms of the motion. First, it is virtually silent on the economics of car insurance and, specifically, on the profit gouging that the industry has been engaged in over the past 20 years. The Government-led clean-ups of various insurance firms that ran aground during that period, such as PMPA, Quinn and Setanta, all came at a cost to policy holders.

The other criticism I have is that the motion points in the direction of regulating the industry, rather than looking at the radical alternative which we advocate, namely, an affordable, State-administered motor insurance scheme. We have heard the poor mouth of the industry but FBD profits are up more than fourfold, from €11.4 million to €49.7 million in 2017 and there was a dividend payout of 24 cent per share. RSA profits more than doubled to €10.7 million and the dividend payout increased by 23%. Motor insurance companies made €2.866 billion in profit from 1994 to 2014. If that insurance had been run on a non-profit basis, it would have cost policy holders €2.866 billion less or saved them an average of €136.5 million per year for each of those 20 years.

The last time that average surplus per policy was published was 2013. That was a bad year for the insurance industry but it still made an average profit of €186 per policy. What is it making now? The highest profits are made off the backs of the much-maligned younger and poorer drivers, including returned emigrants. Up-to-date figures are unavailable but the biggest surpluses for 2009 policies were made off male drivers aged between 21 and 24 on provisional licences, at €560 off an average annual premium of €1,422.

The biggest surplus for drivers on full licences was €287 for 17 to 20 year old males off an annual average premium of €1,701. Surpluses among this age group tend to be larger for comprehensive policies, which was unusual as, according to the Central Bank, typically surpluses are larger for third party, fire and theft cover. In other words, the industry usually makes bigger profits off the cheaper insurance policies, which are generally bought by people who cannot afford comprehensive insurance. Younger drivers are far more likely to be on third party, fire and theft cover. We call for non-profit, State-run car insurance where premiums are based on a combination of genuine risk and ability to pay. This could still allow for no-claims bonuses for safe drivers and increased premia for drivers with a demonstrably bad record.

We should look at the car industry itself and take measures to make driving safer. For example, we should reduce the severity of accidents by banning cars capable of driving way over the speed limit or accelerating really fast, which are basically marketing gimmicks, and we should mandate higher safety standards for manufacturers. This is the discussion we need to have.

Photo of Michael FitzmauriceMichael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-Galway, Independent)
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This is not the first debate we have had on insurance, which has got out of control in Ireland. Lorrymen are leaving this country and setting up in different countries because of insurance. When people get a NCT it is supposed to be valid but if the car is over ten years old they are screwed by insurance companies, which is intolerable. We have the opportunity to put limiters in cars for young drivers and make roads safer but nobody seems to be bothered.

I cannot understand why, despite the great EU project that everyone talks about, we cannot get insurance in any country we want. The Minister said the EU made things better for its citizens but why can it not do it in this case? The Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport is probably the most anti-rural Minister there has been. It is bad enough that mothers and fathers have to pay for young people to get to college but the Minister is trying to finish them off by making sure they cannot drive at all.

The book of quantum has to be sorted out. The previous speaker showed what the rate was in Scotland for the same driver with the same licence and the same car with the same mileage. There is something seriously wrong when there is such a discrepancy between two countries not far away from each other. I do not know if there is any enthusiasm to solve this but the EU should take the bull by the horns so that people can get the cover they require from outside this country if our insurance companies are not prepared to drop their prices. When insurance companies went bust, people were left high and dry so it is time we stopped talking about it. Actions speak louder than words and we can have all the motions in the world but what counts are the figures people are given when they apply for insurance for their vehicles.

Photo of Maureen O'SullivanMaureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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It is positive that we are having this discussion, which is thanks to the Rural Independent Group. Insurance affects many people in both rural and urban Ireland. I read the eight points the motion recognises and I agreed with each one of them. I will discuss a couple of them. The first states that, in the 19 months since the working group was set up, there has been no reduction in costs.

I can testify to that because of the continuing calls relating to year-on-year increases. We know that insurers work off risk assessment criteria but the calls I am getting are not from young men with numerous endorsements on their licence and penalty points galore. The calls are from people who are wholly reliant on their cars, have impeccable records while driving and, crucially, have no penalty points. They are either being denied insurance or are being given extortionate quotes. I think in particular of elderly people. They rely on their car. That is their way of showing their independence, be it going to the shops, visiting people or socialising. When they are being hit with extortionate rates on insurance, it cripples their independence and has a really severe effect on their psychological well-being.

Regarding the point about there being several barriers to obtaining motor insurance in Ireland, insurance should be about giving peace of mind and value for money but, unfortunately, it is not and there is a lot of disdain for insurers because, ultimately, people only do it because it is a legal requirement and there is a perception that insurers will use any loophole to get out of paying. We see this. If they have an accident, regardless of who is at fault, how many people do not go through the insurance company because they know that it will cost them more in the long run?

Denying insurance to ten-year-old vehicles with valid NCTs is wholly discriminatory. We know there are incentives for people to buy new cars such as the scrappage deal and re-sale value but there are many people who cannot afford new high-spec models who are being further victimised because they have older cars. Someone cannot be insured without an NCT. The NCT means that a car is roadworthy so the age of the car should have no bearing on the insurance company's willingness to offer someone a policy. I do not know about everybody else but I have certainly met people who have ten-year-old cars that are in pristine condition. These are people who have great pride in their cars and can look after them better than those who have new cars.

Regarding the difficulties returning emigrants have in obtaining insurance, I am a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Trade. The committee have been looking at this issue and its members keep hearing about it, particularly Senator Lawless and Deputy Grealish because they are in contact with so many migrants coming back to Ireland who have difficulties getting insurance. Somebody with a no-claims bonus for many years could emigrate to the US, live and drive there for three years and when they come back here, find they are denied that driving history. I know one young person who worked in Boston and San Francisco. When he came back here and tried to get insurance, he discovered it would have been financially better for him if he had continued paying his car insurance in Ireland even though he was not here rather than try to take out new insurance.

I must talk about penalty points because it does not make sense that someone gets the same number of penalty points for driving at 55 km/h in a 50 km/h zone as someone driving at 90 km/h in the same zone. That is illogical. For taxi drivers, the issue is about making a living, the pressures on them and the difficulties they face due to increases in their insurance, particularly for those who want their taxis to be wheelchair-accessible. We know how scarce those taxis are.

Unfortunately, we live in a culture of claims, which has a terribly detrimental effect on those people carrying out voluntary work. They are nearly being insured out of carrying out that work such are the pressures on them. Another issue is the impact of bogus claims on those with genuine claims.

I listened to the Minister of State's words earlier and heard him talk about reform of the sector, recommendations and engaging with the working group but the reality is that the calls regarding complaints and criticisms are continuing. The insurance industry continues to be a law unto itself. While the Government amendment makes the point about the role of the Minister for Finance and how he cannot interfere in the provision or pricing of insurance products, surely there is a role for every Minister in terms of the principle that life must be fair for everybody across the board. It is certainly not fair for people who are looking for insurance.

We are talking about the working group and 19 months. We should be seeing a real impact from that work but we are not. If we were seeing the impact, we would not be getting the calls we are getting, which are increasing. It is a shame because insurance should be a safety value and give people peace of mind but it is not. We see the same scenario with people with regard to home insurance. I know because I live in Dublin Central, which has had floods. Although much work has been done on flood prevention measures, the insurance companies do not take that into account. Even if only part of an area has been flooded, people in the part that was not flooded still cannot get flood insurance. We have a responsibility. People need to be protected and there needs to be fairness for people across the board.

9:55 pm

Photo of Séamus HealySéamus Healy (Tipperary, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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I welcome the opportunity to say a few words in this debate. I acknowledge the work of the Rural Independent Group in bringing forward this motion. It is important to say that the motor insurance industry is hugely profitable but there are very serious issues within and between companies and in the industry's dealings with various categories of drivers. Allegations of anti-competitive and cartel-like practices are being investigated by the European Commission and the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission. There is also the question of the companies' dealings with various categories of drivers, including young drivers, taxi and hackney drivers, drivers of ten-year-old cars, returning emigrants, drivers with five or more penalty points, drivers with previous experience with company cars and van drivers. There is also the question of the lack of transparency regarding how and on what basis premiums are calculated. Between 2011 and 2016, claims did rise by about 23% but premiums rose by a far higher percentage. These huge premiums are putting great pressure on individual drivers and businesses. Increased premiums are largely the result of companies trying to recoup short-term losses on a failed investment policy.

The cost of insurance working group, which was set up about 15 months ago and reported a little more than 12 months ago, has not made a lot of progress but has certainly made some progress. However, a number of actions recommended by the working group's report have not been implemented or have been delayed. It is important that those recommendations be dealt with speedily, particularly in the area of legislation to underpin the protocol with Insurance Ireland on the communication of large increases in premiums, legislation for claims, the establishment of an information database and the establishment of a reliable data set to examine the impact of legal and other fees on personal injury claims. Those issues should be dealt with urgently.

Insurance is a legal requirement. In particular, the ability to get insurance at reasonable rates is vital in areas outside Dublin and the larger cities but this is not the case. As there is inadequate public transport in most of rural Ireland, people need cars and reasonable insurance for the business of daily living such as going to work or school, shopping or going to sporting events or religious occasions. There is no doubt public transport has been and is being withdrawn from rural areas. Therefore, it is not unusual to find workers in rural areas driving an hour or more to work and an hour or more home from work.

Without a car and reasonable insurance it is almost impossible for people to work. In rural areas without the Luas, DART, Dublin Bus and the rail system, a car is vital for every aspect of daily living.

The insurance premiums for cars over ten years of age which have current and valid NCT certificates have a major impact on the cost of keeping a car particularly in rural Ireland. We all know that rural roads are atrocious and to maintain cars on those roads is very costly. Drivers are maintaining their cars to ensure that they can have their NCT certificate and are finding that insurance companies are refusing to cover them or are imposing huge, unreasonable and impractical premiums. These roads are so bad that the chief executive of Tipperary County Council wrote to Oireachtas Members recently informing us that he would require €180 million to bring rural roads in County Tipperary up to a reasonable standard over a reasonable period of time. That indicates the kinds of roads on which cars in rural areas are driving. Serious damage is being done to those cars by those roads, increasing the cost of maintaining those cars and ensuring that they pass the NCT.

The Rural Independent Group rightly raised the issue of returning emigrants. There is also the question of either refusing insurance or having huge premiums for people with five penalty points or more. There is the whole question of lack of transparency in how premiums are calculated. We also need an independent and robust appeals process. The current system is effectively a charade. Drivers end up at best with their old insurance company but with outrageous premiums. We need a nationalised insurance company to provide insurance to drivers on a not-for-profit basis.

10:05 pm

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Michael Collins, who is sharing his time with Deputy Danny Healy-Rae.

Photo of Michael CollinsMichael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I am happy to bring forward this motion along with my colleagues in the Rural Independent Group. I wish to reiterate all the points they have been raised.

I am greatly frustrated that nobody is listening - the Minister of State is not here now either. Since I was elected to Dáil Éireann, the issue of insurance has been brought up repeatedly, but absolutely nothing has been done about it by the Government or anyone in this Dáil. I hope that the Rural Independent Group's motion on insurance will speed up a practical resolution for people.

As late as last Sunday, I met a young female motorist in Bandon, who was starting off her driving career. She told me her insurance will cost her €4,400 and asked me what we, as politicians, were doing to stop this daylight robbery. As she cannot afford the €4,400 in one go, she is paying €1,300 in a lump sum initially and €385 per month thereafter. Everything she is earning is going into her car, which leaves this young woman despondent. This, however, is a story that I know all too well as my son, Michael, started off his driving career last year and I was also hit with a bill for €4,000.

This leads me to ask who is in charge of the country. Is it the motor insurance providers, the Government or the legal eagles? Are insurance premiums raging through the roof because many of our legal professionals are politicians and do not want to tackle this issue as the compensation that is being paid out in courts here is far greater than in any other country?

Even though we are discussing motor insurance tonight, insurance costs for businesses are also having detrimental effects. A few weeks ago Rural Independent Group Members met representatives of the hotel industry whose insurance bills are totally out of control. Some of them told us their premiums increased from €80,000 to €200,000 in one year. Nightclub premiums have increased from €10,000 to €30,000. This will cause the closure of many nightclubs, pubs and hotels all over the country.

There needs to be a major clampdown on bogus claims in this country, with serious fines or jail terms considered for these fraudsters.

As our motion highlights, returning emigrants have difficulty obtaining insurance as driving experience in foreign countries such as the United States of America, Canada and Australia is not taken into consideration. It goes further than this however, as I found out in my constituency clinic in Eileen's Bar in Kilcrohane last Friday night when I met an Irish-American man, Bob Meller.

Bob told me about what I call the real céad míle fáilte he got upon returning to Ireland. Bob was able to drive all over America. He bought a home in a beautiful part of Kilcrohane in west Cork and found out that he had to sit his theory test and go through the whole process of learning to drive again as if he was a 17 year old starting off. Bob is like many other Irish-Americans who have returned home and settled in their community, in his case in Kilcrohane.

How can any Minister consider going out to America on 17 March, pat the President of America on the back, tell him how great Ireland is, share our Irish heritage and meet and greet many Irish, and then have these same Irish-Americans return home to be faced with such obstacles? It is nothing short of a hypocritical disgrace.

Many older people in my constituency of Cork South-West have vehicles that are ten years old or older, but have a valid National Car Test certificate. Despite this they are still unable to obtain insurance cover, leaving them isolated in their homes. To make matters worse, just today - we seem to be picking on old people in this country - the Government encouraged those same older people who are stranded in their homes to turn on their heating 24-7 during the current cold spell. Is the Government that out of touch that it thinks people all over the country can afford to cover the costs of coal, oil and other fuel 24 hours a day? As it is, some of our older people could die from hypothermia with the small allowance that they obtain from the Government. On a separate note, I think we should double the fuel allowance for this week given the weather forecast.

We need to do something to stop these insurance companies running riot. Many of us live in rural areas where public transport is not freely available. Our young people want to drive and we, as a nation, must do all in our power to allow them to do so and not leave them stranded as we have today.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy may have taken advantage of my benign nature.

Photo of Michael CollinsMichael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
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I am fighting for the older people among us.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I am glad to have the opportunity to talk about this serious matter. The first group of young drivers are discriminated against to the extent that it is almost impossible for them to go on the road now with the cost of insurance, even with a full licence. Indeed for those with only a provisional licence there is a Minister here saying they should not be on the road at all and that the people who own the cars should be put in jail. However, he does not have to live in rural Ireland.

It must be recognised that youngsters need their cars to go to college. The other day we were talking about providing teachers. Youngsters need their car to go to college and then to the school where they do work experience and to travel back home again. In some cases it can be over 100 miles per day. How can they do this without a car? We have to be realistic. They cannot get insurance. They are being charged €3,500, €4,000 or maybe €4,500 for insurance, which is wrong.

It is wrong for any Minister to say in this Chamber that insurance premiums have reduced by 17% because they have not. They clearly and most definitely have not. I was talking to people who rang me a while ago.

They have gone up, year by year, over the past three years. The Minister of State should get out of the bubble he is in. He is in a bubble if he thinks premiums have gone down by 17%. Old people's insurance has doubled in the past three years. It has doubled and that is a fact. Taxi operators in Killarney and Tralee tell me that their insurance has gone up to three times its original amount in the past two years. That is a fact. Only two insurance companies quote them for insurance. That is wrong. Those people are being militated against and find it very hard to continue. It is the same story with road hauliers. Insurance goes up, on top of all the regulation, the Road Safety Authority, RSA, and all the other carry-on, such as checkpoints. Even perfectly new vehicles that are only barely on the road are checked out and sent off to garages. On top of that, the cost of insurance is going up.

We have instances of claims where the sum received for whiplash in England is £7,600. Those sums are anything from €19,000 to €77,000 in Ireland. We have the brass necks but they must have gold necks in Ireland to be able to get that amount of compensation.

10:15 pm

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Soft gold.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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The claims are what is wrong. There are solicitors who are looking for people to claim. They are saying they got so much for one person and will get the same for another person. They are advertising. The Personal Injuries Assessment Board, PIAB, only deals with 20% of claims. It should be dealing with all the claims but is not. Why is that? The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, who was present earlier, said this committee or whatever has been set up has had a positive effect. He said it is not a matter for the Minister or the Central Bank to interfere in the process whereby insurers state they will not insure cars of over ten years of age. Who is in government? Who is in power? Who will rectify this matter? If a car has passed its NCT - a ten to 12-year-old car might not have 20,000 km on it and will pass the test - and the insurance company will not insure it, surely there is some power to do something about that?

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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In our land.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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If the Government does not have that power, it should admit it is not able to do anything with insurance companies. This policy of stating it will not do anything is wrong, as someone must. People's cars are passing the NCT and they still are not allowed on the road. Why is that? Then there is the age limit, whereby insurance companies claim drivers do not have enough experience and either increase the cost or may not give those drivers any cover. Surely the Minister of State has something to do about that? If he does not, I do not know how the country is going to be put in place. If the Government and the Minister for Finance do not have the ability or wherewithal to deal with these problems, where are we going?

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank everybody who participated in the debate. I accept everybody's bona fides that we are here to try to do what we can to improve the insurance sector for those who require insurance at every level, whether it be car insurance, employer's insurance or any other version of insurance. We must, however, accept a couple of things. First, there is no silver bullet here. We have had reports and I thank those Deputies who have read the reports. I note some Deputies have said things this evening that are the complete opposite of what is actually in the report.

I will read this speech. In broad terms, the main objective in many respects of both the motor report and the employer and public liability report is to try to ensure consistency of award levels through the regular use of the book of quantum. In essence, this should mean that no matter what way a claim is settled, whether directly by the insurer, through the Personal Injuries Assessment Board or as a result of a court decision, the outcome should be broadly the same. Involving the Judiciary in the compilation and adoption of the book and introducing a greater granularity into it through the work of the Personal Injuries Commission, as recommended in the motor report, will hopefully be a significant step forward. If consistency of awards can be applied in a broad sense, particularly for soft tissue injuries, it should have two very significant effects. The first is that there should be less reason for cases to go to litigation, as the level of awards granted by the courts will be aligned with those provided by the PIAB. This in turn should mean a reduction in legal costs. Second, a stable claims and awards environment should mean that the reserves put aside by insurers to meet future claims would not have to be regularly adjusted to reflect new developments, such as increases in awards. Unfortunately, right now, there is uncertainty about such matters and insurers tend to reserve more prudently, which is ultimately reflected in increased premiums.

I recognise that to get a sense of how the claims environment is evolving, there is undoubtedly a need to have greater transparency about how and where insurers are settling claims. For instance, we have little insight into award levels settled on the steps of the court post PIAB. This information is important if we want to achieve the objective of greater consistency of awards and this is why the implementation of the national claims information database is so important.

I acknowledge the issue of insurance for rural businesses is something about which Members are concerned and the working group's newly published report on employer and public liability is relevant. The focus is on three areas, namely, improving transparency levels, reviewing the level of damages in personal injury cases by requesting that the Law Reform Commission undertake a detailed analysis of the possibility of developing constitutionally sound legislation to delimit or cap the amounts of damages which a court may award in respect of some or all categories of personal injuries and improving the personal injuries litigation framework.

I will try to deal with as many of these matters as I can as quickly as I can. There is the matter of young drivers. The reality is they are also the highest risk drivers on our roads. There are higher premiums for young drivers. There is the opportunity for young drivers to use telematics, as Deputy Martin Kenny mentioned. The use of telematics represents an opportunity and would decrease the premiums by a significant amount. I find it amazing when I make this point to people, particularly young drivers, who then say they would prefer to pay the €3,000. That is an unfortunate position I find alarming. People are prepared to pay an extra amount rather than use telematics. A box is presented, attached to a car and the insurance company then knows every movement, of the car, the speed of the car, the speed of the car in a particular speed zone and more. If the car moves 1 ft backwards, it is recorded, but people will not use the box. They will not take up the opportunities.

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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Make it mandatory.

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is one thing that we cannot get away from in this House with regard to insurance. One cannot have low premiums and high awards and one cannot get away from that. We have a high-awards system. The book of quantum that was discussed-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Deal with the legal eagles.

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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-----is not the amount we would like it to be. The book of quantum is the assessment of what the awards were for the last three years. We ask and encourage the Judiciary to have cognisance of the book of quantum. Its members do not on some occasions and if that happens, it creates uncertainty for insurers and they have to underwrite by larger amounts. If an outlying case is awarded by a judge at a rate that is a multiple of what is in the book of quantum, the insurer has to do that. It must do that to ensure that the company is solvent with regard to insurance.

I will run through the issues as quickly as possible but I have not a snowball's chance of getting through them all. The Government does not tell insurance companies how to set premiums. It is not our job. Members of this House should understand we are not allowed to do that.

Members of this House may be aware that there is a protocol in place with Insurance Ireland in regard to returning emigrants.

I wrote to Insurance Ireland in December regarding a perceived issue with older drivers but have not received a response. Once such response is received, I will bring it to the attention of the House and the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach.

Notification before settlement is a bugbear of many who take out insurance. Discussions are ongoing with Insurance Ireland on a protocol to require insurance companies to notify policyholders of claims made against them before settlement. As regards employers' and personal liability, under data protection regulations to come into effect in May there will be a requirement that CCTV footage only be stored for 28 days. We are attempting to ensure that a claimant must inform the alleged liable party of the claim within a 28-day period in order to allow an opportunity to retrieve and store relevant footage for usage as potential grounds for a court defence.

An insurer from another European countries may offer insurance in Ireland if it is a member of the Motor Insurers Bureau of Ireland, MIBI. The owner of a vehicle registered and based in Ireland may only legally take out insurance with a member of MIBI and may not purchase insurance from a company in another which only holds membership of the national bureau of another member state.

I do not have sufficient time to address all the issues I wish to cover. I have offered to present to the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform, and Taoiseach on motor, employers' and personal insurance. Much has been done and much remains to be done. We will spare no effort in ensuring all aspects of the insurance industry are dealt with. I compliment the staff of the working group on insurance, who have put in a big shift and are the best staff with whom I have worked in my time in Government and politics.

At one stage, insurance premiums were 57% higher than at their low point during the price war. Price wars never turn out well. The Central Statistics Office has indicated that there has now been a reduction of 17% in the cost of premiums and, although not all customers have experienced such a decrease, that is the nature of insurance. That gives an adjusted increase of 40% since the low point. I wish to ensure a further reduction in the cost of premiums. It will not be possible to reduce them below their previous lowest level because at that time they were too low as a result of the price war.

10:25 pm

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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There is no such thing as insurance premiums that are too low.

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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In the short period of time I have remaining, I wish to address the extreme weather event faced by the country. As Minister of State with responsibility for insurance, I ask people to be prudent in their actions should the forecast snow arrive. People pay for insurance to protect their properties, goods, etc. but they should not take undue risks. I know of people in certain professions who will clear roofs of snow that is too deep in order to protect the roofs. People should be prudent and careful in taking such actions. The Minister for Housing Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, mentioned the importance of keeping in touch with the vulnerable in society, and people should take heed of that.

I wish to recognise the efforts of many people in preparing for the forecast poor weather, which it is to be hoped will not be as bad as anticipated. A young woman, Grace Dooley, who is from Wexford like myself, is responsible for organising a group of volunteers who have been collecting money and buying sleeping bags and other parcels and distributing them to the homeless. I can think of nothing more worthwhile to do in the coming days and, if people are minded to help her, she would gladly accept that assistance. We do not have civic awards in the State but, if we did, she would receive such an honour.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call on Deputy Mattie McGrath to conclude.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle. I ask him to allow me some latitude.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I normally do.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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This motion initiated by the Rural Independent Group comes on foot of growing concerns regarding attempts by some elements of the insurance sector to penalise drivers, particularly in regard to the NCT and the refusal of cover. Ar an chéad dul síos, I would like to thank the staff of my office and the Department for putting this motion together and their forbearance in that regard. The NCT and the refusal of cover form only two strands of our motion and many other strands have been addressed by Members this evening. Listening to the contribution of the Minister of State, one would think we were in a different country. The Minister of State has been a Deputy for two years.

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I did not hear the Deputy's last point.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Listening to the contribution of the Minister of State, one would think that we were in tír eile or in Disneyland or somewhere. He stated that insurance premiums were too low. They have never been too low. I have been in business since 1982 and have never known a time when they were too low. I have been on the road since I do not know when. God almighty, it feels like it was 1916 but it was 1976 or 1977.

Through this motion we wish to initiate a comprehensive debate on the entire insurance sector. Deputy Grealish wished to initiate it on business insurance. We could cover the whole sector but we would be here for two weeks.

I am astounded that no member of the Labour Party sat in the Chamber for one minute of this debate. Cad a dhéanfaimid feasta gan Páirtí an Lucht Oibre? The former Minister, Deputy Kelly, is trying to reincarnate himself around the country as the saviour of rural Ireland but he is not interested in this debate nor in many others. The attendance in the Chamber is pitiful. It may be snowing outside but myself and Deputies Michael and Danny Healy-Rae could make hay or turf because the heat in the Chamber is unbearable. It has nearly sent me to sleep. I will barely be able to keep going for another ten minutes. I will be i mo choladh.

Members are regularly in clinics of the completely unjustifiable levels of increase in the cost of premiums. Those increases come in spite of the fact that an insurance company, Aviva, saw its profits surge in this country last year, as noted in March 2017 by Charlie Weston, a fine and honourable journalist with the Irish Independent, and in spite of what was said by the Minister of State, Deputy D'Arcy, and the Minister, Deputy Donohoe. Mr. Weston noted that, "The company said that its operating profits jumped by 20pc in 2016 to €82m. This was up from €68m in the previous year." That is a nice jump. It would be great if any of our businesses were up by over €20 million. He went on to report that at the time that all insurers had pushed up premiums, with the average policy becoming around 60% more expensive in the previous three years. That is 20% per year. One can name and shame it. These are naked facts stated by the head of Aviva. Mr. Weston continued:

Aviva said its general insurance business recorded a 19pc increase in net written premium to €461m. A key measure of profitability in general insurance, the combined operating ratio, was 91.1pc. Any figure below 100pc means a general insurer is making profits. Operating profit in the general insurance division rose by 25pc at the Irish unit of the giant insurer to €50m, with the company helped by benign weather last year.

There was a benign winter that year but it is not so benign this year with the approach of the so-called beast from the east. However, the beasts are here already in the form of insurance companies. They are the real beasts and they are toasting the people and the Government does not want to do anything about it.

It has been 19 months since the report was issued. Much good work was put into it by the staff, whom I am not criticising, nor the Minister of State in that regard. However, when I saw that it contained 75 recommendations, I knew it was a waste of time. Like the snow that is falling tonight, it will be gone in the morning or the day after.

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy McGrath is wrong.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Five decent actions would put some manners on the insurance industry but 75 recommendations is a fob-off and a cop-out.

Those are the reasons for this debate. What is going on with the motor insurance industry and so many areas of insurance is nothing short of legal robbery. Reference was made to the fact that road hauliers have to go abroad to obtain insurance. It is extortionate and it is blackmail.

I accept that issues such as insurance fraud are significant challenges for the industry. I note the findings of the Motor Insurers’ Bureau of Ireland, MIBI, in that regard. MIBI is a not-for-profit company established to compensate victims of road traffic accidents that are caused by the drivers of uninsured or unidentified vehicles. I do not condone anyone driving without insurance. Nobody should be on the road without insurance. The MIBI observed that every year they deal with thousands of claims relating to uninsured vehicles and that, in view of there being an estimated 151,000 vehicles without insurance on Irish roads, that level of activity is not unanticipated. I often raise the issue of Gatso vans and the other red vans we see. They are useless because they do not detect insurance fraud. They are just shooting fish in a barrel while it costs millions to compensate for the actions of uninsured drivers. I have exposed the figures in that regard through parliamentary questions that I have tabled. The Government should give more money to the traffic corps in order to allow it to do its job, check uninsured drivers and get them off the road which they have no business being on.

If the house beside those vans was robbed or on fire they would hardly even get out or pick up a phone to ring up about it. As I said here previously, they might even punish and penalise the Garda car going to the event. They are just sitting there. The scheme is wrong. It is a money-making one for the company and it is taking too much money that should be put into road safety.

One piece of research I came across from a concerned driver said he witnessed a 237% increase in the annual premium for his car insurance. We should just think about that, 237%, not 25%, 50% or even 100%, over a five-year period. The Minister of State referred to the Central Bank. We have had years of the Central Bank trying to regulate unscrupulous money lenders for the absolutely exorbitant and rip-off rates of interests they charge customers, yet here we have another industry that seems to operate with impunity regardless of the massive jumps in premium rates. So while the Government seeks to tell us that recent Central Statistics Office, CSO, figures suggest that the cost of motor insurance is falling for the first time in three years, I would point to the study conducted by AA Car Insurance, which was reported by Dan Buckley of the Irish Examinerlast June. It revealed that almost one third of motorists, 30.48%, had to pay between 15% and 30% more for cover. That is independent journalism, not the kind of spin the Government is buying for its major plan. The Government is getting fellows to interview and telling them to put pictures of more Fine Gael candidates on the articles. The Government is out of control. It is in a spin. Someone needs to insure the Government or rein it in because it will do damage to itself. I would say the Government is uninsurable. Mr. Buckley went on to report that a further 24.82% of those surveyed reported a year-on-year increase of between 30% and 50% in premiums.

10:35 pm

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Some politicians are a liability as well.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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They are. The Government has a fair lot of them over there. Where are they tonight? They are the national liabilities. Almost one in ten saw their premiums rise by more than 50% year-on year. Who is telling the truth here? I suggest that it is the hard-pressed motorist who has to face these challenges day in day out. The same is true of the hard-pressed business man, shopkeeper and sole trader. We are trying to encourage people to come back into the country but what do we do with them then? If they are more than two years abroad the Government had better pay their insurance because when they come back they are treated like criminals. A foreign national can come from any country and they can get insurance here no matter where they were driving or what kind of phony insurance they had. I do not say they should not come. I welcome them to our shores. If someone leaves this country because they had to emigrate with their family they are penalised when they come back. They must do a theory test once again. What an insult. It is a joke. The Government has had 19 months and it has done nothing.

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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We have established a protocol with Insurance Ireland but Deputy McGrath does not want to listen.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Protocol my backside. Rubbing fat butter into a fat sow's you-know-what. That is what the Government is doing. There are cartels in the insurance industry. There are cartels in the banks. We saw what they did last night with the "Black and Tans" out in Balbriggan.

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy McGrath can keep shouting and ignore the work that is being done.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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We have cartels in the agricultural industry. We have cartels in everything.

Photo of Michael D'ArcyMichael D'Arcy (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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That is all he is doing - ignoring the work that is being done.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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They are supporting the Minister of State's party. The biggest cartel of all is down in the law courts where the solicitors and barristers are on the gravy train. There are a fair amount of them over there on the Government side of the House as well. They will not change the legislation to stop this.

We would love to get emigrants to return but they are fleeced. I have a letter to give to the Taoiseach tomorrow from a returned emigrant who came back and set up a business but he went back as quickly as he could because he was knocked everywhere he went apart from the insurance. The national car test, NCT, is the law of the land - the national circulation programme. I have people in my clinic every day saying they have their NCT, which cost them perhaps €1,000 to get the car ready for it. When they brought in the car it might fail on something small and then they would get it passed. That is a legal document yet insurance companies are laughing at it, saying they will not insure people as their car is more than ten years old. That is morally wrong. It is a crime because the NCT certificate is the law of the land. I support the NCT because it does ensure safer driving. We have to live in the country and we do not maintain our roads to keep our cars in a good state to ensure they pass the NCT. The voluntary sector has been decimated. I am a member of it and so is Deputy Michael Collins. In our own way we all decimated by insurance, the lack of engagement with the industry, hikes and everything else.

I condemn out of hand the fraudsters; the people who have their hand in my pocket. We must deal with them in the courts and introduce more aggressive policies. I am a business man. I have had seven claims and I was running in and out of court for three or four years and the next thing the case was settled one day between the barristers over a nice, cosy cup of tea, but my clock was ticking and the meter was ticking and the money was going up the whole time.

If the insurance companies do not want to conform - it seems they do not - and the Government is toothless, useless and fruitless at making them, we will have to change the system. We will have to disband the insurance companies, and threaten them with that. We will have to put a fee of 10 cent per litre on diesel and other fuel, like in other countries. We will pay as we go then. We must put manners on those people because they are laughing at us at the moment. They are not interested in looking after ordinary people.

I know young people who buy cars and they must pay €4,000 and €5,000 for car insurance. Restrictors can be put on their cars to ensure they drive safely. I am also in favour of curfews. Young people in rural areas cannot go to work or do courses. We are crying out for apprentices and we cannot get them because they cannot get to work. They are getting apprenticeships but they have to turn them down because they cannot travel. We do not have buses, the Luas or the DART. We do not have undergrounds or thousands of taxis. We do not want the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, and his policy of ridding Ireland. Oliver Cromwell is reincarnated in the Minister, Deputy Ross, who would not even come in here tonight to listen to this debate. He is trying to banish and lock up all the L-plate drivers and their parents.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask Deputy McGrath to conclude.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I am nearly finished, a Cheann Comhairle. I want to say to the Government that it has failed the people. It has failed the young people and it has failed the ordinary business people of Ireland. It is a shame and a disgrace.

On tomorrow's weather, I wish to add my voice to that of the insurance companies. I hope people will not take dangerous actions to clean snow off their roofs but I would encourage neighbours to visit neighbours, for example, community alert groups and other such groups. Above all, if people have burst pipes and make claims I urge the insurance companies to be lenient and helpful to these people and not have rigorous assessments and numerous visits. It is cumbersome and it is not fair.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Go raibh maith ag an Teachta McGrath.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Mol an óige agus tiochfaidh sí. The Minister of State should tell his senior colleagues they should have come in tonight to at least listen to the voice of rural Ireland speaking. I do not know what is wrong with the rest of the Members but that is the decision of the public.

Amendment put.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Votáil.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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In accordance with Standing Order 70(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time on Thursday, 1 March 2018.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I wish to make a point of order in relation to the vote. I know we may have a meeting of the Business Committee tomorrow and if the Dáil is not sitting on Thursday, cathain a mbeidh an votáil?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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An Déardaoin ina dhiaidh sin, is dócha.

The Dáil adjourned at at 10 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Wednesday, 28 February 2018.