Dáil debates

Wednesday, 8 November 2017

1:10 pm

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

1. To ask the Taoiseach if, during the recent European Council meeting, the opportunity arose to discuss the recent independence referendum in Catalonia; and if specific measures are being considered by the Council to ensure a process of dialogue and mediation is in place between the Catalan and Spanish Governments. [44869/17]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

2. To ask the Taoiseach the issues he plans to raise at the upcoming European Council meeting. [44042/17]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

3. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his engagements with Donald Tusk on the leader's agenda. [44895/17]

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

4. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meetings at the European Council. [45033/17]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

5. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his attendance at the EU Council meeting of 19 to 20 October 2017. [44549/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

6. To ask the Taoiseach if he held bilaterals at the EU Council meeting in October 2017; the persons or bodies that attended; and the issues that were discussed. [45041/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

7. To ask the Taoiseach if the recent murder of a journalist in Malta was discussed at the October 2017 EU Council. [45042/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

8. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the EU Council meeting in October 2017. [44682/17]

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

9. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his attendance at the European Council on 19 and 20 October 2017. [44690/17]

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

10. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the President of the European Council on 19 October 2017. [44692/17]

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 10, inclusive, together.

I attended my second meeting of the European Council in Brussels on 19 and 20 October. The agenda included migration; Digital Europe; security and defence; and external relations. The future of Europe was also discussed over breakfast on Friday, followed by a meeting of the European Council in Article 50 format - without the UK - to discuss progress in the Brexit negotiations.

In advance of the meeting, I was invited, along with the Dutch Prime Minister, to join the leaders of the Nordic and Baltic countries - Sweden, Denmark, Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania - who meet regularly ahead of European Councils. Although Ireland is not part of a formal group in the EU, as a small northern European nation with an open trading economy, we have similar positions on many issues, particularly economic matters. I was very pleased, therefore, to attend this meeting with like-minded partners and to have the opportunity to share our views, including on the future of Europe debate.

The meeting of the European Council, which was attended by the leaders of all 28 EU member states, as well as President Tusk and President Juncker, opened with an exchange with the President of the European Parliament. The shocking murder of the well-known journalist in Malta was raised by several leaders and Prime Minister Muscat thanked EU partners for their messages of condolence and noted that an investigation is under way. On migration, the Commission confirmed there has been a decrease in the number of migrants travelling to Europe and, crucially, a welcome drop in the number of lives lost at sea. I drew attention to the distressing human rights reports from Médecins Sans Frontières in regard to the reception facilities in Libya. I also raised the question of support for Africa more generally, and said that Ireland will double its commitment to the EU Trust Fund for Africa over the next few years, taking it from €3 million to €6 million. This is, of course, just one small element of our overall development aid contribution to Africa. The House may be aware that the Minister, Deputy Coveney, is currently visiting Africa.

Digital Europe was one of the most important items from an Irish perspective, and I am pleased that the language we agreed for the conclusions reflects our ambitious approach and the input we provided, along with a number of like-minded countries. On the question of the taxation of digital companies, I emphasised that this must be considered at a global level, given the nature of the digital economy. The OECD is the best forum for this and I insisted on including a reference to the OECD work in the conclusions. The Commission has also been invited to present proposals early next year but these will require further discussion and, as a taxation issue, any decisions will be subject to unanimity.

On security and defence, it was confirmed that discussions around permanent structured co-operation, or PESCO, as it is known, are ongoing, with some aspects still to be settled. The ambition is to be ready to launch it in December. Ireland will, of course, not do anything that compromises our long-standing policy of military neutrality or that undermines the constitutional guarantees which are reflected in the protocols to the Lisbon treaty. EU leaders agreed to return to security and defence issues at our meeting in December.

External relations were also discussed on Thursday evening, including in regard to Turkey and Iran. Prime Minister May also spoke about developments in the UK in regard to Brexit. The situation in Catalonia was not discussed.

On Friday morning, President Tusk chaired a useful exchange on the future of Europe, based on his Leader’s Agenda. There was support for his proposed approach, which envisages further additional meetings at the level of Heads of State or Government. This issue is very important for Ireland as we want to ensure the Union continues to work for our citizens. In this context, under the leadership of the Minister of State, Deputy Helen McEntee, we will shortly launch a citizens’ engagement programme to allow for broad debate on the future of Europe.

We then met in Article 50 format to discuss the Brexit negotiations. Michel Barnier confirmed that, in his view, there has not been sufficient progress to enable us to move to phase two of negotiations on future relationship issues. However, in light of the progress that has been achieved, we agreed to start considering within the EU 27 what might go into additional guidelines regarding the framework for the future relationship and possible transitional arrangements, ahead of moving to a discussion of phase two as soon as the time is appropriate.

Ireland’s overall priorities are clear: to protect the peace process; to avoid any new barriers to trade or the movement of people on our island; the maintenance of the common travel area and all the associated rights that come with it; an effective transitional arrangement leading to the closest possible relationship between the UK and the EU; and to work for the future of the European Union, with Ireland at its heart. As I noted, Prime Minister May made some constructive comments over dinner on Thursday, including a rejection of any physical infrastructure on the Border between Ireland and Northern Ireland. However, further clarity is needed and I would urge the UK to provide more detail on how its stated commitments on EU citizens’ rights, the UK financial settlement and Ireland-specific issues will be given meaningful effect so that sufficient progress can be made and, ultimately, an agreement can be reached.

The agenda for the next formal meeting of the European Council is not yet available. The meeting is scheduled to take place in Brussels on 14 and 15 December.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Nine members of the Catalan Government have been arrested by the Spanish state and there are worrying reports with regard to the treatment by Spanish police of these members. Eight are currently imprisoned on sedition and rebellion charges, which carry significant terms of imprisonment. The Catalan President and four others are in Brussels, from where the Spanish state is seeking their extradition on the same charges. The entire Government, democratically elected by the citizens, has either been imprisoned or forced into exile by the Spanish Government. That is an absolutely mind-bending, shocking fact in the European Union of today.

To date, has the Taoiseach, the Irish Government or the EU clearly condemned what has happened? The Taoiseach said it was not discussed at the European Council meeting. Did he not raise it or seek to raise it at that meeting? What we are seeing is the wholesale corrosion of democracy in a partner country, a country that is an equal member partner of the EU. My understanding is that the response from the State and the EU has been silence. That silence, I believe, is a blot on the record of Irish democracy. I ask the Taoiseach why he did not raise it. Will he condemn what is happening in Spain?

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I would also say we need to speak out about what is going on in Spain. It is an affront to any notion of democracy that people, whatever one may think of them, who simply organised a vote for people to cast ballots on an issue that concerned them and their right to self-determination, a right that is accepted and enshrined in international law, could now be imprisoned and face very heavy sentences on charges of so-called sedition and rebellion. It is extraordinary. Simply saying that we accept the constitutional set-up of the Spanish state is not good enough in the face of that. On that basis, the people of Catalonia simply do not have a right to self-determination because the rest of Spain is not going to vote for the right of the people of Catalonia to self-determine - that is just not going to happen. It makes a joke, frankly, of self-determination if anyone expects that to happen.

In the Taoiseach's discussions on Digital Europe, to what extent is he now concerned that Europe and the European Commissioner are looking into a possible second instance of Irish state aid to Apple in terms of the intangible allowances which led to a massive write-off of tax liability during the period 2014-2015, where allowances jumped, benefiting a very small number of companies? In one year, allowances jumped from €33 billion to €66 million, and it was Apple and a few other companies which benefited.

This extraordinary jump followed the then Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, meeting the CEO of Apple at the beginning of that year. Following that, these changes were made by Deputy Noonan, conferring enormous benefits on Apple. If that does not stink of collusion in state aid to benefit certain companies, I do not know what does.

1:20 pm

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Deputy, but his time is up.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As a House, we need to express our concerns about the worsening situation in Catalonia. I met the Spanish ambassador yesterday and, on behalf of my party, expressed concerns. While we respect the constitutional position of Spain, given that it is a matter for Spain to determine its own constitutional structure, as it would be for ourselves, the physical suppression of an act of democracy was unacceptable. It worsens a situation considerably when people are imprisoned or prosecuted for political reasons. The ambassador explained that the judiciary acts independently, but we should express a view on this matter.

My question directly relates to the Taoiseach's conversation with President Tusk and the leaders' agenda. The Taoiseach mentioned the permanent structured co-operation on defence, PESCO. According to the leaders' agenda, the Council will launch PESCO on 14 and 15 December, which is not far away. President Macron of France has proposed an EU army and a shared defence budget. The Taoiseach is reported to have said that, while Ireland would be keen to take part in PESCO, we had not yet made a formal expression of interest because we needed to wait until its full remit had been clarified.

We cannot drift into this. We need a clear expression from the Taoiseach about what he sees Ireland doing in terms of defence co-operation. What specific role would he be agreeable to and will the House have some opportunity to debate these matters before any formal position is tabled by the Government on our behalf?

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If all ten of us ask questions on every subject, it may be difficult for the Taoiseach to answer. I do not know whether one can break them up.

My question is similar to the Minister's - I mean, Deputy Howlin's - on defence co-operation. I am interested in the possible development of us joining a Nordic-Baltic group on the fringes of the Council. Did the approach to defence co-operation arise in that group? I ask this question specifically because, as Deputy Howlin stated, the Council meeting was held just after the meeting with the French President. While the Taoiseach's comments after that meeting did not refer to defence as being one of the issues for discussion, the French President - I only have the French version with me - stated: "sur les politiques de défense, il y aura des discussions en politique interne en Irlande, mais la France continue à promouvoir [my French is not very good] cet agenda de convergence et de coopération renforcée". My French is only leaving certificate French like the Taoiseach's, but if mine is up to it, the French President was pushing the issue of defence co-operation and internal Irish political discussions around that were centre stage. How will the question of defence co-operation play out in that regard? Are we working with other countries on a common response? When I asked Mr. Brian Hayes, MEP, a similar question two weeks ago, he was in favour of further defence co-operation. If I am interpreting him correctly, he views it as something that we should be promoting. Where will Ireland have that discussion on our internal political view of that approach? As Deputy Howlin mentioned, this issue is imminent. It was not referred to in any of the Government publications afterwards, but it was by the French President following the meeting.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We can all agree that the Catalonian situation has escalated because of a failure of both sides to engage meaningfully. It seems the population of Catalonia is split - some would say evenly split - and it helps no one when rhetoric from other states is imported to the situation. There is no legitimate mandate for either the status quo or the vote for independence of the 38% to be taken as the final word. Any comparison with our peace process is overblown, given that there has been no illegitimate paramilitary involvement and all sides have been committed to democracy, even if they disagree about what the law allows. Hopefully, December's election will calm the situation and allow for a return to proper engagement. However, I agree that there is no positive purpose served by prosecutions, arrests and imprisonment of democratically elected politicians. All of that will only serve to make a bad situation worse.

An honest broker is needed. The EU should consider playing this role. The Taoiseach stated that the matter was not discussed at the Council meeting. Was that of the full 28? Should I take it that no one raised the matter at all during the meeting? Did the Taoiseach make any contribution on the matter? I presume that, if it did not arise, he did not. It is almost as if the whole 28 took a vow of silence - before going into the room, whatever we do, do not mention-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The war.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----Catalonia. Do not even raise it.

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is a bit like Cork.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Sorry?

Photo of John Paul PhelanJohn Paul Phelan (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The other context to this debate.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The county or the city?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, I am discussing the European Council meeting. It is an interesting insight that, although there are 28 countries in the EU and one of them - Spain - is riven by a severe constitutional crisis, no one mentioned Catalonia. I will leave that point with the Taoiseach.

Ireland should stand with other countries in condemning the brutal murder of the investigative journalist, Ms Daphne Galizia, in Malta. The Taoiseach mentioned that this was briefly discussed, but we should all remember the sense of national shock in Ireland when Ms Veronica Guerin was murdered 21 years ago. Such an attack on a journalist strikes at the heart of democracy in our society. This particular murder is chilling. Ms Galizia's family members have been clear, in that they believe European assistance is required if those behind the murder are to be found. Did the Taoiseach make a contribution on this aspect of the debate at the Council meeting? Did the issue of Europe giving extra capacity to support an independent investigation arise? That journalist was getting at some clear truths and many people were worried about her work. It is chilling that she was murdered in such a manner.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If I heard the Taoiseach correctly, he opened by discussing his meeting with Prime Minister Mark Rutte and the invitation to a Nordic group meeting, which is to be welcomed. Did the development of PESCO emerge as a concern for the group, of which a number are, like us, significant neutrals? What issues were of concern? We know that immigration and the portability of social welfare rights are considerable issues in the politics of many Nordic countries. The Taoiseach might enlighten the House as to what was included in the headings of his discussions with the group.

As to Catalonia, and to use the French phrase, there are many conversations en marge demeetings where people talk informally. Given that most of Europe was watching the events in Catalonia on phones, televisions and other devices, it is distinctly odd that there would not have been informal conversations at a minimum on the margins of the meeting. It would be reassuring if the Taoiseach told us that there had been informal conversations because, if there had been none, it implies a wish by some that this situation would go away or indifference to what is an historic problem.

As Deputy Howlin said, we have a lot of experience in Ireland. The way to resolve conflict is through discussion, rather than court proceedings and imprisonment which, unfortunately, seems to be the road towards which the Spanish system is drifting. That is not in the interests of the people of Catalonia or Spain.

The current position in respect of Brexit is more important, in terms of the Taoiseach's attendance at this meeting. A lot of work has been done and the island of Ireland, Republic of Ireland and Border issues were acknowledged by a variety of senior EU figures. Can the Taoiseach give us an indication of where the strategy is leading in terms of the next meeting? Has he come under pressure to acknowledge the progress made on the three significant issues outlined by Mr. Barnier?

Does that mean we are expected to nod things through, in some way, and advance to the next stage of discussions? Given the confusion which seems to exist, even today in terms of who speaks for the British Government, could the Taoiseach tell us what was discussed and what seems to be the likely outcome in respect of Ireland at the next session of the heads of government meeting?

1:30 pm

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach has a very broad area to respond to.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will start with the first question, which related to Catalonia. We are all concerned about the political crisis in Estonia.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In Spain.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

And in Spain. At the dinner on the first night, Prime Minister Rajoy was invited to update us on Catalonia but declined to do so. However, I took the opportunity to speak to the Spanish informally on the margins of the meeting. I emphasised our full support for the territorial integrity of Spain and respect for its constitution. I acknowledged, as Deputy Martin has, that it does not appear that there is a clear majority in Catalonia in favour of leaving Spain, and certainly not leaving the European Union. Catalonia would leave the European Union if it left Spain.

I expressed our concerns and those of the Irish people about the police violence which occurred in Catalonia and which we saw on our television screens. During the discussion, I spoke about our history and how the use of police violence and attempts to suppress free speech and free association can radicalise people who are not radical and turn people who are not nationalists into nationalists. I was pleased that the point I made was understood by the Spanish officials, namely that perhaps some of the actions taken by the national government in Catalonia could have been counter-productive for Spanish unity.

There are two sides to the story. I encourage anyone who has not yet done so to speak to his or her counterpart in Spain or to the Spanish ambassador. We already know the extent to which fake news and propaganda has claimed all sorts of things which have been disproved. I urge people to be cautious and, at the very least, listen to both sides of the story before coming to a conclusion.

I also suggested dialogue was crucial to resolving the political differences which exist and that it has to be for Spain and its citizens to determine their preferred constitutional and political arrangements through their democratic institutions. Ireland respects the constitutional and territorial integrity of Spain and, therefore, we do not recognise Catalonia's unilateral declaration of independence. Any decision on a question as important as that requires legitimacy in the broadest possible political terms and in terms of the legal framework. Elections have now been called for the 21 December, in which all of the parties can participate, and will give Catalans a voice.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Except the imprisoned.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The resolution of the current crisis needs to be within the constitutional framework and Spain's democratic institutions. It is for all Catalans and Spaniards to shape their own constitutional and political arrangements through their democratic institutions and laws. As we are all aware, measures have now been taken to limit regional autonomy. I hope that after the elections regional autonomy can be fully restored. I am aware that judicial proceedings are underway and matters are before the courts, therefore it would not be appropriate for me to comment on them.

Apple was not discussed at the European Council meeting. The tax matters of any person or company are confidential. I do not know the details and am not at liberty to discuss them in the House.

PESCO was not discussed at the Nordic-Baltic meeting. By their nature, the meetings are generally short and last less than an hour. They tend to focus on the two or three key topics at the Council meeting, which were digital taxation, the future of Europe and Brexit. It gave me an opportunity to explain once again to the prime ministers of the Nordic and Baltic countries the unique concerns and issues I have. I was assured that they guaranteed their support into the future.

The engagement with the Nordic and Baltic group is continuing. This week, the Minister for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Paschal Donohoe, attended the dinner of Nordic and Baltic finance ministers in Brussels.

Ireland will not join a European army, nor will we contribute to a common European defence budget. However, we want to be part of a common security and defence policy because we believe it is in our interests as a nation and in the interests of Europe. Security threats exist today which are not the traditional ones present in the 1940s when NATO was established and we enunciated our policy of neutrality. They include cyber terrorism, cyber attacks, traditional terrorism and drug and human trafficking. We want to be involved in European actions against all of these. We also want to share our experience and knowledge, as we do already, through the European Defence Agency, of which we have been a member since 1992.

PECSO will be an opt-in or opt-out system. It will be up to us as to whether we want to participate. In the first instance, it will require a decision by the Government and in the second it will require a decision by the Dáil. As there is no clear proposal yet, it is not possible to put anything to the Cabinet or Dáil. Once we know what we can or cannot sign up to there will be a discussion at Cabinet and a debate in the Dáil.

Prime Minister Muscat was advised to update us on the assassination in Malta. He took the opportunity to do so and condemned it unreservedly. However, he did not request any assistance from other EU countries at this stage.

Brexit is, of course, a rapidly changing situation. I am constantly asked what is going to happen, but I do not know. I do not think anyone does. Deputy Burton referenced the ongoing confusion in London. However, when we were at this point in September or October, I indicated I did not think it was likely we could say that sufficient progress had been made. I am now of the view that it is likely we will be able to say that sufficient progress has been made at the December meeting, allowing us to move on to discussions on transition and the future arrangements.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What has changed?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is my prediction at this stage. This will, of course, all depend on what happens over the next number of weeks and what specific assurances and written guarantees we can get from the United Kingdom.

Photo of Seán HaugheySeán Haughey (Dublin Bay North, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I refer to the future of Europe, which the Taoiseach discussed at the Council meeting. I welcome the fact a civic engagement process is about to be launched next week in that regard. Could the Taoiseach give us some information about that? How will it operate? What timescale is involved? What is the proposed outcome? What particular format will it take?

It is very important that we have real engagement with the citizens of this country in respect of the future of Europe. We have had experiences of referendums on the Lisbon treaty, the Nice treaty and so on, where there was not sufficient debate, discussion or buy-in from the electorate in respect of the proposals. It is important that the process is very real and engages the citizens of this country.

If there are new proposals for further integration or a treaty change, they would need to be explained to the Irish people. They need to be involved in the discussion and debate before any new proposals are brought forward. Perhaps the Taoiseach could give us some more detail on the process envisaged.

1:40 pm

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not wish to eat too badly into the time remaining for other questions, but I will allow brief supplementary questions.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach has broken significant new ground in indicating it is now his belief that the three phase one matters will be satisfactorily addressed in advance of the December Council. Will the Taoiseach expand on what has changed since the previous meeting of the Council to change his view and what specifically he expects to be tabled at the December Council?

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Taoiseach for that very important information. It is of such significance that we must get a paper from the Government setting out the context in which it has reached this view. We need to know exactly what we are getting as a country for accepting that, in effect, the Border matter is settled, just to mention one really significant element. This is a short Question Time and we do not have the time to address it in detail here. In fairness to everybody in the Dáil, we need to be fully briefed on the content of the Taoiseach's expectations of what Ireland is getting so as to, in effect, forgo what is technically or potentially a veto if we are not sufficiently satisfied on the progress.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The meetings we have had with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Coveney, have been very useful, but with what we have heard, it might be useful for the Taoiseach to resurrect a practice of his predecessor, Deputy Enda Kenny. He met party leaders to allow briefings on what is happening in Brexit talks. I agree that we need real clarity as to whether we are certain there is absolute European support that there will be no physical border infrastructure introduced anywhere on this island. It is one of the questions on which we need real clarity. One of the ways we could achieve this is through a meeting of leaders. That has not taken place since the new Taoiseach took office.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

With the various stages of these negotiations, the real meat is in the ultimate deal between the European Union and the United Kingdom.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Our leverage will be lessened if we move on.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not buy that entirely, to be frank. We must be very clear in terms of that relationship, particularly in light of the Taoiseach's comments. I know the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, Mr. Brokenshire, is not the final authority on Brexit within the British Government but his comments when visiting Brussels on Monday were quite negative. He stated the British Government does not support and will not seek any form of special status for Northern Ireland. He made some vague comments about maintaining convergence in animal health regulations, but the core of his comments were extremely negative. The Taoiseach indicated recently that he will seek special status when it is clear east-west trade will not involve membership of the Single Market by the UK. Has the Taoiseach communicated his disagreement with the Secretary of State's comments to the British Prime Minister, Ms Theresa May? What is his take on those comments?

The questions that have been asked about the certainties we have been given at this stage are valid, of course. Last week we were told the criteria were not there to progress, but this week it is different. In the same comment where the Taoiseach indicated there is utter confusion and nobody has any idea what will happen, the Taoiseach stated that despite this, he thought there could be progress.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We would just be going with the momentum.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It depends what momentum we are talking about, given the position of the British Government and what is happening there. There is really a complete absence of clarity in the whole idea of where we stand with the customs union and Single Market. The language does not tally with the reality of being outside both.

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach did not answer the substance of the question on Catalonia, which concerned the individuals who are being imprisoned. People are in exile in Brussels. The Taoiseach mentioned the chance for Catalans to participate in the upcoming election, but the government of Catalonia will be in jail and will not be able to participate democratically in those elections. I understand the Taoiseach is laden down with diplomatic concerns and he has a responsibility in his articulation to take those into consideration. There must also be a moral responsibility when faced with such an affront to democracy in a partnership member state. Not being able to comment on the jailing of democratically elected representatives for being democratic is wrong. It is as simple as that, no more, no less.

With regard to special status and Brexit, this is about the economic integrity of the island of Ireland. It seems the European Union is far more ambitious than this Government in that space. Is it not necessary to make special status a red-line matter for this Government in its negotiations?

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am amazed at the minimalist approach to the question of what is happening in Catalonia. This is a crisis that potentially not only strips Spain of any kind of democratic legitimacy, but in the failure of the European Union to speak about it, as Deputy Martin pointed out, it potentially strips Europe very significantly of its legitimacy, or what is left of its legitimacy, as a champion of democracy and human rights. Europe has signed up to the principle of self-determination. I stress that in international law, self-determination is not something that can be denied by a bigger state. The whole point of self-determination is that it can be exercised by minority groups if they tick certain boxes. Catalonia ticks those boxes.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Crimea.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes. One must at least engage with the issue and to say nothing about it is extraordinary.

There has also been a minimalist response on digital Europe. The Taoiseach stated this was discussed, but what was the content of the discussion? Intellectual property and intangible assets are the main mechanism through which the most wealthy corporations in the world are dodging tax. It would amaze me if that was not discussed in the context of digital Europe as it will most certainly be discussed in Europe over the next few weeks and prior to the next European Council. At least at a rhetorical level, Europe is expressing deep concern about our implication in all of this. Whatever may be said about our role, Apple is involved in massive tax avoidance. The Government might say it is nothing to do with us and we are transparent etc., but nobody else thinks that. With the Paradise Papers we have the latest piece of evidence and there is the possibility of an investigation about state aid following the budgetary changes made by the former Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, in 2014.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As I stated earlier to Deputies Howlin and Burton, I cannot predict the future and I do not know what will happen in the next couple of weeks or months. It is my sense that we are moving in the right direction and I am more optimistic than I was in the weeks before the October summit. However, that may change. I have been asked to give clarity but I cannot as it is not clear. It should be evident to anybody following this Brexit debate that there is a lack of clarity. I cannot give clarity I do not have nor can I give certainty when I am not certain myself. This is a dynamic and changing position, with political developments across Europe and in London as well.

A leaders' meeting would be a good idea at an appropriate time, but we probably need a little more clarity, and certainty before that would be valuable. I point out that it is not intended that everything in phase one must be agreed before we move to phase two but rather that sufficient progress must be made on the phase one matters of the financial settlement, citizens' rights and issues specific to Ireland. That would allow us to move to phase two, where we can speak of transition arrangements and the new relationship. It will not be possible to resolve the Border question fully until we start to speak about the future relationship that the UK will have with the European Union. There will come a point when it will be in our interest to start talking about that.

Civic engagement on Europe will be led by the Minister of State, Deputy McEntee.

2 o’clock

It will be launched in the next two to three weeks. I am not sure of the exact format yet - Deputy McEntee is very much taking the lead on it - but I imagine that it will involve a number of public forums, sectoral forums and engagement with young people and universities. It is based very much around the leaders' agenda, the reforms set out in Bratislava and in the speeches of President Junker and President Tusk.

Talking about special status is not helpful. It is not in our national interest to talk about special status, or to be demanding it. Sinn Féin MEPs, allied with one of the far left nationalist groups in the European Parliament, irresponsibly and unhelpfully put down a motion calling for special status for Northern Ireland. That was rejected by a massive vote in the European Parliament, precisely because the use of the term "special status" is anathema to many European countries because regions within European countries do not have special status within the European Union. The fact that was done was contrary to our national interests, and I regret that Sinn Féin did that.

1:50 pm

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Spanish have a veto over Gibraltar. We have none.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It was not in the interest of Ireland, and certainly not in the interest of citizens in Northern Ireland. The term "special status" is very much rejected by unionists in Northern Ireland, and it is going to be very hard to achieve anything for Northern Ireland in these talks if the democratically elected representatives in that country do not want it and do not ask for it. The use of the term special status is unhelpful, counter-productive and does not serve our national interest and I ask people to use different language. Unfortunately, in these things language is very important, as it is in Northern Ireland where we must speak about the First Minister and deputy First Minister being co-equal and we have to use a small "d" instead of a capital "D" in the title. These things are also important. People in Sinn Féin should understand the importance of language. They understand it in Northern Ireland and they should also understand it in the European context. Everyone can talk about unique solutions and that we can engage on-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

What is the difference between "unique" and "special"?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We can talk about special arrangements for Ireland and Northern Ireland, but once we mention "special status" the conversation is shut down. The difference is the language. What is the difference between a deputy First Minister having a small "d" and a capital "D"? That is the kind of thing that Sinn Féin demands in Northern Ireland-----

Photo of Peadar TóibínPeadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will seek "unique" status.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----because that defines the co-equal. The language is very important.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, the substance is more important.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In terms of Digital Europe many things were discussed. The main digital issues are completing the digital single market, moving public services online, which is a very important issue across Europe, and upskilling citizens so that people can avail of the digital revolution which is underway. Digital tax was discussed. There is a specific reference to the Council's conclusions on the taxation of digital companies, first of all acknowledging that this is an international issue which the OECD is best placed to deal with, but also inviting the European Commission to bring forward its own proposals in the new year, when it will be discussed further.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We have covered Questions Nos. 1 to 10, inclusive. It has taken 42 and a half minutes. We have two questions remaining but there are only two minutes left. Perhaps the Taoiseach could answer without the questions being asked.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There should be another supplementary question on this issue. There is no point in asking a new question.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Would Deputies like the Taoiseach to answer the questions on the record without supplementaries or-----

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, leave it until-----

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----leave it and put the questions in next week?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The questions should be put in for next week.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Okay. I thank the Deputies.