Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the Roman Catholic Church leaders on 31 August 2017. [39675/17]

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with representatives of the Catholic Church as part of the church-State structured dialogue process. [40410/17]

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his recent meeting with the Catholic hierarchy. [40413/17]

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his meeting with the hierarchy of the Catholic Church in Ireland on 31 August 2017. [40538/17]

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I propose to takes Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together.

On 31 August, I held a formal meeting under the structured dialogue process with representatives of the Catholic Church, led by Archbishop Eamon Martin. I was accompanied at the meeting by the Tánaiste and Minister for Business, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Fitzgerald; the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Bruton; the Minister for Health, Deputy Harris; the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross; and the Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Regina Doherty.

A wide-ranging discussion took place on a range of important national and international issues including the World Meeting of Families in August 2018 and the possibility of a wider visit to Ireland by the Pope, education issues, the eighth amendment of the Constitution, Northern Ireland, overseas development aid, and social and justice issues. I was very pleased with the engagement that took place and found the exchange of views to be very valuable. Churches and faith communities play an important role in Irish life and it is very beneficial that Government should engage with them in a structured way.

This was the first in a series of meetings that I will be holding with dialogue partners.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Solidarity)
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Did the Taoiseach take the opportunity to raise with the representatives of the Catholic Church the problem of discrimination against transgender and non-binary students in State-funded schools run by the Catholic Church and the lack of mandatory LGBTQ-positive education? This is obviously an issue for all schools, but it is particularly the case for the Catholic Church given its transphobic teachings. For example, last year Pope Francis complained that, "Today in schools they are teaching this to children - to children - that everyone can choose their gender." He also claimed that increased visibility of trans people is due to "ideological colonising", which he described as terrible.

The Gender Recognition Act, passed in July 2015 formally recognises trans people in their preferred gender. That includes provision for 16- and 17-year olds to be legally recognised. According to the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, trans people are protected under the Equal Status Act, which protects students or prospective students from discrimination by educational establishments. Unfortunately, that is not currently taking place.

A recent survey by TENI found that only 18% of students felt their gender was respected in terms of the use of gender-segregated facilities such as bathrooms and locker rooms. Only 16% were able to wear uniforms specific to their gender identity. Only 27% reported their name and pronouns were respected by their school or college.

Did the Taoiseach ask the Catholic bishops to outline the steps being taken to ensure the preferred gender of trans students is respected in Catholic schools?

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Before the Taoiseach replies, I propose to take all the questions and then allow the Taoiseach to answer. Is that okay? I call Deputy McDonald representing Deputy Adams.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am not sure that lends itself to us actually getting answers.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I remind the Deputy that there are 12 minutes left in the slot and at the moment five speakers are offering. I ask her to-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Paul Murphy has asked specific questions and I am sure he wants answers to those.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Okay, but I remind-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do not want the Taoiseach bunching everything together and for us not to get answers. This is a highly problematic slot anyway.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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On a point of order, I do not make the rules of the House.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I appreciate that, but-----

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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In fairness, the Taoiseach did not make those rules, but I will be-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I know he did not make the rules. I am saying we want answers to our questions.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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Will the Deputy allow me to finish my comment?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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There are 11.5 minutes left in this slot. When that time is up I have to move on.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Right.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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If we proceeded in the way the Deputy is suggesting some people might not get an opportunity to get answers to their questions.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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That is fine. Okay. I just think it is bad practice to mix everything because then no one gets answers. I have made that point.

I could ask the Taoiseach 100 different things. I believe such structured dialogue is very good. In any republic there must be clear separations of state and churches. It is not appropriate for any faith community to expect that the law of the land tallies with its theological view of the world. We must also respect people's right to practise their faith and that cuts across all denominations - Roman Catholic and others.

I ask the Taoiseach to enlighten us as to the discussion he had with the representatives of the Catholic hierarchy in respect of the eighth amendment. What did they say to him? What did he say to them? Were any requests made of the Taoiseach? Did they lobby him in any way in respect of the position the Government might reach? Did they suggest not having a referendum? In the event of a referendum did they promote a particular approach? What did the Taoiseach tell them? Did he tell them it is the Government's view to repeal the eighth amendment to protect women? What was said?

Did they give the Taoiseach a date for the Pope's visit? Does the Pope intend to go North?

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy for her co-operation.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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My questions are not dissimilar. Did the Taoiseach raise the question of the redress payments due from the church when he met representatives of the Catholic hierarchy? The latest figures available to us show that €85 million of €700 million, which was promised by the church to fund the redress board, has been paid. That is 13% of what was committed to. These figures come from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Did that come up in the discussion? What did the Taoiseach say to them? What was their response?

There is considerable concern about the convergence of a number of events - the World Meeting of Families which is to take place here in Ireland, the Pope's visit which will obviously be very high profile and the referendum on the eighth amendment. One does not need to be a rocket scientist to figure that there may be a connection between these three things and it might be wise to separate out the referendum on the eighth amendment from the other two. It might be only fair and just to separate these out in order that a clear, unambiguous and balanced debate can take place. I reiterate the question that was already asked. I ask the Taoiseach to outline the discussion on the timing of these visits and the referendum on this amendment?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Did the Taoiseach raise the divestment of schools and hospitals with leaders of the Catholic Church at his meeting in August? Church leaders have made public statements supporting this policy for schools in particular, but also apparently an agreement is in progress relating to the National Maternity Hospital moving to Elm Park. Divestment is very slow in practice.

Money was committed in respect of redress in the infamous deal with the then Minister, Dr. Michael Woods, and the then Taoiseach. Over the summer, it was reported that the Christian Brothers had sold a small number of acres at Clonkeen College in Deansgrange for upwards of €18 million. Where stands redress in terms of amounts still owing and amounts committed to be paid at this point in time?

I would like to hear the discussions that took place on the eighth amendment. Obviously the Catholic Church is a significant institution in Ireland. I have attended a number of these meetings, which serve a very good purpose.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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However, we are facing into a potentially very divisive referendum on the repeal of the eighth amendment, which I have supported for a long time, as has my party. We are owed a fairly detailed description of the discussion that took place between the Taoiseach and the church leaders.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Deputy.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I ask the Taoiseach to commit again to the desirability of the referendum being held prior to the visit of Pope Francis towards the end of August 2018.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I had asked about this meeting in July and the Taoiseach answered that national and international issues were discussed but did not elaborate on which specific ones were discussed. The media reported that one of the topics in the dialogue with the church hierarchy was the World Meeting of Families to be held in Ireland next August.

While it is organised by the Dublin diocese, it will involve events throughout the country and thousands of people in its organisation. Many thousands more will apparently visit Ireland during that particular week. Could the Taoiseach indicate whether the Government reaffirmed its commitment to assist the organisers to make the event as successful as possible? Could he also confirm whether that is the occasion when Pope Francis will visit Ireland and attend the event?

Separately, it was reported that the Taoiseach discussed the issue of referendums at the meeting. As was confirmed yet again this morning, the Government has developed a habit of briefing journalists about referenda it intends to hold and when it intends holding them. To avoid any doubt, will the Taoiseach confirm that he understands the Government cannot call any referendum as doing so is a power which rests in the hands of the Oireachtas. Every Deputy and every party holds exactly the same right as the Government to propose the holding of a referendum. This is nothing new. I recall the Taoiseach's predecessor saying that there would be a referendum day about two years ago, so every now and again the reference to a multiplicity of referendums gets aired. Could the Taoiseach indicate why he did not consult first with parties in the Oireachtas as to the optimal approach to the holding of referendums and also the prioritisation of the various referendums that are being proposed?

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I suggest, Acting Chairman, that we might give the Taoiseach a bit of leeway in terms of the amount of time he will have to respond because each of the issues are hugely complex and not insignificant. Could the Taoiseach report on the conversation he had with the Catholic Church in this instance in respect of the changes - announced four days ago - Education and Training Boards Ireland proposes to make regarding faith formation within the 12 community primary schools? I am interested to learn whether the issue was the subject of conversation with Archbishop Eamon Martin and the other attendees at the meeting in question.

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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With the agreement of the Members present who are involved in this debate, I will give a little leeway to the Taoiseach because we have almost run out of time. He might commence answering all of those questions.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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I will start from the top. The rights of transgender citizens did not come up as a specific issue. While it did not arise, it may of course be possible to discuss it at a future meeting or bilaterally at meetings that will occur between the Minister for Education and Skills and the Catholic Church.

The issue of patronage and divestment was discussed. The Government expressed the view that it would like to see more divestment occurring but that our principal interest involves taking into the account the views of parents and that the most important thing is that divestment should only occur where the parents and prospective parents of children attending those schools want it to occur.

In the context of the eighth amendment, the Catholic Church gave its view and its view is very clear - I respect its view, which is that the eighth amendment has saved lives, that this is a matter of human rights and that it will oppose any attempt to remove the provision from the Constitution. That is the church's stated view. As a Government, we said that we respect that this is its view and that we understand this to be the case. We also indicated that it is our intention to proceed on the basis of the Constitutional Convention's recommendation that there should be a referendum on the matter and that we will be guided by the outcome of the all-party committee as to what should be wording of the question.

On the Pope's visit, the date for the World Meeting of Families is 21 to 26 August 2018. We do not yet know the specific date or dates on which the Holy Father will be in the country and no decision has been made on whether he will travel to the North. However, I did express my wish that he would consider doing so. Unfortunately, when he visited Ireland, Pope John Paul II was not able to travel to the North and made his plea for peace from Dublin. I certainly would like to see that happen. We indicated to the church authorities that the State will do its best to facilitate any programme that he wants to engage in - in any part of Ireland - and that it will put at his disposal the necessary support from the security forces and other groups that might be able to assist in accommodating his visit.

Deputy Micheál Martin is absolutely correct; the holding of referendums is not a decision for Government, it is one for the Oireachtas. It is only the Oireachtas that can make a decision to hold a referendum. What the Government did today was put out a timeline to work towards. People know that some of these referendums are in the pipeline for years and the Government thought it appropriate to set out a timeline that we can work towards because it is not just a case of having a referendum. One has to work back from a referendum. First, there needs to be a wording, the legislation, which must go through the Dáil and Seanad, has to be brought forward and a referendum commission must be established. There is a minimum period during which a referendum commission can be established and there is also a need to provide a period of at least three or four weeks for a campaign. It takes time to have referendums. Assuming that the all-party committee is able to report by 20 December - I am confident it can do so - the earliest possible time at which a referendum could be held would be May or June 2018 as a result of the need to have legislation passed by the two Houses, to facilitate the establishment of the referendum commission and to hold a campaign. I did not quite understand what Deputies said but if they are suggesting a different date I would be curious to know what that is. Obviously, the referendum could not be held earlier than May or June 2018. If, therefore, people are suggesting a later date, I would certainly be interested to find out if that is the case and to understand why.

Redress was one of the topics discussed. The view expressed by the Government is that we would like to see the matter concluded. We would like to see a financial settlement that would involve the payment of many millions of euro to the taxpayer to help us cover the cost of compensation.

Deputy Micheál Martin asked about a referendum day. We decided not to do that. It had been proposed in the past to have six, seven or eight referendums on the one day but the Government has formed the opinion that having so many questions on the one day could cause confusion. We decided that the referendum relating to what is probably the most sensitive and controversial issue - namely, the eighth amendment - should be held on a stand-alone basis but that the others, which, perhaps, relate to matters that are a little less controversial, could be held in batches of two or three. The latter has been done previously.

In terms of international issues, it is important to point out that this was a dialogue with the Catholic Church, not the hierarchy, so other people were present as well. It was not just bishops. Among those present were representatives from Trócaire, an agency which, as Members know, does phenomenal work in terms of international development around the world and which receives substantial funding. Needless to say, part of the discussion was a request that we increase the budget for Catholic organisations such as Trócaire and that for overseas development aid in the years to come.

The issue of Education and Training Boards Ireland and community national schools did not arise specifically and the issue that arose in recent days was not on the agenda at the time.

I found the meeting to be very useful. It went on for approximately two hours. It was a very good engagement, with lots of areas of agreement and disagreement. I agree with Members that such a dialogue is appropriate. There will be another meeting but next on the list is a dialogue with the Church of Ireland and the other Protestant denominations. We are trying to schedule a time for that now.