Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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6. To ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection her plans for the Tús scheme and the community employment schemes in view of the fact that many community groups are finding it difficult to recruit persons (details supplied); and if she will make a statement on the matter. [1878/18]

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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8. To ask the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection if her attention has been drawn to the various conflicts emerging between operators of community employment schemes and those agencies (details supplied) tasked with reskilling; her plans to reform the schemes and address current restrictions preventing fuller participation in community employment schemes for many persons; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [1992/18]

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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This is to ask the Minister her plans for the Tús and the community employment schemes in view of the fact that many community groups are finding it increasingly difficult to recruit persons, particularly in light of some of the employment agencies which work on behalf of the State having to prioritise applicants if they are called for those first even in cases where a Tús scheme or a community employment scheme might be more beneficial and more suitable to an applicant.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 6 and 8 together. Maybe the other Deputy would like to-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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No. The Deputy does not have the opportunity.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, I beg the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's pardon.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Just one Member poses the question. The other Deputy will have an opportunity to ask questions.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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What is the timing for this?

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Lawless will have an opportunity. There is double time and the Deputy will have an opportunity the same as Deputy McConalogue.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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My Department provides a range of activation supports and programmes catering for long-term unemployed jobseekers and those most distant from the labour market. These supports include the JobPath service and programmes such as community employment, CE, and Tús.

Schemes such as CE and Tús provide part-time temporary work in local communities, as a stepping-stone back to employment. However, it is important to note that these placements are not full-time sustainable jobs. Instead, they are designed to break the cycle of unemployment and maintain work readiness, thereby improving a person's opportunities of returning to the labour market or getting a job for the first time.

JobPath aims to place jobseekers into full-time sustainable employment by providing intensive individual support to help them to overcome barriers to employment. People who have completed their year-long engagement with JobPath may apply, if eligible, to participate in a work programme such as CE or Tús.

The Deputies will appreciate that the welcome reduction in the unemployment rate is a factor in recruitment to all programmes. Long-term unemployment is expected to fall further this year in line with the continuing forecasted fall in overall unemployment. Given the significant drop in the live register, it does not necessarily follow that difficulties filling vacancies would not have arisen if any of our schemes did not exist.

In the context of the economic recovery, my Department undertook a review of all the work programmes in 2016. While the primary focus was on CE, the review also looked at other employment programmes, such as Tús. Arising from the review, the Government agreed to implement changes to the qualifying conditions for CE in order to broaden access to a wider range of people. These new rules were implemented in July 2017. They included the qualifying age being reduced to 21 years. In addition, while, in general, all placements will now be for one year only, if a CE participant is undertaking training to achieve a major award, the participant's time can be extended by up to two years to allow him or her to complete the training which will enhance his or her overall employment prospects. This allows for three years continuous participation on the CE schemes. Those over the age of 55 years can also remain on CE for three years. In addition, the reference year for CE participation was moved from 2000 to 2007 which ensures that more people can re-qualify for the programme. Overall, these changes improve the way the schemes operate and will allow more people who are long-term unemployed to access them. I will continue to keep this whole area under review so that these schemes provide real and valuable support to both individuals and communities.

I acknowledge the work that those on CE schemes and their host organisations do in communities. We all know the real value of the services they provide and are appreciative of it.

The Government is mindful of the large number of work programme places involved in service delivery and other valuable services around the country. In this regard, if any scheme is experiencing particular recruitment difficulties, it should contact its local Intreo centre for assistance.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister for her response. In outlining the role of the CE and Tús schemes, the Minister indicates that the Government does not see them as sustainable pathways for people on their own and that her primary focus in relation to their objective is entirely towards placing people back in employment. While that is a key objective, we also have to recognise the tremendous role which these schemes, and those who work on them, carry out in communities, whether it be in community associations, Tidy Towns groups, crèches, soccer clubs or GAA clubs. In many ways, those who contribute to their community through a participation in a CE or Tús scheme help make communities tick and help make sustainable communities. It is important we recognise that.

It is also important we recognise that it is appropriate that some, particularly those who are reaching the end of their working life but who are also reaching the limit in terms of their participation in Tús or CE schemes, be allowed to continue to contribute to the community and that the guillotine simply does not come down and leave them in a situation where they are blocked from further participation in a scheme and contributing to their community and also not in a position to get employment. We need to review the position in that regard.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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A Aire?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, am I not in next?

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That is not the way it operates. The Minister will respond and then Deputy Lawless will have an opportunity to pose his first supplementary.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Sorry, five minutes are dedicated to each question. Is that 60 minutes in total? If so, how is the time allocated? I have yet to speak on my question.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Lawless will get his minute.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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One minute?

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Two one-minute opportunities. That is the norm.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Two one-minute slots?

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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For clarity, Deputy McConalogue asks-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Hold on, let us clarify it. Following long-standing tradition, the Deputy who tables the question that happens to be first, Question No. 6, - Deputy Lawless's question is Question No. 8 - is Deputy McConalogue. Only one Member can pose the question. Deputy McConalogue has posed the question. He has questioned the Minister. The Minister will respond. Then Deputy Lawless will have an opportunity to question the Minister and she will respond. However, Deputy Lawless will have two opportunities. Deputy Lawless is not being deprived of anything other than that he cannot pose the question, which is there in writing anyway. Has Deputy Lawless an issue?

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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It appears, if I added the time, that my question is receiving less time in this arrangement than if the questions were taken separately.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Yes, 30 seconds less.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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Do I get a first supplementary?

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Lawless gets two supplementaries. He has lost nothing, except 30 seconds that are on the Order Paper anyway.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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To be 100% sure, I did not say the CE schemes and Tús were unsustainable. They are not providing sustainable, long-term jobs and they were never designed to do that. They are employment activation schemes, which is what it says in the documents from when the Deputy's party started CE schemes. Many people are providing services in their communities and I agree with the Deputy that communities could not survive without them. I acknowledge, respect and totally appreciate what they do. They do not see it as employment activation; they genuinely see it as a job and a service and they are incredibly proud to do it. We have broken hearts by the way the system currently operates. If one reads between the lines, I am telling the Deputy I agree with him. If a CE placement gives a person pride in serving his or her community, I do not see the benefit, if he or she does not have a job to go to, of taking the person off that scheme and sending him or her home to be in his or her house for a year before he or she can qualify. We are continually looking at the two schemes and if and when I can make changes to reflect what I think the Deputy feels, I will try to make those changes. The difficulty we have is they were established purely as activation measures to move people into jobs. In some cases, with older people, for example, those jobs just do not exist. I think I agree with the Deputy.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I echo and endorse everything my colleague, Deputy McConalogue, said. I have a very similar position. The Minister's answer touched on this a number of times. Are these schemes intended solely as job activation measures or are they recognised as having a social inclusion element, which is absolutely essential? As Deputy McConalogue alluded to, many of these schemes facilitate individuals who may not be in a position to attract normal, gainful employment and who may not be able to contribute in a commercial environment but who can contribute effectively, productively and usefully to their communities. There are two groups of people affected by the difficulty in sourcing people for community employment schemes, the difficulty getting onto Tús schemes and the impact that JobPath, Turas Nua and Seetec are having on that. We have two groups of people who are losing out. We have the individuals themselves who in many cases are denied the opportunity for dignified and worthwhile activity and an occupation that gives them pride, a reason to get up in the mornings and all the other good things such as contributing to mental health. We also have the host organisations, whether they are GAA clubs, parish councils, tidy towns groups, local history groups or heritage groups, which are invariably working in the community on a not-for-profit basis. They are coming to us and saying they do not have the stream of assistance which was beneficial to both the individual and the host organisation. It conflicts with the two new providers, Turas Nua and Seetec, which maybe have a more commercial focus. There are measures that could be introduced to tackle that and let them work more closely together in a more collaborative fashion. I hope the Minister will look at that.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy made up his 30 seconds.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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We have our ways. Everything the Deputy has said is true. There are hundreds, if not thousands of participants, in CE and Tús schemes who are doing social inclusion activities and our communities desperately rely on them. The problem is my Department was not established, and CE and Tús were not established, to provide social inclusion services. It is an employment activation measure. It is no different from JobPath, which is not commercial; it is an employment activation measure. The sole purpose in statute for the organisations that are hosting CE and Tús schemes is to give employment experience and opportunities to people so they can move on to full-time sustainable jobs. The dilemma we have is that tens of thousands of people who have participated in them will probably never - or will never want to - get a full-time sustainable job. I do not know how to change that because if I change it, it will not be an employment activation scheme and will not fall under the remit of the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. I acknowledge there are thousands of people on CE schemes who respect and value the social inclusion services they provide but do not achieve employment activation. We need to square that circle by acknowledging, respecting and rewarding what they are doing but not under the guise of employment activation because if we continue to call these schemes employment activation schemes, we have to continue to move people on which is causing upset to the host organisations, the community service organisations and groups and the people who are doing the work.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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One would think from listening to the Minister that there is some higher power above the Minister, Government and national Parliament forcing these schemes to operate the way they do and tying the Minister's hands. The reality is it is within the power of the Minister, Government and Parliament to influence and mould these schemes and to shape them in a way that is appropriate. I am very proud it was my party that established the CE schemes in the first place because of the tremendous role they have gone on to play and the people within them who contribute on a daily basis to the local communities. We need to acknowledge how it has evolved and what is involved in it now and we need to ensure it can continue to fulfil that purpose. That requires amending it as appropriate. We should keep its job placement and empowerment potential while recognising it has another role to facilitate many people in the community who will not go on to other jobs and who contribute to their communities. Many of those people are forced to leave the scheme and are then not able to contribute or get a job. The Minister can change that and we are saying she should change it and look at it again.

Will the Minister comment on the supervisors who were in full-time jobs managing these schemes over the years? Will the Minister give us an update on the position on the 2008 Labour Court recommendation that required them to be provided with pensions? That is something the Government is yet to follow through on.

James Lawless (Kildare North, Fianna Fail)
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I will suggest a number of changes to the Minister which she may be able to make. The first is a realignment. She mentioned the difficulty of job activation versus social inclusion. The Minister, Deputy Ring, took his first question time in seven months yesterday. Perhaps his Department of Rural and Community Development could assist in this. Historically, there was a cross-departmental approach to these schemes. Maybe sometimes things moved from one Department to another. Perhaps we could recategorise at least part of the scheme to help with that. An assessment should be done upfront when somebody is referred to JobPath rather than a person spending 12 months going through a programme which may not be suitable for them. It may be eminently suitable for many individuals but there are some who may not be a good match. That should be identified in the first week or two and they should be sent back to CE or Tús if that is more appropriate. I understand that Turas Nua and Seetec would be happy to facilitate that. If a person is working in his or her local GAA hall as part of the CE scheme and is only required by JobPath to be available for one 30-minute session a week, for example, for interview preparation, there is no need for that person to sit at home for four and a half days of that week when he or she could be back working in the GAA hall. Allowing people to remain on the CE scheme while in JobPath, if it does not hinder their efforts in the JobPath scheme, would be very welcome. The rules on eligibility and continuation, especially for older people, who present greater complexities when re-entering the job market should be considered. The rules around the barrier to re-entry if somebody comes off a JobPath should also be looked at. People should not be prohibited from going straight back to a CE scheme if that option is open to them. They are some immediate changes that could be made and would be welcome. If there is an issue with categorisation I am sure it could be solved. If they need to be called social inclusion schemes, let us call them that. If we need to go to the Department of Rural and Community Development, let us do it.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The JobPath people, Turas Nua and Seetec, do not select their candidates. We pick the candidates and we only pick people who are suitable for JobPath. It is not the case that people sit down in an Intreo office and say they want to do the CE scheme but we say they cannot and that we are sending them to JobPath. We only send people to JobPath who are jobs ready and need help on a one-to-one basis which might aid them getting a full-time, sustainable job. Deputy McConalogue takes the credit for setting up the CE scheme because Fianna Fáil was in power for hundreds and hundreds of years. I give him that credit.

Charlie McConalogue (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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And will be again.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The problem is that when Fianna Fáil established it, it established it as an employment activation measure which is why it sits neatly into the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection. What the Department does not do is provide employment; we provide social inclusion measures. The difficulty with trying to do what I wanted to do before Christmas is that we cannot neatly separate all the people on all the schemes. It is not the case that, for example, a host company in Donegal is doing only social inclusion and a host company in Letterkenny is doing entirely work experience and activation and, therefore, we could separate them. That is not the reality. The reality is that on every single scheme, we have people who are doing social inclusion measures and people who are doing employment activation and training measures. How do we have different rules for the same people who are on the same schemes? It is not possible. If we bring it back to the higher power, which is what the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection is, it is statutorily responsible for employment activation and the welfare of people who are required to be looked after by the State.

At no point does it state that I am responsible for providing services to communities. Therefore, I cannot separate them out even if it was physically possible for me to do it because it would not be within the remit of my Department. I am trying to reflect the reality that some people who are involved in Tús and CE most likely will never work again in full-time employment because of their age or other difficulties they might have. I am trying to be flexible with the terms-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has exceeded the time.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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-----of the CE schemes to allow and respect the contribution these people are making to their communities while still remaining under the remit of my Department-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We have to observe the time.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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-----which I am legally obliged to do.