Dáil debates

Wednesday, 5 July 2017

Rugby World Cup 2023 Bill 2017: Second Stage

 

6:55 pm

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This is certainly the most energising legislation I have introduced in this House.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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It is only the second Bill the Minister has introduced.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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I welcome the co-operation we have had from all sides of the House on this Bill. I would like to mention in particular Deputy Troy who has already interjected on this Bill and made a contribution, Deputy Munster and others on the joint Oireachtas committee who have shown an interest in it over time. I have been supportive of the principles behind the Bill. That does not mean I expect it to pass without controversy.

I appreciate and welcome any scrutiny of it, and I recognise the need for this.

As Deputies will know, this is an enabling Bill to allow the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to support the bid and the hosting of the Rugby World Cup in 2023. The Rugby World Cup is one of the largest global sporting events after the Olympics and the FIFA World Cup. It is held every four years, with the next tournament to be played in Japan in 2019. It has grown substantially since its inauguration in 1987, and it is expected to continue to grow in the future.

The hosting of a Rugby World Cup by Ireland has the potential to be very beneficial to Ireland in terms of visitor numbers and sporting and international profile, and for communities across the island. A successful bid for the Rugby World Cup would have the dual advantage of promoting sport and tourism. There would be very considerable tourism potential as the tournament would take place during Ireland's shoulder season for overseas tourism, between mid-September and late October. It is estimated that the tournament would draw approximately 450,000 high-spending visitors. There would be many other benefits to the country, not least the profile received through television coverage of the tournament across the world and the exposure that the country would get through the thousands of visiting media. In addition, hosting a Rugby World Cup on the island of Ireland would provide communities all over Ireland with the opportunity to host teams from places as diverse as Tonga, Georgia, Japan, New Zealand and Argentina.

The Governments in the North and South view hosting the Rugby World Cup as a unique opportunity for Ireland and have been supporting this project since 2013, when the initial feasibility study was received. This study was the subject of in-depth examination by the cross-Border Rugby World Cup Working Group during 2014. Its report was agreed by the Government, and in December 2014 it was agreed that the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport should support the preparation of an all-island bid by the IRFU, in co-operation with the Northern Ireland authorities. The bid also has the full co-operation of the GAA, which has put key stadiums, such as Croke Park, at the disposal of the bid.

An oversight board, chaired by former Tánaiste, Dick Spring, and comprising key sporting and business figures and Government representatives, has guided the compilation of the bid. This has been supported by interdepartmental groups in both jurisdictions, chaired respectively by the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service and the Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach. My Department led the co-ordination of the public sector input and managed relations with the IRFU and the Department of the Economy in Northern Ireland. The Government has regularly reviewed the project at Cabinet and approved the submission of the applicant and candidate phase bids.

Ireland has now completed two of the three phases to the bid to host the Rugby World Cup in 2023. The applicant phase was completed on 25 August 2016, with the submission of a bid questionnaire comprising detailed responses to over 90 questions. Ireland then progressed to the more detailed candidate phase in October 2016. The candidate file posed over 350 questions, and the compilation of the bid required extensive Government involvement and support. As part of this phase, the World Rugby technical review group visited candidate countries to discuss the progress of the compilation of the candidate file. The visit to Ireland took place on 21 and 22 March. It viewed key stadiums and met with the President, Taoiseach and Ministers, the IRFU and the oversight board and received a number of presentations from sectoral experts.

The formal bid to host the Rugby World Cup was submitted on 1 June 2017. The candidate file ran to approximately 1,000 pages, setting out responses on a range of topics, including finance and governance, transport, match venues, security, ticketing strategy, accommodation provision and commercial rights protection.

In response to the templates issued by Rugby World Cup Limited on 7 April, the bid also contained draft guarantees and undertakings seeking the support of governments to stage the tournament in 2023 for the payment of the tournament fee, the underwriting of the tournament budget, and the provision of public sector supports for the staging of the tournament. They will be discussed further with Rugby World Cup Limited over July, with final versions to be agreed and signed by 31 July.

At an earlier stage of planning for Rugby World Cup 2023, the preliminary legal advice was that legislation was not likely to be required in respect of the State's contribution to a new company that might be established regarding hosting Rugby World Cup 2023. After further examination, however, the Attorney General's office advised in early May that express statutory authority through the passing of primary legislation is necessary for a Minister to provide capital support to a tournament company and to provide the necessary guarantees and underwrites to Rugby World Cup Limited. This is based on the judgment of the Attorney General that there is no specific statutory power for the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to expend money or give guarantees directly on a unique major sporting event such as the Rugby World Cup. Therefore, for the avoidance of doubt, the advice is that express statutory authority is required. This statutory authority must be in place before the Minister signs the guarantees. This means the Bill has to become law before 31 July.

Based on this advice, the Bill before the House has been drafted. The purpose is to enable the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to provide the guarantees and undertakings as part of the bid and, if the bid is successful, enable the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to support the staging of the tournament.

I will now outline the provisions of the Bill. Section 1 defines the terms used in the Bill.

On section 2, if the bid is successful a tournament company must be formed with the Irish Government, the Northern Ireland Executive and the IRFU as shareholders. Section 2 empowers the Minister to play a full part as a shareholder in that company. An agreement on a comprehensive governance structure for the envisaged company that would protect the State's interests is currently being finalised between all three parties.

Regarding sections 3 and 4, as part of the bid the Government is providing an underwrite for the tournament budget and the provision to enable the Minister to give this underwrite is set out in section 3. The underwrite is to give Rugby World Cup Limited the assurance that the tournament would still proceed even if ticket revenues were not sufficient. The underwrite will cover any shortfall in the budget and would come into effect only if the tournament revenues did not cover the tournament costs. Current projections are that the tournament company will make a substantial surplus, which would accrue to the Governments and, in these circumstances, the guarantee would not be called upon.

As with all previous Rugby World Cups, the hosting of the tournament will be funded by ticket revenue. Those revenues will begin to be received in 2022 and the company will be in operation for a number of years before those revenues are available. It is planned that the tournament company would source the cash flow requirements in those years from commercial sources prior to the receipt of ticket income. In the event that unexpected cash flow needs arise, section 3 enables the Minister to advance funding, including loans, to a tournament company.

A number of rights held by Rugby World Cup Limited, such as those concerning selected sponsorship categories, hospitality and licensing, are on offer for potential hosts to bid. This matter is still under negotiation and Rugby World Cup Limited may decide not to sell any of these rights. The provisions in sections 3 and 4 grant the Minister all potential options to support any purchase of these rights and to structure that purchase in such a way that would be of best advantage to the State and the tournament.

Section 5 enables the Minister to pay the tournament fee for the territory of the island of Ireland to be the host territory for Rugby World Cup 2023. The bid proposes that, after receipt of the projected surplus from the operation of the tournament company, the Government will pay the tournament fee directly to Rugby World Cup Limited. As with the tournament underwrite, this support would be shared with Northern Ireland along an agreed ratio. These provisions in sections 2 to 5, inclusive, would be exercised with the consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and the Minister for Finance.

On section 6, a number of other assurances are sought from the Government by Rugby World Cup Limited that the broader environment will be suitable to stage the tournament. These include protection for its trademarks and intellectual property and the support of the Garda in the provision of a secure environment to host the tournament. Section 6 empowers the Minister to provide such undertakings on foot of a decision of the Government. Sections 7 and 8 cover expenditure under the Bill and the commencement provisions.

Hosting Rugby World Cup 2023 is a unique opportunity for Ireland. It would be of great benefit to the country from sporting, economic, cultural and profile perspectives, and this Bill enables the Government to fully support it. Working closely with our colleagues in the Northern Ireland Executive, the Government has been examining the case for hosting for over four years now and we are confident of the case for hosting and of the strength of the bid. The support of the House through the passing of this Bill would send a strong signal to World Rugby of Ireland's desire to win the bid and to host the tournament in 2023. I commend the Bill to the House.

7:15 pm

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The only interjection I made to the Minister's speech was that this is only the second piece of legislation he has brought to the Dáil. When he was talking about being-----

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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So I was correct in what I said.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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He was. He was very excited about it and I am glad to realise it.

As I said to the Minister when he contacted me over the past number of days and when he came before the committee, we as a party will support this legislation because we think it is very important and fundamental in underpinning the bid to host the 2023 Rugby World Cup, which is one of the world's major sporting events, as the Minister said. It is a fantastic opportunity and offers huge potential for the island of Ireland to demonstrate all that we have to offer. I compliment the team headed up by former Tánaiste, Dick Spring, the ambassador, Brian O'Driscoll, Philip Browne of the IRFU and the many others who are involved with this bid.

A lot of preparatory work has gone into this bid going back many years. When we look back, the formal bid was launched in December 2014. That is two and a half years ago. It was the fourth quarter of 2015 when public sectors in both the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland came together to ensure a speedy delivery of the Government's commitment to this bid. That is where the only negative lies, which is somewhat regrettable. That is the fact that this legislation is coming in at the 11th hour. We have to ask the question. Despite the fact that the Minister's officials sought assurances from the Attorney General, why did it take until April of this year for the Attorney General to be confident in her advice to the officials in the Minister's Department? It is not good enough. It looks amateurish. Who is going to be held to account for the misinformation and the delay in time? Even at that late stage, last week, the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport chose to prioritise the Judicial Appointments Bill even though this Bill was ready to come before the House. Where was the Minister's excitement for this critical legislation last week? We should have debated Second Stage of this legislation last Tuesday night in the Dáil. It would have enabled a longer period of time for scrutiny.

I acknowledge that the Minister's officials came before the Oireachtas committee and facilitated a time that suited me in order to give a briefing on this legislation. However, there are other Members of the Dáil who have an interest in this legislation. There are Members of the Dáil who did not have the opportunity to go to the transport briefing last week. I know from having met with the IRFU how excited, eager and fully prepared it is, and it has been very complimentary of the GAA and the FAI, but more so to the GAA, for making their stadia available. I want to acknowledge that today. However, I do not get that same confidence and excitement from the Minister, despite what he said earlier.

This tournament has huge potential. It has potential in the 800 million people that make up its broadcast audience throughout the world. There is phenomenal potential to market the island of Ireland as a whole. We anticipate 445,000 international visitors. Again, that offers huge potential to us as a country. The matches are going to be played in anything between eight and ten venues, ensuring that it will be inclusive and spread throughout north, south, east and west of the country. The 45 team training grounds will ensure that every county in every region stands to benefit from the hosting of the Rugby World Cup. As an island nation, we are lucky that we are so well served from the point of view of 273 direct destinations by air and another 1,200 destinations serviced indirectly. We also have 5.2 million passengers that come directly by ferry. We are ideally placed. As I said, the only difficulty is that we are a little late with this legislation.

Turning to the legislation itself, I understand that we have completed two of the three phases, the applicant phase and the candidate phase. This is now part of the evaluation phase. This legislation guarantees payment of the tournament fee of €120 million. It will also underwrite the tournament budget. We have not been made aware of what exactly the tournament budget is, and I understand that is for competitive reasons. Perhaps the Minister will clarify that point.

The Bill also gives an undertaking with regard to the support of the public services for the tournament. Perhaps the Minister could indicate what public services are going to be improved. Are we talking about the improvement of public transport to a certain venue? Are we talking about ensuring that wherever the international teams are training, they will have adequate and sufficient broadband to match what they are used to in their country of origin? Are we talking about installing public lighting? Perhaps the Minister will elaborate on what exactly that will be.

The Department gave an indication of the sequence and timeline of the advice from the Attorney General. I highlighted that already. It is welcome that the misinformation was identified before it was too late and that the Minister has decided to err on the side of caution and produce this legislation.

With regard to the Bill, it is planned that the tournament company will externally source its cash flow requirements prior to the receipt of ticket sales. Where does the Minister plan to source the cash flow requirements prior to ticket sales? My understanding from the briefing, though perhaps I was wrong, was that the main source of funding for us as the host nation will be the ticket sales. I read an article in The Guardianby Robert Kitson, who highly recommends Ireland as head and shoulders above the other two countries in the final stages. He raised an interesting question. As a country with a population of 6.1 million on our island, how can we guarantee that games such as Tonga versus Uruguay will have a sell-out crowd? Let us compare that to a country like Great Britain with a population in excess of 60 million, where there are people who do not have to travel that same distance and would quite easily go to a game such as that. For instance, if Tonga and Uruguay were playing in Derry, how could we guarantee that we would have sufficient numbers going to that match? Is that being taken into account in terms of the estimated figures of attendance and tickets sales of 450,000?

The Bill enables the Minister to support the potential purchase of commercial rights held by Rugby World Cup Limited, rights by a tournament company or another entity if it is deemed appropriate to directly purchase commercial rights. What commercial rights are we talking about? It is stated that there are a number of these rights. Perhaps the Minister could clarify exactly what rights they are.

The Minister made comparisons to previous world cups. I gave the example of comparing Ireland to Great Britain. We have a population of 6.1 million while Great Britain has a population in excess of 60 million. How can we ensure that we are comparing like with like?

With regard to television rights and free-to-air television, I understand the bid for the 2019 Rugby World Cup has been won by Eir Sport. However, 13 out of the 48 games will still be free to air. Will that still be the case for the Irish Rugby World Cup, if we are successful, in 2023?

I also wish to ask about our accommodation. We are talking about attracting a huge number of people to our country. Can we be sure that we will have sufficient capacity to cater for them?

8 o’clock

In the event of an act of terrorism or a natural catastrophe, such as the ash cloud leading to people not being able to come to the tournament, what insurance is in place to ensure that we will not have to call in our guarantee?

7:25 pm

Photo of Kevin O'KeeffeKevin O'Keeffe (Cork East, Fianna Fail)
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We must acknowledge and compliment the IRFU on taking it upon itself to bid for this World Cup in 2023. I assure the Minister that Fianna Fáil will be supporting the bid. However, it raises many questions. Like previous tourism initiatives, such as The Gathering, this has the potential to generate enormous income for this economy, income that is still much needed. However, it has become clear over the past number of months that the Department is one of the most disorganised in the history of the State. Chaos has prevailed in every decision that has been made. I refer to the Bus Éireann strike, the fact that we are still awaiting the publication of the Moran inquiry, the fact that, with a stroke of his pen, the Minister jeopardised the operations of many hauliers, and the fact that appointments to State boards under the Minister's remit still have not been made. Like every Minister, the Minister relies on the advice of those in his Department. Was he not advised to move earlier on the pre-legislative requirements? I know he answered this in his speech but I am still not happy. Why did he wait until the end of the candidate phase of the process to seek legal advice from the former Attorney General on Government procedures to properly underwrite the bid?

In September 2015, the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, as the junior Minister, gave the Government's undertaking to underwrite the bid. In October 2016, during the next phase of the assessment for the bid, the Minister gave a commitment on behalf of the Government to underwrite the bid. He put out a fancy press release on the issue and we moved on to the next stage, which commenced on 1 November 2016. The Minister waited until 7 April 2017 to seek advice from the former Attorney General, or so the Minister tells us in his letters. Was it because the Minister was not talking to the former Attorney General following the disagreements over a previous motion in 2016 regarding the eighth amendment on which the Minister did not agree with the former Attorney General? We now see the Minister taking two opinions from the former Attorney General.

The Minister and his Department must get their act together. Clarification needs to be provided on the breakdown of the full costs that the Government is prepared to underwrite for the tournament. The figure is reported to be €380 million, and I remind the Minister about what happened when the 2015 Rugby World Cup was held in England. The Labour Government and the then Minister for Sport, Andy Burnham MP, agreed in 2008 to underwrite a figure of £80 million, which was a host fee for the tournament, and also provided guarantees to cover security costs. This was done in 2008 well in advance of the bid being submitted in 2009. The host fee of €120 million for the 2023 Rugby World Cup is an increase of €40 million from the host fee that was required to host the 2015 Rugby World Cup. The Government has rightly agreed to underwrite this in this Bill but, in the near future, we need clarification on the breakdown of the rest of the costs that the Government is prepared to underwrite for the purposes of transparency.

The Bill contains an undertaking to provide support in respect of public transport services for the tournament. I remind the Minister that it is the duty of his Department to do so anyway and it should not have to be enshrined in legislation for him to do so for the tournament. There is time and a place for political grandstanding but I agree that it should never come at the cost of positively promoting Ireland. Fianna Fáil will ensure that this legalisation will pass through the House in the required time before the summer recess on 31 July. The Minister needs to accept that rushed legislation is never good practice but everyone in this House needs to accept that lreland's bid to host the 2023 Rugby World Cup could be over before it begins without this legislation being passed so it important that we get the Bill through. We need to take a bit of short-term pain to reap the long-term gain. On foot of the letter of 30 May 2017, the Minister wrote to the Oireachtas Committee on Transport, Tourism and Sport, of which I am Vice Chairman, and asked us to by-pass pre-legislative scrutiny. We agreed to do so but as Deputy Troy said, we did it without giving other Deputies a chance to ask questions. We spent three months on the fixed-charge legislation and when we get a chance to come here, this Bill is rushed through and I must say I am disappointed. I hope the hosting of the 2023 Rugby World Cup is a low-risk and high-return situation.

Photo of Imelda MunsterImelda Munster (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is fair to say that all parties are hopeful that Ireland's bid for the 2023 Rugby World Cup will be successful. I commend all those working on the bid and wish them every success. This Bill is part of that process. It is unfortunate that the Bill has been so rushed. Our understanding was that legal advice received in February was found to be incorrect and the Department had only been aware of the need for this legislation since early May. We are not sure how or why that happened but this is certainly not the preferred way to legislate.

This Bill deals with a hypothetical situation. It is underwriting and providing finance and support in the event that Ireland's bid is successful because we are speculating on a sporting event that may or may not take place in six years time. The Bill is extremely vague and, in some instances, it seems that further detail cannot be provided at this point in time. It is also a worry when Deputies are being asked to agree to the handing over of a very substantial sum of money to a company that has not been established without having concrete details of the sums involved or indeed even the process involved.

This Bill allows the Minister to provide financial support and funding for the tournament, including a guarantee of that budget, with the consent of the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and the Minister for Finance. I understand that a tournament fee of £120 million will be given by the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to the company and that this money will act as a guarantee should the company encounter financial difficulties or in the event that the company is in arrears after the tournament. Additionally, it is expected that approximately £200 million will be required to host the tournament. I am assuming that this money will be spent on upgrading venues, improving public transport links, policing and other State services. I understand that this money is expected to be recouped through ticket sales. Could the Minister give us a bit more clarity on that? World Rugby will retain the television rights and the majority of the commercial and sponsorship rights other than a very small amount of commercial profit, which may be available to Ireland should World Rugby agree to it. Ticket sales are the only method the State has to recoup its spend. This is apparently how the Rugby World Cup has always operated but it is important to be mindful of that fact. Of course, it is suggested that the State could make a profit on that spend and that the £120 million guarantee will be reduced if the tournament is as successful as previous Rugby World Cups. If this all goes according to plan, that is fine.

However, we need to be mindful of potential problems and pitfalls and we must protect the State's interest in this situation. There are some issues that have not been addressed by the Bill and there are issues on which we require reassurance. We have no figures. I assume that those involved with the bid have an idea of figures. However, there are no figures in this legislation which could prove problematic down the road should the figures escalate.

Section 3(a) states that the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport will "provide financial support in respect of the tournament budget (including any guarantee of that budget)". This could be interpreted as providing a blank cheque. What are the checks and balances to manage the budget and to protect the State's interests? I would like some clarity from the Minister on that aspect.

This should be amended to ensure that the handing over of these sums of money involves Oireachtas support rather than merely the consent of the Minister for Finance. These costs could spiral, and it is also important that there is accountability. While I understand that the criteria for the bid are broad, some of the guarantees sought by World Rugby and which are provided for in this Bill are vast and vague, to put it mildly. While there may be no malice intended, the lack of detail could have unintended consequences. For example, section 6 of the Bill requires that the Minister provide undertakings to the provisions of security, public infrastructure and other such public services. This part of the Bill is also open-ended and I assume that more services could be added. Does this mean that An Garda Síochána will be at the full disposal of the company and the tournament for its duration? If there was a failure in one of these services, would the State then somehow be liable? There is much detail missing here and we seek clarity on all the issues I have raised.

In this Bill, we commit to providing adequate infrastructure and accommodation. It could be argued that, to date, we have failed to provide adequate infrastructure and accommodation for our own citizens, never mind hundreds of thousands of additional visitors. I ask the Minister to elaborate and give clarity on what is specifically envisaged by this, whether it is stadium access or broadband. We also currently have the scandal of families living in hotel accommodation. The previous Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government promised to have all families out of this type of accommodation by last week. This obviously has not happened. The remedies are also totally unacceptable. Hubs are not appropriate homes for families. We also have a shortage of hotel rooms in Dublin. Anyone who has tried to look for a room in the capital city knows that rooms are scarce, and would also know that the prices of rooms are scandalous. How would we accommodate all of our visitors? If we host the tournament without sufficient beds and accommodation, it would be disastrous for the State, but also for our reputation.

Another issue that needs to be tidied up is the arrangement between the shareholders of the company. The shareholders will be the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, a Minister from the Executive in the North and the IRFU. The Minister is the only one who is providing this guarantee to the best of my understanding, and we need clarity on the position of each of the shareholders as well. I know the Minister said there was a ratio breakdown. I ask him to be a little more definitive on what exactly that is, and we also need clarity on commercial rights and sponsorships. It is important that we have a mechanism to ensure that there is a transparent and open process for the allocation of commercial rights and sponsorships. This system should be fair and open to all relevant, interested parties.

Despite all the issues and the clarity I have sought, and the fact that I have said the legislation is rushed, vague and vast - which is an understatement - Sinn Féin will be supporting the Bill. We recognise that, if this bid is successful, it has major potential to showcase Ireland and for tourism and sport in general. Having said that, we still have concerns regarding the lack of detail, the potential for difficulties down the road, the blank cheque, the overrun, the oversight, the costings and all of that sort of thing. As I said at the start, it is not a very acceptable way to expect to have this Bill hammered through in one day.

7:35 pm

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It would be a proud day for Ireland, North and South, if we were to win the bid to host the Rugby World Cup, but that would be the easy part. The challenge would start from that day. The easy part is us passing legislation underwriting the company that would be formed. The challenge is how to undertake the biggest sporting tournament this country has hosted thus far. I know there are people who are sceptical and who are naysayers about the bid, but they are the very same people who are supporting or looking for Ireland to make a bid for the European soccer championship. It would be a much bigger job, and if we undertake the Rugby World Cup, we would be sending out a message that Ireland would be capable of taking on any of these major sporting events. Given that we are a small nation, it would be a very good day for Ireland not only to host it, but to be successful in hosting it.

Having said all of that, there are major problems and issues with our approach. I do not want to be negative, so I will try to be as positive as possible and offer any solutions that I or anybody else can come up with. Once we go down this road, it has to be successful. It cannot fail in any shape or form but it is, as I said, a major undertaking, especially given where we are starting from. We cannot host any tournament at the moment because in this city, where we have two of the stadia associated with this bid, one cannot get a bed in a hotel, hostel or bed and breakfast. We are starting from a bad position. We have to address our housing and homelessness crisis in the first instance. Thankfully, the Luas works in the city are near an end, but again, we have a transport problem in Dublin because we cannot move around the city with ease. They are major problems that need to be addressed and six years is a very short time for infrastructural work.

While we might have the stadia, we do not have the facilities at the world class level that I think is required. Hopefully, moneys will be spent on upgrading the training facilities that will be required for all of these international teams when they come. I hope that, when the bid is successful, we start very quickly on it, similar to when we had the Special Olympics in Croke Park, and especially that we start to develop the host towns, because that went very well when we had the Special Olympics here in the city. Certain key towns or villages, or in this case, probably rugby clubs, become the host for not the teams, but the supporters. As we saw in the European championships recently, Irish fans were located in two parts of France, which was slightly bizarre, with one group at one end of France, where two matches were held, and the other group at the far end. If we are planning, we should locate teams and supporters in one area for that portion of the tournament so that they can enjoy Ireland.

We are a small country and obviously it is not that difficult to move around, but in parts of the country, we still do not have the links that are required in parts of the country, for example, the major motorway between Cork and Limerick, or between Limerick and Galway. The gaps in our public and private transport infrastructure have to be addressed. It even applies to such routes as from Dublin to Derry, and this is obviously connected with the Executive in the North, and to both the Minister's hats of sport and transport.

The Minister needs to appeal to the new Northern Executive, when it is formed in September, to get on with the work of building the motorway network or at least the dual-carriageway network between Dublin and Derry and between Derry and the rest of the country as such issues will hamper some of the planning. I believe that will cause problems for the company that is hosting this. I will deal with some of the other issues as we go through the amendments.

The amendments that I have seen tabled thus far are practical amendments to allow the Minister to appear before a committee to inform us of the progress as we are going along. Six years will pass quickly and as a Parliament, we need to be able not to hold the Minister to account, but to give him both the encouragement required and the support if practical problems emerge.

7:45 pm

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I thank Deputy Ó Snodaigh for his co-operation. We will move on to Solidarity-PBP's Deputy Mick Barry.

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Solidarity)
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I will be sharing my time with Deputy Boyd Barrett.

We would be delighted to see the Rugby World Cup come to Ireland in 2023 and are inclined to be supportive of the proposals. However, we have some issues and concerns that we will now raise.

First, we are not pleased that this Bill is being taken virtually in its entirety on one night. That is not the way business should be done. Rushed legislation does not generally make for good legislation. I understand the position outlined by the Minister that it only became apparent in April or May that this legislation would be necessary for the avoidance of doubt. Had a strong position been taken late last year, however, that we needed a definitive position by a certain cut-off point - perhaps the start of February or the beginning of March - and had the Attorney General come forward with a definitive position by then, we would not be having this rushed debate tonight which we consider has been unnecessary and about which we are dissatisfied. I am registering our opinion in this regard.

As for the essence of the issues, I will raise three issues in my contribution, the first of which is the issue of ticket prices. This is a really important issue for an event like this. This event must not be one where the ticket prices can only be afforded if one is wealthy or very comfortable or if one is prepared to go into hock for a long time to come. This should be an event for the people of Ireland and for that it be so, a key issue is that ticket prices should be affordable. Major sporting events in other countries have been tainted and tarnished by high ticket prices that put the pleasure of sitting in the stadium beyond the reach of ordinary people and their families. I need only give the example of the Olympic Games in Brazil last year where we saw the spectre on our television screens of vast areas of empty seating because those on the other side of the stadium walls could not afford to get in and a high percentage of those in the stadia were filling the corporate boxes. That must not happen here. I want to make that point strongly.

Second, if we hold the Rugby World Cup in 2023, it cannot be like the tide coming in and then going out with nothing left behind as a legacy for the people and sports community of Ireland. There must be legacy in terms of better public transport, better broadband facilities and, crucially, better facilities for sporting organisations, in particular, the ordinary rugby clubs the length and breadth of the country, which nourish and develop the game at the grassroots level and without which rugby in this country would not be anywhere near the force that it is today. I seek feedback from the Minister in his reply as to his vision of how that could be a legacy and benefit for the ordinary clubs.

The other issue I will make reference to, but not in great detail because it will be debated later on when we are discussing amendments, is Deputy Eamon Ryan's important amendment about television rights. This should not be a pay-per-view operation. It should not be the case that someone who wants to watch the games will have to fork out cash for the profit of large corporations. Television rights should be provided on a free-to-air basis. I ask the Minister to comment on that. What is the Minister's view? What is his opinion on how this issue might pan out?

There are other issues regarding the scale of the underwriting that is being spoken of but these will be looked at later on when we are discussing the amendments. I will park my comments there and make way for Deputy Boyd Barrett.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Like Deputy Barry and many others who have spoken or commented on this Bill, I believe we would all welcome a globally important sporting event such as the Rugby World Cup to the country for a range of reasons. Obviously, significant numbers of people in this country appreciate the sport and many people play and love the sport. There also will be potentially a significant economic benefit to the State in terms of the event being hosted here. Arguably, the international attention the country would receive as a result of hosting an event like this would be beneficial. All of those are reasons to be supportive of the bid and of the Government supporting the bid.

However, I also have concerns about this issue. Given the speed with which this has been pushed through, I have not had enough time to even fully go through in my mind what are all the potential downsides, dangers and problems we need to look out for. It is important to flag some of them and as has already been noted, to push all this through in one night, as it looks as though will happen, is problematic in that regard.

Crucially, we need to be sure that with State funding going into this, we come out on the plus side. That means having financial projections, budgets, costings, etc., in order that we can look at the financial arithmetic of it all if it comes to pass and be fairly confident that there will be a net benefit. Unfortunately, I did not hear the Minister's speech. I am scanning through it. No doubt he alluded to the potential benefits. In particular, he refers to the 450,000 high-spending visitors. I have heard figures, such as €1.2 billion, floating around. The Minister, Deputy Ross, might indicate whether that is the figure that is floating around.

7:55 pm

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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I understand the spend would be approximately €760 million.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That is the estimate referring to expenditure by people who would come to visit. That is obviously significant and would generate employment, spin-off activity and tax revenue.

I note in passing, because it is relevant, that we need to look again at the 9% VAT rate. The rate was brought in because the economy was on its knees. There was an argument about the need to resuscitate tourism, retail and so on when those sectors were on their knees. Those sectors have picked up significantly. I believe they have gained significantly from an economic recovery that, to say the least of it, is uneven in terms of who has benefited. In fact, many people are not benefitting. One group that is not benefitting is made up of low-paid, precarious, zero-hour or banded-hour contract workers. Many of these work in the hospitality, hotel, retail and bar sectors. Yet those sectors have benefited and gained a significant boon from the 9% VAT rate. I believe the case for that VAT rate has expired. I do not believe they need that boon anymore. At the least, it needs to be examined. I am keen to see that considered when we are thinking about who would benefit from the additional expenditure in the context of the Rugby World Cup taking place.

It is one thing to say that the State may get back revenue. However, I believe we must be absolutely certain that the State covers its investment from various sources - primarily, I would have thought this will come from areas like VAT – and that we would expect to cover any investment we put in or perhaps make a profit for the State out of it. I believe we should look at the issue of VAT. More generally, we need to be confident that we have a plan to recover any public moneys invested in this event. I do not believe it would be acceptable, although I do not believe we are in danger of it, to repeat some of the scandals we have seen in big sporting bids in some countries, whereby billions were put into projects that, after the events were concluded, were effectively massive white elephants. Such projects included stadia and infrastructure built but never to be used again by anyone.

When I was first asked about this six or eight months ago, the first thing I said was that if we are talking about building stadia then I would be against it, as much as I would like to see a sporting event. We are not talking about that, which I welcome. Therefore, we can be more confident that this event can work and not cost us. However, I would like to see and hear as much detail as possible about how the public interest and public moneys and so on are going to be managed and secured such that we do not lose out as a result.

I wish to echo the points made about free-to-air television viewing. That is critical. There would be rage, frankly, if public money was spent underwriting and supporting this bid only for a position to come about whereby not everyone was able to watch the tournament on television. There would be absolute anger. I warn the Government not to cause a problem for itself and everyone else and to ensure that does not happen. Otherwise, the Government will endure a backlash.

The point about ticket prices is critical. We need to ensure this is an event for everyone and not simply for an elite few. Rugby is not as it is sometimes presented, that is, purely an elitist sport. People from a vast cross-section of Irish society play rugby and they come from all different social backgrounds. However, let us be quite honest. Historically, there has also been in the Dublin and Leinster regions in particular an association with the more privileged sections of society. To some extent that has reflected the reality of the game in certain parts of the country. It is different in other parts of the country but we need to acknowledge this is a fact. Consequently, it will grate badly with people if we do not ensure that this event benefits everyone, that everyone is included, that everyone has an opportunity to go and that no one is prohibited because of the cost of so doing. We need to ensure that the benefits accruing to rugby and the rugby bodies and any benefits that accrue to the State go back into disadvantaged areas to enhance access to sport, rugby and so on. The benefits should go to clubs that perhaps are not part of the elite of the rugby world. They should go to the grassroots game and not only to what might be perceived as the more elite elements of the game.

These are critical matters and we need more detail from the Government about how all of this will be managed. We need to be sure that some of the more concerning outcomes – I am not saying they will transpire but they could and have done in other countries – do not transpire in the context of this bid.

I am broadly supportive and will not oppose the Bill. I support some of the amendments put forward by Deputy Eamon Ryan. I am keen to hear the Minister's response to those issues and the other issues of concern that have been raised.

Photo of Tommy BroughanTommy Broughan (Dublin Bay North, Independent)
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The Minister might remember that it was almost 25 years ago when Gay Mitchell, the former Deputy and Minister, was Lord Mayor of Dublin and put forward the idea that Dublin and Ireland should consider bidding for the Olympic Games. The proposal was controversial given the history of grossly inflated and costly FIFA World Cup and Olympic Games. Some of these events have expanded even further and have cost host countries vast sums since the early 1990s. The recent FIFA World Cup and Olympic Games in Rio de Janeiro seem to symbolise the exploitation of host countries by the wealthy elites running world football and Olympic sports. No one can doubt that much of the expenditure that did not go on lasting infrastructure in Brazil for the 2014 and 2016 events would have been far better spent on essential health and education services for the people of Rio, Recife, São Paulo and the other great Brazilian cities. While the Athens Olympiad in 2004 did enable Greece to greatly upgrade its transport and other infrastructure, the massive costs were a major factor in the growth of Greece's vast national debt, which was greatly magnified by the subsequent EU-imposed austerity and debt repayment programmes.

Consequently, the Government and Oireachtas need to carefully evaluate the likely costs and benefits to Ireland from the proposed hosting of the 2023 Rugby World Cup. I am sympathetic to the general thrust of the amendments before us. The Rugby World Cup needs to be sustainable and singularly well run with tight financial controls. From what I have read and heard of the proposal from my former colleague, Dick Spring, and the Ireland 2023 bid oversight board, those involved seem to have tried hard to meet the necessary strict requirements.

Through major funding of the GAA, the FAI and the Irish Rugby Football Union, the people already have contributed to a network of stadiums throughout the island that are of high quality and easily fulfil the criteria necessary to host the tournament. The GAA, whose director general is a member of the 2023 bid oversight board, must be greatly commended on working closely with the IRFU and providing its iconic stadiums, including Croke Park, Páirc Uí Chaoimh, Casement Park and Fitzgerald Stadium, to support the leading rugby grounds such as the Aviva, Thomond Park and Ravenhill Kingspan. The key sporting infrastructure is already in place and is easily the equal of the infrastructure in New Zealand or Wales, which have hosted previous tournaments. Moreover, mention of Wales reminds me that Ireland has been a co-host of this tournament twice already.

It is striking that the cost of the bid fee for the Rugby World Cup has escalated over the years from £66 million for New Zealand in 2011 to £80 million for England in 2015. The cost will be £96 million for Japan in 2019. This is expected to rise to £120 million in 2023, which could be the year it is held here.

Rugby World Cup Limited is registered in the Isle of Man. I am not sure of the significance of that, but it is an interesting fact. The tournament company mentioned in section 2, of which the Irish Government, the Northern Ireland Executive and the Irish Rugby Football Union, will be shareholders, as well as running the tournament, is underpinned in sections 3 to 7, inclusive, by a series of onerous financial support guarantees to the tournament owner, Rugby World Cup Limited. These include, in section 3, underwriting the Rugby World Cup operating budget of up to £120 million and providing for the advance of loans, if necessary, to the tournament company. Section 4 provides for the purchase and disposal of commercial rights, although we have no estimate of the likely cost-benefit of such rights. Section 6 commits the State to the provision of security, facilitation of participants, public infrastructure and all the other requirements to stage the tournament. The deadline by which the Minister must sign these guarantees has been set at 31 July 2017.

This Bill, in terms of its key provisions, commits the State to considerable potential spending. Perhaps on Committee Stage the Minister will inform the Dáil of the likely costs and benefits under section 4, which deals with the commercial rights relating to the tournament. He might also enlighten us as to the input, if any, of the Government into the feasibility studies, how the Government was consulted in the context of the original feasibility study and about the follow-ups that have been undertaken by the committee. I understand that Ireland’s bid is targeting ticket sales of 2 million and that the receipts relating to these sales will be retained by the tournament company. I echo the comments made by my colleagues, Deputy Boyd Barrett and Barry, to the effect that ordinary supporters of clubs such as Clontarf or Suttonians, both of which are located in my constituency, must be able to attend the great games. Can the Minister give us an estimate of what benefits will accrue to the State from ticket sales and the much more lucrative media rights and sponsorship? The issue of free-to-air has, quite rightly, been raised by Deputy Eamon Ryan.

The involvement of the Northern Executive in this project is important and noteworthy. It highlights the fact that the IRFU was able to maintain an all-Ireland identity after 1922 while the much more popular game of association football was sadly divided when southern soccer clubs formed their own football association. The all-Ireland quality of rugby football is now one of the game’s most attractive qualities. In addition, rugby has evolved in recent decades to become more than a game of the elite and upper middle class. Since the professional era began in the 1990s, rugby has generally flourished and most regions of the State now have rugby football clubs. The exploits of the national team in recent decades and the performance internationally of the four provincial professional clubs has greatly enhanced our national life. The achievements of Leinster, Munster, Ulster and Connacht and the Ireland team often lifted national spirits in the austerity years since 2008. This is a major reason why, in principle, I am supportive of this Bill. I wish the former Tánaiste, Dick Spring, and the bid oversight committee success on 15 November next.

I understand that the World Rugby technical review group has already carried out a two-day fact-finding mission to Ireland and that this group will make a recommendation to World Rugby in October. I presume it will be its decision as to whether we are successful. It is claimed by Ernst & Young that the England-Wales World Cup in 2015 was worth at least £900 million to the UK, with a multiplier effect of up to £2 billion. The 2011 World Cup in New Zealand is said to have generated net profits of £120 million, with a net profit for England-Wales 2015 of approximately £200 million. The proposers also rightly stress the role of the Irish diaspora in supporting the Ireland football and rugby international teams and the closeness of the Irish venues to the three British nations across the Irish Sea and to rugby supporters in our competitor nation, France.

It is critical that the Irish World Cup Committee also proposes and delivers financial support for the further development of sport in the more deprived areas of our country. I echo the statements of previous Deputies in this regard. For example, efforts are being made by Dublin City Council, Fingal County Council and the other Dublin local authorities to develop the game of rugby in lower income areas where it is traditionally unknown but these efforts need significant support. Financial benefits from the event should be earmarked for the many soccer, Gaelic, boxing, athletics and other sports clubs in areas where facilities are minimal or non-existent. I acknowledge that the Minister has been open to receiving delegations from sports clubs from some of the lower income areas where there no facilities and where, for example, in terms of boxing, valiant groups of coaches are supporting 50 or 60 children and youths and giving them an outlet on a shoestring budget and without a proper headquarters. Some of the profits from this event must be invested in our communities, particularly those that are most deprived, and across the island from west Belfast to north and west Dublin.

Ireland has had a shockingly poor record since 2008 in the provision of essential infrastructure, a point made a few minutes ago by Deputy Ó Snodaigh. Most years since the crash, the Government has barely reached depreciation and essential replacement levels of investment in health, education and transport facilities. Owing to a continuous lack of investment, much of our roads and other infrastructure is crumbling. The virtual cessation of housing supply has crippled our society and left thousands of families and individuals homeless. Ireland needs targets to reach for and attain to encourage badly needed investment. Regardless of whether the rugby World Cup bid is successful - I hope it is - we must greatly expand a national investment programme. The summer of 2023 is a reasonable target date for a first phase of national regeneration in respect, for example, of the metro north line from Swords and Dublin Airport, the cross-city Luas in Cork and Galway, which we have discussed many times in this House over the past two decades, the building of the north-west motorway and the massive upgrade of roads such as the N71 and N72, which, in my view, are currently unsafe. These should be priorities in the transport infrastructure brief. These projects will enhance Ireland’s attraction for visitors of all kinds, including rugby followers, and they will remain valuable to our people long after 2023. This, too, is a target to attain.

Our constituents will question the necessity of the Government underwriting a major event or festival and ask whether event organisers should not take all the risks involved. In terms of the organisation that is World Rugby, there are ten or 12 major countries, significant organisations and many other countries where the game is played and people are of the view that should be the case for this event and all events. Perhaps, internationally, institutions such as the EU and United Nations need to examine the structure of the organisation of major sporting events like the Olympics, the Football World Cup, the Rugby World Cup and all the other major continental competitions.

The bid oversight committee and Dick Spring had to operate under the current ground rules relating to these events. They have made a huge effort to get this competition for Ireland and I wish them every success. I will be supporting the Bill.

8:05 pm

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I cannot stress enough how much I support the Bill. For Ireland to be successful in its bid for the 2023 World Cup, this Bill is of extreme importance. Ireland can only benefit in every aspect if the bid is successful. The man or woman selling hats, scarfs or head bands, the chip vans operating on the day of a game, the hotels, the bed and breakfasts, the bars, the shops and our tourist attractions will benefit if our bid is successful. The estimated revenue that this tournament could generate for Ireland is €800 million, possibly rising as high as €2 billion over the four weeks. At the very least, this would pay for a lot of cataract operations.

I was disappointed to hear my colleague Deputy Eamon Ryan, who I like, and others, criticising the Bill yesterday. Does the Deputy not want the Rugby World Cup to come to Ireland?

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I do.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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It is clear he has not read the reports from the IRFU chief executive in respect of the purpose for which the money is required? The €120 million to be paid to World Rugby if the bid is successful will ensure that taxpayers will not be left paying for this event. Does Deputy Eamon Ryan think that if the Rugby World Cup comes to Ireland, nobody will attend the games and taxpayers will be left paying the bill? That is highly unlikely. That said, there is merit in some of the amendments put forward by the Deputy, including the one to the effect that television rights should be provided on a free-to-air basis.

Everyone should be able to watch these games and not have to be on a subscribed service. In addition, the ticket prices should be kept at reasonable cost to ensure that it is affordable to attend these games for both people in Ireland and for the expected visitors. Tickets for games, concerts and other events are being used by touts to get crazy sums of money from our citizens. I hope that will be rectified before any such tournament would come here.

I was very glad to hear that Fitzgerald Stadium in Killarney was announced as one of the proposed stadia. I again thank the Minister, Deputy Ross, for coming to Fitzgerald Stadium in recent months, meeting the steering committee and discussing plans if such a bid is to be successful. That was an important meeting to have at that time. Outside of Dublin, Killarney has the biggest bed capacity in Ireland and I could not think of a better town to play host to a match. We must remember that Killarney is not the tourism capital of Kerry or of Ireland or Europe, it is the tourism capital of the world.

We are just off the back of a massive weekend in Killarney which hosted the Ring of Kerry cycle, the Munster Football Final and the 4 July celebrations only last night, demonstrating the ability of the town to deal with such large crowds and events. This tournament would present the ultimate opportunity to showcase Ireland to the world and to show what we have to offer. When people can see a place like Fitzgerald Stadium with the surrounding backdrop of the MacGillycuddy's Reeks, they will want to come and stay here and not want to return home. That is the legacy that this tournament would leave that is really important for this country. I would very much second what Deputy Mick Barry said, namely, that the real legacy should be better public transport, better infrastructure, better broadband and better facilities for rugby clubs the length and breadth of the country which nourish their sport.

I thank the Minister, Deputy Ross, for all his hard work on both backing this bid and in promoting Ireland as the most suitable location.  Even though this Bill has been left to the 11th hour, I am sure everything will be in order by the end of the month.

I support this Bill. I support the Minister, Deputy Ross, and the Government in every aspect of this bid and the committee, which is being led by the capable hands of the former Tánaiste and fellow Kerryman, Dick Spring. I hope that come November, Ireland will be announced as the official host of the 2023 Rugby World Cup and that the Minister will be there to thank at that time for being the man who steered us in the right direction. I thank him in advance for his efforts on this most important venture.

8:15 pm

Photo of Danny Healy-RaeDanny Healy-Rae (Kerry, Independent)
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I also wish to support this Bill. I wish the Minister and the Irish Rugby Football Union, IRFU, the very best in their bid to host the Rugby World Cup in 2023. This is a wonderful opportunity to showcase the venues and the country all around the world, and the advertising of Ireland in this way will pay for the costs incurred and the staging of the event.

It has been indicated that Fitzgerald Stadium in Killarney is to be one of the venues. I am confident that Killarney, Kenmare, Castleisland, Killorglin and Tralee and many other hostelries around the Ring of Kerry will cater and provide accommodation second to none to the teams, visitors and followers.

I have every confidence in the Fitzgerald Stadium committee. Tim Murphy, our new and very able chairman, and members of the county board will have the stadium gleaming and ready for whatever bustle and pressure comes with staging the games. Where else in the world is their a venue situated in such a beautiful setting surrounded by the three beautiful lakes and under the shadow of the MacGillycuddy's Reeks?

However, work has to be done in the meantime and whatever about the snails and the begrudgers, the Macroom-Ballyvourney bypass will have to be completed in time to ensure that these big sportsmen will not be parked in their cars and buses in Macroom when they should be togged out in Fitzgerald Stadium in Killarney. It is up to this Government to provide the funding for this project immediately and to ensure that after all the waiting, the infrastructure - by that I mean a proper road from Cork to Killarney - will be place for 2023.

I wish the IRFU and the Minister all the very best. We hope that we will be successful in November in ensuring that this massive opportunity comes to Ireland. We have followers of rugby around Castleisland and Currow. We had great men there who represented Munster and Ireland down the years and they had supporters and followers. They deserve that the Rugby World Cup comes to this country.

I wish to raise another matter that is not related to rugby. A group of farmers are waiting in Agriculture House to be met by the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Creed. They are seeking compensation for the loss of their crops last year. I call on the Minister to meet them. The Minister, Deputy Ross, is also a member of the Government. Those men will stay there until the Minister, Deputy Creed, meets them. This is going on for too long. I am sorry, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle, but those men should be at home doing their work this evening, but they are up in Agriculture House waiting to get what is rightfully due to them.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I know it is an important matter but it is not related to the rugby Bill.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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All politics is local and important. I also am delighted to speak on this issue. I am delighted to see the Minister sitting back so relaxed, to have all the House ar gach taobh, all sides, supporting him - not like the pillorying he is getting from my colleague beside me and others regarding the Judiciary - including myself regarding his efforts that we would have a small bit of pleasure in the country. I am 100% with him on the Judiciary. It is nice to see the Minister is relaxed and that he is getting plaudits.

I agree with what Deputy Danny Healy-Rae said. I will not stray into that matter but those farmers should be at home tonight watching their children playing matches, not up here in Agriculture House. The Minister, Deputy Creed, has to go down to meet them. I will be up to his office in a minute to hunt him down.

A successful bid for the Rugby World Cup would be enormously beneficial for rugby clubs all over the State, including our own Clonmel Rugby Football Club that was founded in 1892 and plays its senior rugby in the Munster junior league division. We have many clubs in Tipperary, including the Kilfeacle and Clanwilliam clubs and the famed Rockwell club, to name but a few. Clonmel RFC is a club consisting of hundreds of members ranging from life members to under-8 members. My son played there for a period.

The Ruby World Cup 2023 Bill 2017 will enable the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to support the bid to host the tenth quadrennial Rugby World Cup in 2023 on the territory of this island. I know that Deputy Eamon Ryan has amendments tabled to the Bill but I hope he will not be a killjoy. I do not think he will be. When his colleague was here, a measure was introduced to ensure that we cannot park outside this House. We could play rugby out the back now or graze a few sheep there, and there is also the park across the road. He had a brainwave of putting down grass where we had car parking spaces that we badly needed. Deputy Ryan might give us a hand picking up the rubbish when the games are going on. I am not demeaning him but he made a point today in that respect. If the bid is successful, we will get to stage the tournament.

As Deputy Healy-Rae and many others have said, it is worth the gamble. Why would we not host it? We are a proud sporting people. Why should we not have it in Ireland. The world is our oyster. The Minister should go for it. In terms of the money the Minister has provided for in this Bill, I know people would give out and say there are cancer treatment needs and other issues and we have those issues to deal with but we will have a spin off and a benefit from this Rugby World Cup, not only financially and but also psychologically. It will create a feeling of goodwill and a feel-good factor that only the Irish can put on, whether it is on the field of play, on the streets with the buskers, or in the bars or the restaurants. We can do it anywhere whether it is in Galway or Kerry, where the headquarters of Tourism Ireland should be based, according to my two colleagues, and I do not begrudge them. Fair dues to them. They are good at it in Killarney and Kerry and in Kilgarven as well.

9 o’clock

Any time I have been there, I have been well looked after and I am sure that the Minister would have been looked after well any time he was there himself. In particular, the Bill will grant the Minister the statutory authority to acquire shares in and to support financially an established tournament company by guaranteeing payment of the tournament fee, guaranteeing the tournament’s operating budget, advancing funds to the company, if necessary, and supporting the acquisition of commercial rights for the tournament, including hospitality, licensing and sponsorship. Like others, I emphasise that the television rights must be for all and cannot be grabbed by some greedy broadcaster. Everyone must be able to access this and if they are not able to get tickets, they should be able to watch it. Lastly, it will provide undertakings for the support of public services. In all, the nominal amount of the guarantees or underwritings is likely to be between an estimated €320 million and €340 million. Commitments and surpluses will be split between the Irish Government and the Northern Ireland Executive, if it is still there, using an agreed ratio. However, the historical profitability of the tournament suggests it is highly unlikely the tournament would translate into a net loss to either Government or anyone else.

I am adamant about the television rights. They must be kept for the ordinary people. It is too often the case that sporting events are bought by different television companies. It costs a fortune for people to watch them. It is also very onerous on publicans and hostelries which want to show Sky. We must also have fairly reasonable ticket prices. I am assuming we will get it. I am a positive person and an optimist. Deputy Troy said earlier that he hopes the Minister will still be in the transport portfolio in 2023. I certainly hope that as well. I do not know if Deputy Troy will be here or not but the Minister will be here if makes these landmark decisions and he gets his judicial commission Bill through before summer.

We will know in November. It would give us a lift going into the winter, especially among all the clubs. The Irish Gaels will be able to put their shoulders to the wheel and do what they do best - put on a sporting event and putting their best foot forward to attract people to this country. It will be great advertising. We will showcase ourselves to the world with the World Cup which will be watched all over the world. We will get repeat visits and tourism. Afterwards, people will say that we were wise and brave to take the gamble. The man who never made a mistake never made anything. We are taking the chance. We are looking forward to hosting this event. We want it. The public will row in behind it. I know I speak for the people of Tipperary and elsewhere in that. As Deputy Healy-Rae said, let the killjoys go to hell. They can worry about the snails and all those things. We will deal with all those things afterwards. Beidh an spóirt againn agus beidh an craic againn. Beidh a lán daoine an sásta ar fad freisin. I know the Minister is not great with Gaeilge, especially at the rate I say it, but I support him in this and wish him well. It is one project where no one is giving out to him, unlike how they are trying to torture him on other issues such as judicial appointments and how myself and the lads here are fighting with him over the road traffic Bill. We will keep fighting on those issues but we will support him on this one. We want him to get it right. Along with his officials, the Minister and his colleagues can put their best foot forward. He might give a phone call to the Minister, Deputy Creed, to go down and meet those lads at the bottom of the building in Agriculture House and say hello to them and not hide in his ivory tower.

8:25 pm

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I grew up playing rugby. I have three boys who play rugby, one of whom plays with the famous Terenure Tigers. More than anyone, I want to see us get this World Cup competition to our country. I think we have a chance of winning, such has been the success of Irish rugby in recent years. Growing up, we never thought we would see the quality, skill and the brilliance of Irish rugby that we have seen over the past ten or 15 years in the professional era.

Today, I read a comment from the Rugby World Cup Limited regarding a technical issue on the bid. It said its responsibility was to ensure and protect the integrity of the host selection process which continues to be conducted in line with the highest standards or transparency, fairness and professionalism. It might be doing its bit in running a professional game but I do not think the process we have taken has been transparent or professional. I fear how we have gone about it may not be particularly fair to the Irish people.

I appreciate comments by Deputies Troy and O’Keeffe that members of the committee had a briefing last week. Other Members of this House knew nothing in the details. I tried. I looked back. The IRFU came in with other sporting bodies in early January this year. It did not say anything about the World Cup. As I understand, it was due to return to the committee in March, I presume in conjunction with the visit that the Minister mentioned in his own article of the technical support team for the World Cup hosting process. The Minister said in his speech that this hosting team met everyone. They did not come into the Houses of the Oireachtas, which they could have done. It would have been the easiest thing in the world for us to host a committee and allow the members to ask questions and for us to live up to those standards of transparency, fairness and professionalism.

Deputy Troy is correct. Why was this Bill not dealt with prior to the judicial appointments Bill? Then we would not have been rushed and effectively guillotining it here tonight, something I thought we were agreed that we did not want to do this anymore. Why are we rushing it? Why have we ended up here in this quiet time in the Dáil having to rush it through before 10 p.m.? It is not right, fair, transparent or professional. I am raising my concerns.

I have some simple questions. I am not questioning the merits of getting the tournament here. We have heard nothing but the assertion that there will be €800 million spent. That is all we hear. That is the only detail we get. I have some other questions and I do not know if the Minister can answer them in the time available. The problem is that we do not have the time. Whatever we do tonight, the members of the board who are behind this bid, not merely the departmental officials, but the members of the team which is presenting it and connected to Rugby World Cup Limited, should come before the Oireachtas committee early next week, at a day and time of its choosing, and provide an opportunity for all Members to ask any questions they have in a full and frank discussion. I can see no reason they would not concede that. Have they something to hide?

The questions I would ask are quite simple. All we have is the note from the Oireachtas research office and the Minister’s speech. From what I read, we are taking all the risk. We provide this upfront fee of €138 million and we are also saying we will provide indemnity and insurance against any costs up to a potential cost that the Oireachtas research service tells us is €200 million. We might also provide loan facilities. We may also go into commercial arrangements in terms of licensing. If we are paying €138 million and are guaranteeing up to €200 million, how much is this event likely to cost? Is it likely to cost more than €338 million to run? I do not think so, or at least not significantly more, but it seems to me that we are taking all the risk. If that is what people think is the right decision, I do not mind, but let us be frank and honest about what risk Rugby World Cup Limited or the international rugby authorities are taking. I want to know the likely costs and revenues. Did I hear earlier that it was not possible to say that because of confidentiality? I do not accept that. I do not accept that it should not be possible to say, for instance, that they estimate that it will cost €350 million, and then give us a rough breakdown, or give us an estimate of the revenues. That is not impossible and it is not an unfair question to ask. Whether it is in France, South Africa or Ireland, I do not see it giving huge advantage to any country, one way or another. I want to know if the other countries are providing similar guarantees. Are they taking the exact same approach as ourselves? There was a question of whether the South African Government wanted to engage in any further sports tournaments but is it making similar commitments?

Where does the money go? Can someone tell me what will the GAA get from this? How much will the IRFU get from it? I have no problem with the IRFU getting money to put back in the game but what is the expected profit that would accrue to the IRFU? My only evidence is from previous tournaments, and our research office has given us the statistics. The last Rugby World Cup in 2015 in the UK had a net profit of £200 million. The World Rugby company accounts for 2015 showed profits that year of £189 million. Did all the money go to this offshore company? Is it also incorporated in the Isle of Man as well as Rugby World Cup Limited? Is that where all the profits from this venture will go? I do not deny that we want the tournament but I want to understand where the money is going.

Where is the money going? That is one of the questions I would love to have the chance to ask.

I appreciate the support earlier for my idea that if we are hosting a tournament where we are taking all the risk and providing an upfront cash contribution of €138 million, with no prospect of getting it back, and if the final is to be in the Aviva Stadium, the building to which we contributed €200 million via the Irish Rugby Football Union, we should avoid a position where Irish rugby supporters may have to pay Sky, BT, Eir or whoever for the pleasure of seeing the game. We will have already paid out our money to host the tournament so will we get to see it? I ask this because I have a general belief that this is a social question and it is good for the game of rugby. The bigger the audience, the better. There is real and detailed analysis over the years indicating that sports that adopted a privatised approach ended up losing their audience in the long run. They do not get a seven year old or ten year old watching it, which is not right.

I am concerned because traditionally there were free-to-air broadcasts for every game. The Irish team games will be protected, along with the closing games, because they are on the list of games that must be free-to-air. With the World Cup in Japan in 2019, we will not be able to watch all the games unless we buy a pay-per-view service, which sends the signal that this is where the rugby authorities want to go. It is an inexorable shift that I have seen over the past 15 or 20 years towards privatisation and effectively giving the sport over to Rupert Murdoch and Sky, or whoever else is the highest bidder. I do not like it and it is not good for Irish rugby. Most of the speakers here seem to agree with that idea and I look forward to discussing the amendment when we get to it later and hearing the Minister's views.

Going back to what I was saying about tax, and specifically the profit from 2015, we can see in the tax figures on the website where the accounts are presented that there was £189 million in profit. I do not have the detailed offshore accounts but the tax paid on income seems to be £71,000 from that £189 million in profit. I read with interest the Deloitte report commissioned by the team progressing this bid recently that set out the economic case; it was a very good case and I do not disagree with any of it. The stadiums are already built and we have great hospitality, so everything is set up. Towards the end of the document with regard to tax issues, it stated that in terms of the Rugby World Cup, for a number of reasons, it may well be the case that direct taxes would not be levied on the tournament company itself. I notice that in the Irish tax authorities' notices on 9 May this year, under section 235 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, a host rugby union limited company was granted tax exemption status. Thousands of other Irish sports organisations get tax exemptions so it might not be particularly unusual, but I am asking the sort of questions that I think we should be asking so there can be transparency, which the organisers indicate is so essential to ensure the integrity of the host selection process.

There are also the matters of commercial rights, copyright and trademark rights. It has been distinctively set out that we must agree with whatever arrangements Rugby World Cup Limited seeks to apply. One could understand that in a way. We might not foresee what could happen in five or six years as we are rushing through legislation without the proper opportunity to question the parties involved. We have heard about enough scandals in recent years. Poor old Ronaldo has been caught up in a tax problem arising from image rights, with €14 million in tax allegedly avoided. An Irish company facilitated that tax arrangement. I would like to know why the copyright issues are so sensitive. What is wrong with our copyright laws or international laws? What is special about the copyright and commercial rights that have been set out here?

I could go on asking questions but I am conscious that we do not have much time and we must get through the amendments. We must go through all Stages in the next hour or so. I will go back to where I come from - Deputy Boyd Barrett mentioned south Dublin rugby and I come from there and am proud of it. I am proud of the tradition and people involved with rugby at every level. I am proud to see young Munster supporters as much as those from Wanderers. I used to go to Donnybrook all the time and my favourite perch was just beside Mr. Con Houlihan. I heard the Deputies Healy-Rae - the Healy-Raes squared - mentioning Kerry men and he was my hero. If I had to cite one person as a hero as I grew up, it would be Con Houlihan. He was mad about rugby in that old Castleisland tradition. He was incredibly well respected. If one was with Con at a match, every person passing by would say "how are you Con?". He was loved by the people of this city and the country.

What would Con Houlihan ask today? He would say the best of Irish rugby was the treasuring of the local and certain values. He would have loved the Rugby World Cup. He would have headed off with his duffel bag and the one change of clothes, if there was a change. My love of rugby goes down to that core and it started in the non-professional era. As I said, I am glad we have done so well and the team has been so good. I am referring to the IRFU, and the Leinster, Munster and Ulster branches. They deserve much credit for the way in which we can have incredible pride in what has happened in Irish rugby in the professional era. I want to see that continue and I do not want it enmeshed in an idea that we did not do as good a deal as we could or should have done because we did not give it the time, we were not transparent or we were not really fair as we set up this amazing opportunity to host the rest of the world and show off everything that is brilliant about rugby in this country. The Women's Rugby World Cup provides the exact same opportunity.

I have a fear that we are rushing this and not answering some of the basic questions. I am sure some journalists will start to ask those questions - why would they not? Perhaps there is nothing there and there is no issue in what I have brought up. I would be thrilled if that was the case and it would be absolutely fine, but the questions are worth asking and it is unfortunate that we did not give it the time to tease it out in committee. That is what we are meant to do. We should have done pre-legislative scrutiny and brought in the rugby people and not just Department officials. They should come in to explain some of the nitty-gritty as they want this process to demonstrate transparency, fairness and professionalism.

8:35 pm

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister has five minutes to respond.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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Is it five minutes?

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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That is the order of the House.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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It is a very brief time to respond to so many questions.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It is the order of the House.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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I know it is but it is a brief period. I will try to deal with some of the matters as quickly as possible. The first matter is the delay and the fact that we are coming so late to this, but let me make the position absolutely clear. Preliminary legal advice was given on 1 February, indicating that legislation was not likely to be required in respect of the State's contribution to a tournament company that might be established relating to the Rugby World Cup, subject to any policy consideration in terms of corporate governance that would merit legislation to govern this particular unique transaction. After further examination of the potential governance structures for staging a Rugby World Cup tournament in Ireland, a specific request for advice on vireswas sent to the Attorney General on 3 April. Upon consideration of the viresof the Minister and after receipt of the draft guarantees from Rugby World Cup Limited on 7 April, the Attorney General's office advised on 4 May that express statutory authority through the passing of primary legislation is necessary for the Minister to provide capital support to any tournament company and provide the necessary guarantees to Rugby World Cup Limited in regard to payment of the tournament fee, underwriting of the tournament budget, and the provision of undertakings in regard to public sector supports. This is based on the judgment that there is no specific statutory support for the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport to expend money on or give guarantees directly for a unique major sporting event such as the Rugby World Cup in 2023.

As this statutory authority must be in place before the Minister signs the guarantees on 31 July, the Bill had to be drafted since receipt of the advice and be passed through the Houses of the Oireachtas before the summer recess. We have moved as quickly as possible in light of the advice we got fairly late in the day. This is the wisest course of action we can possibly take. It is not really the 11th hour but it is certainly late in the day and we are giving as much time as we possibly can to it.

Deputy Troy, and many other people, asked about the €200 million figure. It is not an exact figure; it is an approximate figure. We cannot tell exactly what the amount of the budget will be. It would be unrealistic to say that, but that is our estimation.

On the idea that we are somehow on the line for €200 million, I want to kill that particular canard. We are not on the line for €200 million, unless we do not sell any tickets. If we do not sell any tickets, we are on the line for €200 million. We are on the line for €120 million. We are on the line for the tournament fee. We are on the line for €200 million, but only if we do not sell any tickets. Once the tickets revenue starts coming in, we start reducing that €200 million every single day. We will never have to pay out that sort of amount. That is the absolute maximum.

On the question about the feasibility study and whether a lot of care was taken because there are no reliable projections, the study to which Deputy Ryan referred, which was the Deloitte study, was just one of many feasibility studies done. The working groups of the Government agencies North and South of the Border, and let us not forget that this is a North-South collaborative effort, which is one of the great aspects of it that we have understated here, have been set up and have reported regularly. They have done forensic work on this in terms of making projections, which are very conservative. They have looked at what happened in the United Kingdom and made judgements on that, but they have been more prudent than that. They have reduced the average price of tickets. They have looked also at the number of tourists who will be coming here for the Rugby World Cup and made very conservative projections on that.

One Deputy asked how we got up to the figure of 445,000. The reason for that figure, and it is higher than the numbers that went to the UK, is because we are expecting, with reasonable logic, that we will get a huge number of people from the UK coming here. The people in the biggest rugby following nation in the world were not travelling to the UK because they were there already. We will get a huge bonus out of that, which presumably will fulfil and back up the sort of projections we have got, which are not overly optimistic. We must remember that the numbers that attended and the capacity filling of the stadiums in New Zealand and in the UK was well over 90%. There is no reason to believe those sorts of percentages will not be achieved here. We are very likely to achieve them. Let us not downplay that. As a result of the extraordinary effort and enthusiasm being put into it, North and South of the Border, we are confident that we will fill these stadiums and fulfil the ambitions of those who have put so much effort into this particular project.

8:45 pm

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Can I interrupt the Minister?

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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Yes.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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With a view to being helpful, and I know there are quite a few questions, with the agreement of the House we will give the Minister another five minutes. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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I thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for that. I will deal with a few other questions. Deputy Troy and other Deputies asked about the hotel capacity and the accommodation. The accommodation situation is one which is constantly raised in terms of whether we have looked at it properly and accurately. I believe we have done that. Fáilte Ireland commissioned an assessment of the supply and demand for hotel accommodation in Dublin, which reflects the position up to December 2016. Although the results confirm the current shortage, to which a large number of Deputies referred, and there is a current shortage - let us be honest about it - it also indicates there should be sufficient stock, whether being developed currently or being planned, to meet projected demand in the future. The bulk of new stock is due to come on stream after 2018, with an estimated 6,000 rooms added by the end of 2020. We are confident that in the time available to us we will be able - it will be up to my successor and maybe his or her successor as well - to follow this through and project forward to provide a sufficient number of hotel rooms. We have got the warnings we have of this sort, but I do not believe there is too much danger. I will not give too many hostages to fortune, but because we have got the warning and should have the prescience, I believe we will be able to provide the hotel rooms. Currently, there is a problem.

Deputy Boyd Barrett rightly asked about the 9% VAT rate. I am not sure that is particularly germane to the subject, but it is important to address it. The 9% VAT rate was introduced for a very good reason. It was to help the hospitality sector, which would be so important within the tourism sector. It helps the smaller restaurants and the smaller hospitality areas as well. Of course there are some people who get greater advantage from it than others. There are some people and institutions who will give us cause to examine this from time to time. It has given a great stimulus to smaller businesses. It has given employment to smaller businesses. That is a great success, but the large hotels in Dublin should not be allowed to milk that situation excessively. I take the Deputy's point, which is very important.

On ticket prices, it is fair to say that the ticket model has a range of ticket prices that will make them affordable to all. Our projections, and I cannot give the Deputies all the details of that for commercial reasons, are based on ticket prices that are substantially lower than those charged in England in 2015.

I want to make a general point on costs. The extensive study of costs has been ongoing since 2013. This is not some sort of new fly-by-night, ill-considered project. It has come to the House for the first time now, but this has been considered since 2012. It was open to us at any stage between 2012 and now to pull out and to look at the possible projections. The figures have been examined by highly reputable international companies without axes to grind. They have been examined by working groups from here and been revised generally and regularly. It would be absurd to say this is sudden. It is a sudden appearance in the Dáil, but the idea that in some way the nation is unprepared for this project is utterly misleading. I do not believe anyone wanted to give that impression, but that might be the impression given by the tone of some of the contributions.

On transport links, that point was made and it is fair. The demands on infrastructure will be great at the time. There are probably gaps in the infrastructure. The National Transport Authority, NTA, has been involved at all stages in this project. By 2023, because of the capital review and the commitments we have made to transport, we are very optimistic that the transport, road and rail infrastructure will be greatly improved. There is no doubt that at the moment transport is inadequate and that the capital is lacking, but we are confident that we will provide infrastructure which will be more than sufficient to transport people around the country at that time.

I will answer one or two questions raised by Deputy Ryan.

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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If the Minister agrees, we might give him a few more minutes so that he is not rushed in answering. I appreciate the Minister is trying to answer the questions, so we might give him five more minutes to do that.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There are a number of amendments and perhaps Members will take that into consideration. It is the will of the House that we will have it through by 10.15 p.m.

Photo of Aengus Ó SnodaighAengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is not guillotined.

Photo of Pat GallagherPat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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No, by the will of the House. I will give the Minister another two minutes.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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I am sympathetic in terms of the amount of detail Deputy Ryan seeks. I will give him as much detail as possible, and when we come to Committee Stage I will do the same, but he has to realise that we are in a competitive situation. South Africa and France are watching what we are doing and saying and are competing with us for this particular bid.

We cannot reveal everything out in the open at the moment about what our plans are, what the money is going to go on and how much we are bidding for certain for the sponsorship rights. That would be absolute madness. Transparency is fine and let us be absolutely transparent, but let us not commit commercial suicide by saying we are doing this, that and the other. We might as well ask the South African and French Governments to come and look at the books so they can then go and bid just a little bit more. I can understand the point but it is not something we can do at the moment.

What we are being straightforward about is the guarantees we are giving, and the others are undoubtedly being asked for the same guarantees. We are being absolutely straightforward that we will pay the tournament fee of €120 million and we are being absolutely straightforward to World Rugby when they come here - I met them as well - about where our stadia are, what we are going to do with them and how much we are prepared to spend to upgrade them. However, do not expect us to tell the world what we are doing when there are other guys breathing down our throats and saying, "That is what they are doing. We will just bid them up by €1". That is not on. It is a never-never land and we are not going to go there, certainly not at the moment. That is not something the Deputy can possibly expect us to do.

Confidentiality is important at this stage. If we want to win this bid, it is very important that we stick to confidentiality. I will certainly give the Deputy what I can but I do not think it is realistic to ask the Rugby World Cup body to come in here next week at the Deputy's particular whim. They will not be able to answer the sort of questions he is going to ask them. Most of the stuff they are dealing with is confidential. Is the Deputy going to ask them what the French and the others are bidding? He might as well. Come on. This is a contest we want to win. It is not a contest we want to just throw away in the interests of some sort of political adventure.

8:55 pm

Photo of Eamon RyanEamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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It is €338 million of taxpayers' money. A few years ago the Minister was writing about this sort of thing.

Photo of Shane RossShane Ross (Dublin Rathdown, Independent)
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A few years ago Deputy Ryan was in a very difficult position and I would say he spent an awful lot more than €338 million in taxpayers' money at the time.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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That Government took the right decisions.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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That is a difficult argument to sustain.

Question put and declared carried.