Dáil debates

Wednesday, 13 December 2017

12:00 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yesterday I visited the Capuchin Day Centre to meet those at the coalface of providing services for homeless adults and children. Brother Kevin's organisation is an iconic illustration of the generosity of people and the wider community. To witness volunteers from all strata of society is heartening; what is not so heartening is the lack of a proper meaningful response from Government. The reality from the front line is there is a terrible disconnect between official pronouncements on housing and homelessness and the experiences of those who are without homes. When I visited the centre in April, I raised some issues with the Taoiseach's predecessor. I pointed out that in 2013 there were 4,747 children attending for lunch and by 2016 the number was 8,353. That is a 76% increase and a shocking indictment on society and Government. I was there with Deputy Barry Cowen yesterday and, depressingly, the figures are getting worse rather than better. The figures for children attending for meals at the centre between January and September 2017 are worse than the figures for the entirety of 2016. In 2017, 4,500 people attended the medical clinic in the centre. Prescription charges are paid for by the organisation. There are 700 people for dinner every day and another 300 for breakfast. Every week, 1,900 food parcels are given out; 3,000 people are expected in Christmas week; and 250 baby parcels are given out weekly, which is a new service. The centre raised €3.5 million from people; the Government gives it €450,000.

More crucially, when I raised it in the Dáil last April, I raised some very specific issues. The first was the appointment of a social worker to the centre. The second issue was the appointment of a child welfare officer to act as first responder particularly in the case of child protection issues. In terms of child protection issues, the workers at the centre are very worried about the vulnerability of children who attend. They were promised a HSE link officer or child welfare officer. The centre has not had a social worker since 2012. The prescription charge should be waived for medical services at the centre. The Minister, Deputy Zappone, visited last year and the Minister, Deputy Harris, visited last November. Commitments were given on all those fronts and none was delivered. Nothing has happened, which I find extraordinary and unacceptable. Will the Taoiseach intervene and ensure the appointment of a dedicated social worker to the centre? Will he intervene and ensure the appointment of a child welfare officer to protect vulnerable people? Will he acknowledge that the housing plan is not working? There is no difference on the ground despite all the statements we are getting. The reality on the ground is becoming depressingly worse from talking to those at the coalface.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As the Deputy has acknowledged, a number of Ministers have visited the centre in recent times. The Ministers, Deputies Harris, Coveney and Zappone, have attended so I do not know why a social worker or child welfare officer has not been appointed but I will follow it up. I was not aware of the issue until this morning. I will check up on it.

In terms of issues more generally, it is important that I say the Government takes issues such as child poverty and housing very seriously. As I said yesterday, I believe homelessness is a stain on our society. We will do everything we can to reduce it in the years ahead and eliminate it if possible. The housing plan is working but it will take time. We are seeing a very significant increase in the number of social houses being built and provided. There will be about 2,000 this year and 3,800 next year. When one adds in other things such as voids, long-term leases and purchases of privately developed housing, it will be 7,000 next year. This year if we take the private and public sector together we will probably build more new homes than any year since 2010. What happened in this country, largely as a consequence of economic mismanagement in the past, was a construction and banking collapse. As a consequence of that, for the best part of seven years very few new homes were built either by the private sector or the Government so we are catching up on seven years during which there was no housing supply. It will take us time to catch up. Notwithstanding that, every day people are being housed by the Government. Every working day, 80 individuals and their families are provided with housing by the Government. They are new tenancies and by next year, we will increase it to 100 a day. We are starting to see some results. It is significant that the number of families in bed and breakfast accommodation and hotels is falling and shows evidence of some progress. I was pleased to visit one of the family hubs last week to see how they operate and to see the quality of the accommodation that is now provided.

When it comes to rough sleeping, we have provided extra capacity in the system to make sure that nobody has to sleep rough over the winter period and into the spring and beyond. An extra 200 single and double beds have been provided across the city to make sure nobody has to sleep rough. We know from last Sunday night's count that there were spare beds available for both men and women in the city.

In terms of the issues the Deputy raised around children in general, I have not had a chance to visit the centre but I hope to do so in the future. I do not know what type of system of means testing is used. The broader picture regarding child welfare and child poverty is that child poverty is falling again having risen for a number of years. We have seen an increase in employment which is putting more money in parents' pockets and we are seeing some real differences. They are not just words; they are real differences and real changes introduced by Government both this year and next year. For example, in a few weeks' time, the prescription charge will go down for everyone under 70, including children. We will continue to reduce it in the years ahead as resources allow. Social welfare payments are going up. They went up this year for the first time in eight years. They will go up again next year from March. We have expanded free school meals, something I did as Minister for Social Protection, to all DEIS schools and beyond DEIS schools because more than half of children who are disadvantaged are not in DEIS schools. We are making real efforts as a Government and if the Deputy is honest about it and looks at the broader picture, he will see some progress is being made but we are only getting started.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach might forgive me for being somewhat cynical about all of that because when I raised it last April, the Taoiseach's predecessor said the Government was very ambitious and that it would build 650 rapid build houses in 2017. I think 76 have been delivered. That is our problem. I have heard all this before in 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016 and 2017. I have heard it all and I have seen very little delivery on the ground. Ministers visited the centre and a child welfare officer could not be appointed to the centre for some reason - I do not know what it is. The centre depends on the generosity of people for money. They got €3.5 million through collections and €450,000 from Government. Surely, the least the Government could do is ensure that the Ministers who visit follow through on the visit and make sure the issue of child protection in particular is looked after and that such an officer is provided as well as a social worker and other services it requires. There are fantastic examples of volunteers. The Peter McVerry Trust, Simon Communities, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul, Focus Ireland and the Penny Dinners all say it is getting worse on the ground.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Fianna Fáil is opposing social housing. Its councillors are opposing-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The question I put-----

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a laugh.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----is why is the State so incapable of building houses on a scale necessary-----

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy should talk to some of his councillors.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to match the emergency of the housing crisis. We have 35,000 people on the HAP scheme now.

HAP has been the main instrument to stem the tide here but it is not satisfactory.

12:10 pm

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy's time is up.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In my view, to date the initiatives have failed spectacularly relative to the scale of the crisis and the number of children and adults who are homeless. I say that genuinely. The plans have not worked.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On the first matter, I will check up on the issue of the social worker and the child protection officer; the Deputy has my assurance on that. Tusla has been given a €14 million budget increase next year to allow it to hire additional staff and social workers. I will certainly check up on that with the Minister, Deputy Zappone. As the Deputy knows, this week we passed a very important child-protection milestone with the introduction at long last of mandatory reporting. That has been promised for a very long time and I am pleased to be leading the Government that made that happen this week. I particularly compliment the Independent Minister in my Government, Deputy Zappone, for delivering that and making it happen. I will raise that issue with her.

Our housing plan will take time. I have explained the backdrop to this - a six or seven-year period after the economic crisis in the causing of which Fianna Fáil had a very significant hand. We had a six or seven-year period during which the private sector was not in a position to build homes because the banks and the construction industry had collapsed.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Government was in denial. It did not believe in the crisis.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Up until this year the Government was running a deficit - we still have a small deficit this year - and was not in a position to build as many homes as we would have liked to have built.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

However, it would like to give tax cuts to the better-off in society. It is important for Fine Gael.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are seeing that change now and housing is being built on a scale we have not seen in six or seven years. In social housing alone, this year we expect about 2,800 homes to be built. That is before voids, long-term leases, Part V houses and others are counted. Next year that figure will increase to 3,800, which will be as much as 7,000 when long-term leases, voids and purchase from the private sector are included.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Taoiseach.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It cannot just go up like this. Housing construction has to be scaled up in a way that is sustainable. It requires sites, planning permissions, land, carpenters, plumbers and engineers. We also need councillors on board. That will take time.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That question went on for in excess of ten minutes. The rules of the House provide for eight minutes. Perhaps we might look at providing additional time for questions if people are going to continue to ignore the rules and speak on.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Ceann Comhairle would want another warning on his clock.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would be afraid of that.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Human tendency.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach will recall that I raised the crisis in respite care with him last Wednesday following the RTÉ "Carers in Crisis" programme. During Leaders' Questions, I made a modest proposal to increase respite care hours by 20%, which would cost €13 million. I also proposed that the Government should provide 2 million additional home-help hours and 2,500 home-care packages at a cost of €72 million. The Taoiseach committed to examine these proposals. I then wrote to him setting these out in more detail. I have yet to receive a reply but I hope that is an indication that he is still considering these proposals. It would make a meaningful long-term difference to the lives of people with disabilities.

Yesterday the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, announced that he had secured an additional €10 million for respite services, which I welcome, particularly as some of it will be allocated to my constituency. According to the 2016 census, more than 20,000 people in Louth and east Meath have a disability. They also have less services than other parts of the State. Only nine respite beds are available for adults with intellectual disabilities and there are no emergency services. The Government needs to do a lot of work to rectify this. The new services announced yesterday need to be put in place go gasta. The details of a plan need to be revealed as quickly as possible. The HSE was not able to give us any details this morning.

Yesterday's announcement was long overdue. Some of it is deficient. For example, only one in four full-time carers will be eligible for a free GP-visit card as announced yesterday. That is because the card will be given only to carers in receipt of the carer's allowance. All of these carers should be allocated medical cards.

Last week my proposition included the provision of home-help hours and home-care packages. There is no mention of this in yesterday's announcement. Perhaps the Taoiseach will get around to this when he eventually gets around to answering my letter. As a doctor, I am sure the Taoiseach is aware the issue of in-home respite hours is crucial for some families. On a number of occasions I have raised with the him the case of Brendan, who has not got any in-home respite hours in the past five months. Incidentally, he got a total of 15 nights' respite in the past year. In another case, Sam, whose mother the Taoiseach has met, has not got respite care since he turned 18. When will they be able to get their respite care? I ask the Taoiseach to outline the timetable for the services announced yesterday. When will he respond to my other proposals?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I finished on time, a Cheann Comhairle - no waffle.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Spot on. Maith an fear.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As the House may be aware from these interactions, Deputy Adams writes me an awful lot of letters; he is a very prolific pen pal. It takes some time to reply to so many letters.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is what parliamentarians do.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will certainly reply to it in the normal course.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is normal courtesy.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have not had a chance to see it yet. He will receive an acknowledgement within two weeks and a full reply after that. Everyone is treated equally in that regard. I know the Deputy is a great believer in equality and so he would not want his letter answered any quicker than anyone else's-----

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, I would.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----and it will not be.

I am happy to confirm that the Government announced yesterday an extra €10 million for respite care. That will provide an additional 19,000 respite nights per year for people who need it, which is an important step forward, and nine new dedicated houses for respite will be established throughout 2018, with one in each community health area. The Minister of State with responsibility for disability, Deputy Finian McGrath, from the Independent Alliance part of the Government, has done a huge amount of work on this issue and will provide more details in the coming weeks. That will be contained in the HSE's detailed operational plan, which usually comes out early in the new year.

Home-help hours and home-care packages are matters for the 2018 HSE service plan, which we hope to have ready in a few weeks' time.

It was also announced yesterday that people in receipt of carer's allowance would receive a doctor-visit card as a right. Deputies, who are familiar with the system, will know that the carer's allowance is given to full-time carers and is means tested. I cannot remember the details of the means test off the top of my head, but it is one of the more generous means tests in the social welfare system. Essentially the carer's allowance is geared to people who have had to give up a job in order to care full time. It provides income support they would not otherwise get. It is a positive announcement and an important move forward by the Government that people who are in receipt of carer's allowance will have a doctor-visit card as a right. Respite allows the person who needs care to be cared for but we also need to care for carers themselves. That is why it is important that they should be able to visit their doctor without having to pay.

This is about something I genuinely believe in, which is incremental, sustainable progress. This is not just the end; it is part of what we are doing. Last year, for example, we restored in full the respite care grant, now called the carer's support grant. We increased the carer's allowance for the first time in eight years. We also changed the rules so that when somebody is no longer caring, they continue to get the carer's allowance for 12 weeks to give them time to get their life back in order. Next year, we will announce an extra €10 million for respite, a doctor-visit card for every person receiving carer's allowance as a right and an increase in the carer's allowance again in March. In a sustainable incremental way, I want every year to do two or three significant things that improve the lives of people with disabilities and improve the lives of their carers. That is the commitment the Government is demonstrating and following through on.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The reason I wrote to the Taoiseach was because he was not able to answer my questions. I hope he will do so quickly and I hope he does not send me a "Dear John" letter.

According to a response received last night to a parliamentary question from an Teachta Louise O'Reilly, our health spokesperson, the HSE will have provided 14,293 fewer overnight respite sessions and 591 fewer day respite sessions this year than it did last year. When that is put into the package announced yesterday, the additional €10 million is supposed to provide 19,000 respite nights. In effect that means the HSE will be providing an additional 4,707 respite sessions over what it provided in 2016.

The Taoiseach should figure that out. That is the way it works out. If that is not accurate, he should tell me, but if it is accurate, does he agree with me that it is not good enough? There is a lot of catching up to be done on this issue. This is about citizens who have rights and who want to be treated as citizens despite the fact that they have disabilities. They need to be given full services, and the Taoiseach's Government needs to fix itself in terms of that function.

12:20 pm

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As I said in my earlier response, the Minister of State with responsibility for disability affairs, Deputy Finian McGrath, will produce the details of all of this in the next week or so, in part to do with the Health Service Executive, HSE, service plan for 2018 and then the operational plans which happen in the new year.

When I mentioned examples of the incremental progress we are making as a Government, one I forgot to mention is that last year we extended as a right the full medical card to children who have severe disabilities and need care, regardless of their parents' income. As a result of that, an additional 10,000 children became entitled to a full medical card last year and 40,000 children received a medical card this year without any reviews. If anyone is being reasonable in their assessment, they will see that what we are trying to do, now that have fixed the economy, balanced the books and the economy is in a strong place, is to make incremental progress year on year to improve living standards, especially for those who need assistance the most such as carers and people with disabilities. I accept that we are catching up. That is absolutely right. We will catch up and we will make more progress every year for as long as this Government is in office. I have a different philosophy to Deputy Adams, who is a revolutionary socialist. He believes in destroying the system, removing everything, bringing it down to a certain level, and then creating some sort of Utopia.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Will the Taoiseach read about socialism?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not believe in that.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Keep the recovery going.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I believe in the philosophy of Prosser and Smith, and I believe in incremental progress. The first thing to do is to put the economy on a sustainable footing, balance the books and then deliver incremental social progress year on year in a way that is sustainable. That is something this Government is doing.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Parents in this country are under pressure. The cost of accommodation is out of control and out of the reach of too many. Child care bills are rising. There is no sign of any incremental progress on the extension of general practitioner, GP, care for children on which we were making progress. The modern workplace puts enormous pressure on parents. They fight to sustain their careers and raise their families but the recent budget did little for those parents. There was no increase in child benefit. Crèches raised their prices. There was no subsidy increase on child care and nothing to address the ever-rising price of a home. They got tax cuts that cost them money because they have to pay more for the basic services the State should be providing from health care to child care to education.

Last week, the ESRI made it official. It did not get much notice, but its study on the distributional impact of tax and welfare in the last budget confirmed that it would not even give the price of a cup of coffee. Instead, it would cost people. It shows all income groups will suffer losses, with the lowest income groups being hardest hit and the best off losing least. Families with a single earner lose most. In an economy where the cost of everything is increasing and where wages are not rising fast enough, people will be worse off. In a recovering economy, that is some achievement.

There are actions that could be taken that would give parents a break. Parents in Ireland have the right to 18 weeks of unpaid parental leave. For many, that leave is absolutely necessary to care for a sick child or other issues, but it is at a huge cost. A Programme for a Partnership Government states that the Government will increase paid parental leave in the first year of birth. In the manifesto for leadership that the Taoiseach produced, he said he would improve and extend contributory benefits such as parental leave. He said something similar in his address to the Fine Gael national conference recently, yet The Sunday Timesreported last weekend, in a report written by Valerie Flynn, that the Government wants to delay the implementation of the new European Union law that would give Irish workers the right to four months of paid parental leave. An Irish official was reported to have said that the Irish Government has reservations about these matters.

My question is a simple one. Why, on the one hand, is the Government saying it wants to give paid parental leave when, on the other, behind closed doors in Brussels, it is saying the opposite? Will the Government introduce four months of paid parental leave as is being discussed in the EU directive, and when will it do so?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am not involved personally in the negotiations in Brussels but it is Government policy that we want to introduce paid parental leave allowing parents to share the leave among themselves. Currently, maternity benefit and paternity benefit are separate. We would like to have a parental leave with parental benefit attached to it, which would allow parents to share it, and we will be guided by the European law in that regard. If the Deputy wants evidence of that, this Government of Fine Gael, the Independent Alliance and Independents have increased maternity benefit and paternity benefit twice. We have extended maternity benefit to cover children who were born prematurely to give their mothers more time with them. We have also introduced paid paternity leave and gave an increase. It is our plan to move towards a new system of parental leave with parental benefit attached to it, which parents can share, although realistically we are talking about legislation next year and its introduction the year after that.

The Deputy will know that the ESRI does its analysis in a particular way. He was a major critic of it when he was around the Cabinet table and he will know that when the ESRI does its analysis, it does not take into account the benefit of any service improvements so if we improve the health service, education or bring in subsidised child care, that does not count for anything using the ESRI simulating welfare and income tax changes, SWITCH, analysis. It also uses a particular system where it adjusts for average increases in wage earnings.

What people will do throughout January is look at their payslips and throughout January, February and March they will look at the amount of money coming into their pockets. The people who are working will see a reduction in their universal social charge. People on middle incomes will see that the standard rate cut-off point will go up and they will pay less of their income at the higher rate. People who need medicines will find that their prescription charges go down in January not just for people with medical cards, but also those who do not have medical cards. People with children will find that they are getting a full second year of free preschool. People who are on low pay, such as those on the minimum wage, will see the minimum wage go up in January. Public servants will see pay restoration and pay increases happening in two tranches next year, in January and October. People whose children are in receipt of child care, particularly those with children between six months and three years, will see the subsidies for child care continuing throughout the year, with targeted benefits for those on low incomes. As mentioned earlier, people in receipt of carer's allowance will see a right to a GP visit card being extended to them. Low income families, those in receipt of family income supplement, will gain as much as €10 extra a week from March when those changes come into effect and lone parents who are working will have significant gains as well. The Deputy can try to denigrate the Government achievements all he likes. What we are starting to see now, which is something I am committed to making happen as Taoiseach and as Head of this Government, is all individuals and all families in all parts of the country seeing their living standards improve as the economy improves.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We are now entering a Trump world of alternative facts. The truth is that most people will see some improvement to the value of about a cup of coffee. The real cost of providing child care and being able to afford a home is receding from them, but that reality is lost on the Taoiseach. On the net question I asked, the Taoiseach stated that he is in favour of paid parental leave but we will have a law next year and perhaps parental leave being paid the year after that. Is it the Taoiseach's commitment in his programme for Government or his leadership manifesto that it may happen in two years' time? Why is it reported that he is resisting the EU legislation or is the report, authoritatively put in one of the national newspapers, false? Is that what the Taoiseach is saying?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To be very clear about this, we already have paid parental leave but we do it in a particular way. We have maternity leave and maternity benefit for the mother and paternity leave and paternity benefit for the father. As a Government, we have increased the cash payment in the last budget and will increase it again in March. We also brought in new rules, particularly around premature babies. That is the current system.

What the Government wants to do and wants to see happen at a European level is a move to a new system of parental leave which would effectively replace maternity and paternity leave and allow couples the autonomy to choose how to share that leave. At present, a European regulation to bring that into effect is under discussion. I am not party to the detailed negotiations on that but I can absolutely assure Deputy Howlin that the Government intends to support the regulation, introduce parental leave and parental benefit in Ireland and change the current system to the one I have outlined. There should still be dedicated maternity leave for mothers because they are the ones who give birth and they need particular time to recover. There should be a dedicated carve-out for mothers, and then perhaps the rest can be shared between the two parents.

Before we introduce legislation, we want to find out what the European legislation is going to be. It would make no sense at all for this Government to enact legislation in respect of parental leave here in Ireland in the next few months only to discover six months later that there is a European directive or regulation to which it runs contrary.

12:30 pm

Photo of Noel GrealishNoel Grealish (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Community employment, CE, schemes have transformed rural towns and villages throughout the country and given exceptional support to charitable groups and organisations. They worked extremely well for years until the Government started tinkering with them, constantly changing the rules and regulations to such an extent that their future is being put in jeopardy. Sponsors are being scared off by the increasingly demanding conditions being placed on them, on the supervisors they employ to run these schemes and on participants. We saw evidence of this in Galway city earlier this year when a project which provided valuable experience was closed by the sponsoring group. This was probably not the first - it certainly will not be the last - sponsor to pull out of a CE scheme or decide against opting into one because of the barriers that are placed in the way of the schemes.

While this Government and the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection claim to be supportive of the work being done through CE schemes, their actions suggest otherwise. The only satisfied party involved is the Department. The time participants are allowed to spend on schemes and the amount of training involved have both been reduced. Costs have risen but cuts to the budget for materials have not been restored. This has resulted in a fall in productivity of the schemes. It also means that there is no sustainability of service. CE schemes are among the few subventions the State offers to voluntary groups, whose sustainability often depends on the work being carried out by the participants on the scheme. The constant changing of work practices of participants and supervisors and the obligations of sponsors have diminished the appeal of these schemes for everyone. It is funny that the Department should constantly trot out the line that the people taking part in these schemes are not employed by it. In doing so, it can keep them at arm's length. However, it is the Department which keeps laying down new demands on how the schemes should be run.

I would like to pay special tribute to the supervisors, who are the linchpins of the schemes.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Photo of Noel GrealishNoel Grealish (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Many voluntary sponsoring groups and sponsoring chairmen are largely unaware of the full responsibility being placed on them because of the efficiency of the supervisors in looking after all aspects of the schemes. The Department does not seem to acknowledge the vast amount of work being undertaken by supervisors, and how constantly changing procedures and requirements make this role extremely difficult. This group of people do not have pensions or contracts of indefinite duration and have had no pay increases in the past ten years despite Labour Court recommendations. The benchmarking procedure relating to them has been abandoned and there has been a long, drawn-out process regarding pensions. The latter are currently being examined by the community sector high-level forum. Having spoken with a number of supervisors, I know that they do not hold out any great hope of a positive outcome in the context of the forum's consideration of the pensions issue.

Will the Taoiseach acknowledge the tremendous work being done by CE schemes and ensure that the Department rights a wrong for supervisors by providing them with proper contracts, a pay increase and pension rights, which are long overdue?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I join Deputy Grealish in acknowledging the value of CE schemes. As Deputies, we are all familiar with them in our constituencies. As a former Minister for Social Protection, I am very familiar with them. I am also aware of the fact that the CE system was established by my party many decades ago. That is something of which we are very proud. Having established CE-----

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Is the Taoiseach talking about CE schemes? They were established by former Deputy Ruairí Quinn.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not believe Deputy Howlin is correct.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am. Community employment was piloted in Wexford.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The strategic communications unit is really working overtime.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach claims everything.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will double check. We were certainly in government at the time in any event. It started off as a different scheme, called social employment, and then became community employment.

CE has huge value. It has a duel value in that it provides employment and training opportunities for people, and also provides important community services as well. The number of people on CE schemes stands at 21,956. That is down by approximately 2% on last year, which makes sense when the economy is growing, when there is more employment and when there are fewer people who are unemployed. As unemployment goes up and employment falls, the numbers increase.

On the issue of the CE supervisors, I am advised that they have been seeking, through their trade unions, the allocation of Exchequer funding to implement a Labour Court recommendation which was issued on 22 July 2008 relating to the provision of a pension scheme. The CE scheme supervisors are not employees of the State or the Government. They are employees of private companies in some cases and of community and voluntary sector bodies in others. The taxpayer, therefore, is not responsible for funding the pensions of such employees, even when the companies involved are reliant on State funding for their operations. The same would apply, for example, to commercial entities that do work for the State, to individual contractors who do work for the State and to semi-State companies as well. As the Deputy will know, Labour Court findings are made in respect of employers. As the employer in this instance was not the State-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is cheap labour.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----the Labour Court finding was made not-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is very hard to answer questions in this House sometimes.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes, when one talks rubbish.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We know that.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As the Labour Court finding applies to the employer, and the State is not the employer, the Labour Court finding does not apply to the State. One thing that the Government and the House must always do is look out for taxpayers and respect them. If we were to take on the pension liabilities of people who are not public servants and who work for voluntary or private bodies, the impact on and the liability for the taxpayer would be very great indeed.

Photo of Noel GrealishNoel Grealish (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I totally disagree with the Taoiseach. The CE schemes do tremendous work. These schemes would not be in operation if it were not for the supervisors. The supervisors on CE schemes run by certain local authorities, including Galway City Council, and Údarás na Gaeltachta have full pension rights. The Taoiseach must solve this issue. The supervisors are employed through the CE schemes. However, those schemes are administered by the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection, which, in turn, is controlled by the Government. The Department constantly imposes rules and regulations on these schemes and tells those involved how they should be run. New procedures are being brought in every week and the supervisors have to implement them. Those people are entitled to absolutely nothing when they retire. I know one supervisor who cannot even get a mortgage in view of the pittance he is being paid.

The Taoiseach must right this wrong. The supervisors should be brought under the remit of the Department. They should be entitled to pensions and should be put on proper contracts of work. I ask that the Taoiseach intervene personally in order to resolve this issue as a matter of urgency.

Photo of Mary ButlerMary Butler (Waterford, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hear, hear.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The same would apply to many fields of endeavour, many businesses and lots of work. There are many examples of where the Government sets the rules and regulations and designs the contract. However, that does not mean that the Government is then required to cover the pension liabilities of the people who work for the relevant body-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

These people are doing the Government's work.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----or company.

Photo of Noel GrealishNoel Grealish (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What happens when the supervisors pull out? Who is going to do all the work then?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is always open to individuals to make provision for their pensions-----

Photo of Michael CollinsMichael Collins (Cork South West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is a disgraceful comment.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----by paying into a pension fund or a personal retirement savings account, PRSA, and that, of course, is what public servants do. If one is a teacher or a civil servant and one works for the public service, one makes contributions to the public pension fund.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

So do employers.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputies may be aware that this issue is currently being examined by the community sector high level forum, which is chaired by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.

The Departments of Employment Affairs and Social Protection; Health; Education and Skills; and Housing, Planning and Local Government are represented in this group, as are Pobal, SIPTU and IMPACT. The forum last met on 23 November 2017 and a paper outlining the costs was presented. The unions have agreed to review the paper and revert on it as soon as possible. Following on from this, a meeting will be arranged between the trade unions and Deputy Donohoe as the Minister for Finance. It is important to point out that community employment scheme supervisors may qualify for a State pension, either means tested or contributory.