Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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36. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence his plans on aligning the Defence Forces industrial relations with that of the initial findings of the Garda Síochána working group which was recently approved by Cabinet; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [44021/17]

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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This question relates to the Minister of State's position on the findings of the senior Garda management report on industrial relations and whether it has implications in regard to the Defence Forces. If the proposals of Garda senior management were adopted by the Defence Forces, does he believe it would be contrary to the European court decision regarding the right to representation?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The conciliation and arbitration scheme for members of the Permanent Defence Force, PDF, provides a formal mechanism for the PDF representative associations, RACO and PDFORRA, to engage with the official side. Having regard to commitments made under pay agreements, members of the Permanent Defence Force can make representations in relation to their pay and conditions of service through their representative bodies. Where agreement is not reached it is open to both official and representative sides to refer the matter to an adjudicator or an arbitration board to settle the matter. Permanent Defence Force personnel have achieved significant benefits down the years through this process.

When appointed as Minister of State with responsibility for defence, the Permanent Defence Force representative associations brought to my attention, the fact that the current conciliation a arbitration scheme requires some refining so that it can remain fit for purpose for the entire defence organisation.

The conciliation and arbitration scheme for members of the Permanent Defence Force has been in existence since the early 1990s and I agree that it is timely to review the scheme.

In this regard, I announced my intention previously to review the conciliation and arbitration scheme for members of the permanent Defence Force. The review will start by the end of 2017 and will be guided by an independent chairperson. Officials in the Department of Defence are finalising the terms of reference for that review and I hope to be in a position to circulate this document to the representative associations shortly.

The report of the working group on industrial relations structures for An Garda Síochána will be considered in the course of the review of the arrangements for the Permanent Defence Force

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I have raised the issue before and I will not labour it but what is the fear of the Defence Forces organisations having full representational rights and being given the full ability to discuss pay and conditions in talks with their employer, even if it without the right to strike? Both the representative organisations which I met during the recent months are not looking for full trade union status or the right to strike. They seek the ability to fully represent their members and, when there are pay talks, to fully discuss the pay and conditions under which their members survive. They believe that recent European court decisions have confirmed that they should have this right and they will ensure that this decision will soon be reflected in this State. Rather than continuing to prevent their representation, will the Minister of State examine that court decision and implement it in the cases of RACO and PDFORRA?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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PDFORRA and RACO both participated in the recent negotiations on the extension of the Lansdowne Road agreement which were facilitated by the Workplace Relations Commission. Both RACO and PDFORRA were invited to negotiations which were held under the auspices of the Workplace Relations Commission and were given the full esteem accorded to the non-ICTU associations. The Defence Force representative associations attended and participated at all plenary sessions which were attended by the public sector trade unions, representative associations and management. Senior officials from my Department and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform and the Defence Forces association had their own meetings which were chaired by officials from the WRC. The issues raised by the Defence Forces representative associations were considered in tandem with those raised by other public sector representative associations.

The Deputy also asked why they are not members. That is something that PDFORRA, in particular, has requested on a number of occasions, specifically in 2002, 2009, 2012 and 2014.

Personnel are the Defence Forces' critical resource. If we are to consider a request for associate membership of ICTU, we must examine the potential conflicts and divided loyalties that could arise where the Government decided to deploy Defence Forces in a situation of industrial unrest.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State said that they were accorded the same rights of participation as other trade unions, but that was not the case. Does the Minister of State agree that many of the issues they raised were ignored while side deals were being made with other unions at those pay talks? RACO and PDFORRA continue to seek full rights and access at all levels that a trade union organisation would have in any future pay talks, which includes side talks and side deals on terms and conditions.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Following the interaction of members of both associations at the pay talks, I will meet both associations tomorrow. If we do not discuss the matter tomorrow, I will ask for their thoughts and for feedback on the interaction during their first time at pay talks.

On what is happening internally, the conciliation and arbitration process works, although it requires review. That is why I have initiated what I hope will be a very comprehensive review, chaired by an independent chairperson who will be given terms of reference and the teeth to establish how exactly the current conciliation and arbitration process, which has been in place for many years, can be improved. I have listened carefully to all representative associations over the past 12 to 16 months and following that, I announced the review at the PDFORRA conference in Cavan two weeks ago. PDFORRA was happy that I listened to its concerns over the past 12 to 16 months. It is an appropriate time to review the process and see how we might best improve it.