Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Before, during and after the strike at Bus Éireann, the Minister gave commitments on the floor of the Dáil that he would convene a forum involving all stakeholders to facilitate engagement on public transport. The Bus Éireann strike finished in mid-April so between then and October there were six long months in which the Minister did not convene such a meeting. He did not set a date or terms of reference for the meeting. There has been nothing. Was that a stalling tactic and did the Minister deliberately mislead the House in saying he would give a commitment to set up that stakeholders' forum to bring everybody around the table? Did the Minister have no intention of doing it?

Last year the Minister had sight of the rail review before it went to public consultation. It is back on the Minister's desk but he has not published it. Having had initial sight of it he would have seen the dire financial straits that Iarnród Éireann is experiencing. He would have seen flagged in the rail review serious safety issues apparent in Iarnród Éireann due to the lack of investment over the past decade and maintenance of vital infrastructure. In the budget a couple of weeks ago, the Minister for Finance indicated that transport had procured an additional €9.6 million. That is the only additional funding for the entire transport portfolio. It is fair to say the Minister has no interest in public transport and he certainly has no plan. Did he mislead the Dáil when he gave a commitment to convene the stakeholders' forum?

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I refer the Minister to the Taoiseach's comments yesterday. The Taoiseach is on a salary of over €180,000 and he supports the chief executive of Irish Rail, who gets over €211,000 per year. He told the Dáil the rail workers' demands are unaffordable. These demands equate to a pay rise of 3.75% after ten years of pay freezes, two years of pay cuts, increased productivity and rising passenger numbers. That is along with all the austerity imposed on us, including property tax, universal social charge and everything else. Apparently, an increase of 3.75% is unaffordable. Where does the Government get off? It is affordable to increase salaries for chief executive officers, the Taoiseach and Ministers but it is apparently not affordable to meet reasonable pay demands that are only keeping track with increased costs of living.

Many workers earning between €30,000 and €40,000 are enemy No. 1 for demanding a modest pay rise after a decade of these cuts and pay freezes. Since 2008, this State has cut subvention for rail from €181 million to €117 million. There were eight years of cuts, which were demanded by Irish Rail to plug the gap in funding, and this made employees work harder and longer for less work. Wage costs fell by €25 million and there has been a decrease of 20% in the staffing of the company. On the picket lines this week I spoke with drivers and other staff who are in fear of their lives running trains up and down the country with only two staff on them, the driver and AN Other. Often they deal with assaults, threats and can witness suicides. They are put under great duress. Trains are operating with a skeleton staff and they are not getting decent pay rises that would keep them ahead of cost increases.

What does the Minister have to say about that? Is this affordable or unaffordable? Will we treat these staff like nurses and teachers who we cannot recruit any more because we are not paying them enough to live in this increasingly costly country?

Shane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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I thank the Deputies for raising this truly Topical Issue. I share their disappointment that we have seen a second day of strike action at Iarnród Éireann but I am pleased, as I am sure they are, that both sides have accepted an invitation from the Labour Court to attend talks tomorrow morning. Deputies know I have consistently stated that difficult matters like these can only be resolved through open, constructive and realistic engagement between the company and its employees. I encourage both sides to engage constructively on the matter, as I am sure they are now intent on doing.

I have responsibility for policy and overall funding for public transport.

I am not involved in the day-to-day operations of public transport. Industrial relations and pay are a matter for the company and its employees. I have made clear time and again that I will not intervene in areas where it is not appropriate for a Minister to intervene.

In relation to funding of our public transport services I recognise that subvention levels were reduced during the recession, as the Deputies frequently and rightly point out. Most areas of public expenditure were reduced. However, the public service obligation, PSO, subvention increased last year, again this year and will increase yet further next year. Over the three years subvention will have increased by some 35% in total. In 2018, €285 million of Exchequer - taxpayer - funds will be allocated. The precise allocations to the individual transport companies will be decided by the National Transport Authority, NTA, in accordance with the various contract arrangements. Iarnród Éireann receives a significant portion of the total PSO funding available for all the public transport companies. In 2016 alone, it received 57% of the total PSO funding available for the CIÉ group and carried about 20% of the total passengers.

In budget 2018 we also announced €2.7 billion of Exchequer capital investment in public transport infrastructure and facilities over the next four years under the capital plan. This represents a 30% increase over the original capital plan allocations for 2018 to 2021 and will allow roll-out of a number of key infrastructure programmes to address congestion and emerging capacity constraints on our public transport system. The forthcoming ten year national investment plan, to be published in the coming months, will provide a ten year capital envelope for public transport to 2028. In answer to the question from Deputy Munster, a few months ago I made a commitment to engage in a dialogue with a wide range of public transport stakeholders and the process for setting this up has already begun. A constructive meeting took place on 10 July with all relevant trade union representatives and I found the exchange to be both useful and informative. I requested each of the unions to make submissions on the format and issues that might be covered by the proposed dialogue. They expressed an eagerness to do so and I look forward to receiving all of those submissions. Only one has been received to date. As previously indicated in this House, I would also welcome any suggestions that opposition spokespersons, including the two Deputies here, might have. However, as I have frequently stated, the proposed dialogue cannot take place under the threat of or during industrial action. I hope we will be able to go ahead with that dialogue shortly.

I welcome the intervention of the Labour Court and hope that the discussions, which will start tomorrow, will provide the basis for a lasting agreement between the company and its employees. It is vitally important for the travelling public and also for the staff and for the company itself that public transport continues and that the dispute is resolved in a realistic, fair and sustainable manner.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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This comes back to the Minister's commitment to the stakeholder's forum. That was on 10 July, some four months ago. The Minister could have picked up a phone and set a date. He could have decided to start with the meeting and then set the agenda and the terms of reference.

I am sure that, despite the Minister's apparent lack of interest in public transport, he is aware that this year alone CIÉ is expecting record passenger numbers and that revenue is at its highest level ever. The pay of drivers starts at €43,000. Does the Minister believe that the train drivers in Iarnród Éireann are less entitled to the same type of pay rise that workers got in other parts of the transport sector? How does he justify not giving them the same terms, especially considering that TDs will award themselves a €5,500 pay rise between April of this year and January of next year? Where is the equity in that? Where is the fairness? The transport workers did not cause this strike. Gross underfunding in infrastructure has brought us to this point.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I welcome the talks, but I caution that the bus workers in Bus Éireann who went into talks settled with a big stick over their heads. They understood that if they did not accept the settlement the Minister would have made the company insolvent. The Minister should not allow that happen again, because the workers in Bus Éireann are suffering under the threat of insolvency. Their working lives have been ruined by the sort of rotas they are expected to work. They are now working in a very difficult, demoralised workplace. The company is riding roughshod over them. The Minister should not let that happen in this instance, and should not use the threat of insolvency against Irish Rail workers. Passenger numbers and revenue are at an all time high in Irish Rail. This is due to the productivity of and the cuts endured by the workers. The Taoiseach is talking through his hat when he says that there is a choice either to improve the service or pay the workers. If the workers are not paid the service will disimprove, as has been seen in the case of the health service.

The CEO, who is earning an all-time high, thinks he can push all of the responsibility for the company's woes onto the workers. If we were to subvent Irish Rail even at the European average we would be doing very well indeed. It would keep this company alive and improve rail travel. That would help reduce our carbon emissions. Freight carried on railway increases the likelihood of reducing emissions by 80%, compared to trucks on roads.

I ask the Minister not to choose the easy way out. He should stay here and look after the industrial issues in transport rather than trying to save the world. The easy choice is to try and save the world. It is harder to stay here and try and sort out public transport.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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This is an important issue, but the Deputy took an extra minute.

Shane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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It is an important issue and I do not want to trivialise it in any way. To answer Deputy Munster's criticism concerning the stakeholders' forum, I would say that nobody wants to hold the stakeholders' forum more than I do. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating. I answered this question, but it was asked again and so I have to repeat the answer. The stakeholders' forum will take place.

Imelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It was announced six months ago.

Shane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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If the Deputy wants to take up my time with interruptions she is welcome to do so. I have only one minute and 24 seconds to answer the question, so please let me answer.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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No interruptions.

Shane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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I have not picked up the telephone because we wrote to all stakeholders and trade unions. They came in and we had a very good meeting. We are awaiting their submissions. I do not want to go ahead with a stakeholders' forum without their consent to the agenda because we do not want them to say that they did not agree to it. We want a consensus on the agenda. We will get it. We will hold the forum, but not while an industrial dispute is going on. There would only be one item on the agenda in that case. We want to be serious about this forum and for the trade union submissions to come in.

I am not unwilling to pay these people what they deserve, what they earn and what can be afforded. I would love to see them being paid more, but we must accept that this company is in a perilous situation despite the huge subventions it is getting. It cannot pay more than it can afford.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Munster, we cannot have bilaterals. Time is expired. I will give the Minister 30 seconds. There are to be no interruptions.

Shane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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I understand the point that Deputy Smith makes about the threat of insolvency. I am not making that threat at all. The fact is that Iarnród Éireann is on the brink of insolvency. In answer to the Deputy's question about subventions, about Europe and her comment that Ireland is far behind, l will point out some very salient facts. Between 2008 and 2016 the taxpayer has made over €5 billion available to the various CIÉ companies, across both PSO and capital investment programmes. Of this, Iarnród Éireann received over €3.7 billion or almost 75% of the total Exchequer funding in that period. As taxpayers we need to be certain of the value for money of that level of expenditure.