Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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Táim buíoch don deis atá agam inniu labhairt ar an ábhar seo because there is a lot of disquiet and concern among those working in the area. It is significant that 2018 marks the 50th anniversary of the appointment of Tomás Roseingrave as national director of Muintir na Tíre because he identified the services we are discussing as fundamental to the dynamics of community action and development. Today we are speaking about the Citizens Information Board; the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, and the Citizens Information service. Numerous parliamentary questions have been tabled in the House and there was also a debate on a Fianna Fáil Private Members' motion on the issue to which I contributed. There was also a Sinn Féin Private Members' Bill. I acknowledge the expertise and professionalism of those involved in MABS and the Citizens Information service which have long been recognised, both nationally and internationally.

Some information on the restructuring issue is already available. On 30 January, in reply to a parliamentary question tabled by Deputy Thomas P. Broughan, the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection stated, "In November 2014 the Board of the Citizens Information Board decided to restructure the governance arrangements of local CIS and MABS services." That implies that the decision was taken during Ms Sylda Lankford's tenure as chairperson of the Citizens Information Board. In June 2015, however, the chairperson-elect of the board, Ms Ita Mangan, told an Oireachtas committee:

No decisions have been made on reconfiguration or exactly how things will be done. Certain proposals have been made but no decisions have been made.

It appears that Ms Mangan did not share her predecessor's view that the board had taken that decision. She was supported in that regard by the then Secretary General, Ms Niamh O'Donoghue, in formal evidence that she gave to the Committee of Public Accounts on 28 May 2015.

In its annual report for 2016 the Citizens Information Board stated the decision to proceed with "a more streamlined ... model" had been taken in October of that year. A press statement by the board in May 2017 retracted that statement, stating "[t]he decision to reorganise and modernise the service took place in November 2014". Subsequently, the then Minister, Deputy Leo Varadkar, now Taoiseach, in replying to a parliamentary question tabled by Deputy Noel Grealish in 2017, broke new ground by stating the Citizens Information Board had decided on 15 February 2017 to restructure the governance arrangements of both services. A month earlier he had moved an amendment to the Private Members' Bill asking the House to note that the decision taken by the statutory board of the Citizens Information Board had been taken on 15 February 2017.

Here we have a decision which is, in effect, a repudiation by an agency within the public sector of the will of Dáil Éireann, as expressed in the formal division on 30 March 2017, and the repudiation of the position of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Social Protection which had issued its unambiguous report on 1 June 2017. It is being seen as a decision to annihilate the tradition of community action and the principles of community development that have always informed the Citizens Information service and MABS. We do not know who made the decision, when it was made or if it was made at all. What we do know, however, is that the process needs to be reset. We need to go back to the beginning and consultation in order to do it correctly and well in order that we acknowledge that the Citizens Information service has been a safe, independent space that is citizen-directed and impartial.

I will finish by quoting from a recent article by Breda O'Brien in The Irish Times. She commented:

For CIB, the old adage, “If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it”, seems to translate as: “If it ain’t broke, fix it good and proper, and continue to do so in the face of opposition from the Dáil, the joint committee on social protection, and local protest to boot”.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this issue and appreciate how forensic she has been in outlining the background to it.

The Citizens Information Board is a statutory body established by the Oireachtas. In addition to its statutory responsibilities relating to information and advocacy service provision, it has statutory responsibility for the countrywide networks of Citizens Information services and the Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS. The Citizens Information Board has been allocated €57.410 million by the Department to fund its activities and those of its service delivery partners in 2018.

In November 2014 the board of the Citizens Information Board decided to restructure local Citizens Information service and MABS networks.

In October 2016, the board decided the new structure should be regionally based. In February 2017, the board adopted a recommendation that the current structure of 93 individual local companies would be changed to a 16 regional company model, comprising eight citizens information service, CIS, and eight Money Advice and Budgeting Service, MABS, companies. The changes are being made at local company board level only.

The valuable work carried out by employees and volunteers working in CIS and employees of MABS will continue as heretofore to the same excellent standards. The staff and boards across the CIS and MABS networks have been assured by the Citizens Information Board, CIB, that there will be no change to the terms and conditions of staff, no diminution of services for those who use them and no closure of service delivery points. I am aware there has been some opposition to the board's decision by a small number of objectors, as this has been raised both in the Chamber and at meetings held by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Employment Affairs and Social Protection in the wake of the CIB's decision. I am also aware of the cost-benefit analysis of the new regional company model, which was provided by the CIB to the Oireachtas joint committee on 21 September 2017, and which indicates strong support for the decision of the board to proceed to implement the new governance arrangements.

The governance structure of the CIB and MABS network is a matter for the board of the CIB. It is not a matter for the Minister or the House. As a statutory body, the board of the CIB has the sole right to make decisions on its day-to-day operations as it sees fit. The board is clear this change is necessary to ensure the CIB and the delivery of services it funds adequately meet the requirements of the code of practice for the governance of State bodies and the compliance requirements of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, given the significant level of taxpayers' money involved.

It must be remembered that CIB and MABS services are 100% State funded. The aim of the change being implemented by the board of the CIB is to improve the effectiveness of the control environment, financial management and governance of the CIS and MABS networks because they are entirely funded by the Exchequer. The change is also about consolidating managerial and administrative efforts, focusing on front-line service delivery to citizens, improving the consistency and quality of service delivery and, where possible, extending services to and for those who need them.

The CIB executive is currently implementing the decision taken by its board, as it is required to do. An implementation group, with cross-sectoral representation was set up to assist with the transition to the new governance model. The CIB has, and will continue to, provide the necessary information and support to each of the local companies and their chairpersons and boards throughout the transitional period. Information sessions have already been held for chairpersons for the 38 companies transitioning to the regional companies in phase 1. Further sessions will be held for companies transitioning in the remaining phases. It is expected the full transition to the 16 new companies will take up to two years to complete. All companies will be properly supported by the CIB every step of the way.

Maureen O'Sullivan (Dublin Central, Independent)
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I thank the Minister for her reply. I have no doubt her reply will be looked at by those who have concerns and those who are critical of what is happening in this regard. From what I have heard from certain people, I do not believe it is just a small number of objectors. If this was in the best interests of everybody concerned, namely, those working for and those availing of the service, I do not believe we would have seen the consternation and dismay we have seen in the various debates on this matter. It is about evidence. It is not about people wanting to maintain the status quo.

The Minister referred to a cost-benefit analysis. Was there a risk analysis in that? What was the extent of consultations in that process? We all agree on the important service MABS has provided. Its mortgage advisers have almost seen 5,000 cases since 2015. The members of the current voluntary boards and CIS have a wide range of experience, much local knowledge and a genuine interest in the work, as well as wanting to make a difference. CIS has almost 1,000 volunteers working directly with the public. The whole debate has been causing them much stress and anxiety.

The 2010 Pathfinder report stated the board of the CIB places independence as a central principle for all projects coming under its remit. Core to CIS is that whole independence and impartiality. That is where some of the concerns are coming from about what is being proposed. Is that local voluntary effort being valued and respected?

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The CIB is a statutory body which must carry out its role as set down by resolution of this House, including its responsibility for CIS and MABS. From my experience as the Minister involved in this particular service delivery, the members of the board of the CIB comprise some of the most experienced and competent individuals I have encountered. It is those people who have made the decision to restructure the governance arrangements. It was not done lightly and it was done after five years of consultation. I appreciate different people will say different things. However, the notes of meetings show this was first mooted nearly five years ago and the conversation carried on until the board made its decision in February 2017.

As are its right and responsibility, the board considers as one of its core objectives the delivery of valuable services to users by optimising the potential to improve the quality and consistency of those services. There are plenty of reasons, as has been laid down by the CIB during the numerous debates in the Chamber and in the Oireachtas joint committee, as to why it has made these changes. Although, people are expressing concerns as to the changes being made, nobody can point to what they think will happen that will cause a diminution of services or make them less effective, consistent or supportive. In fact, the services will either be equal or better because of the new governance arrangements. The delivery of services on the ground will show no difference except by being enhanced where there is not a delivery of services. There will be no dilution of services or of effective management locally. There will be a new national governance maintained by 16 regional bodies, as opposed to 93 local bodies beforehand.

The board takes its obligations seriously to operate to the highest governance levels. That was probably its root reason for these governance changes. It could not potentially stand over a claim that all operations were working at an equal level or on an equal footing. The board is entirely independent of me, the House and any individual Deputy. It values exceptionally its staff and volunteers. I was in Dublin Castle several months ago, attending a day out for volunteers, where I met the most gracious and energetic people who have been providing services on behalf of CIS and MABS, regionally and locally, for donkey's years. The CIB very much values and appreciates their work.