Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party) | Oireachtas source

I grew up playing rugby. I have three boys who play rugby, one of whom plays with the famous Terenure Tigers. More than anyone, I want to see us get this World Cup competition to our country. I think we have a chance of winning, such has been the success of Irish rugby in recent years. Growing up, we never thought we would see the quality, skill and the brilliance of Irish rugby that we have seen over the past ten or 15 years in the professional era.

Today, I read a comment from the Rugby World Cup Limited regarding a technical issue on the bid. It said its responsibility was to ensure and protect the integrity of the host selection process which continues to be conducted in line with the highest standards or transparency, fairness and professionalism. It might be doing its bit in running a professional game but I do not think the process we have taken has been transparent or professional. I fear how we have gone about it may not be particularly fair to the Irish people.

I appreciate comments by Deputies Troy and O’Keeffe that members of the committee had a briefing last week. Other Members of this House knew nothing in the details. I tried. I looked back. The IRFU came in with other sporting bodies in early January this year. It did not say anything about the World Cup. As I understand, it was due to return to the committee in March, I presume in conjunction with the visit that the Minister mentioned in his own article of the technical support team for the World Cup hosting process. The Minister said in his speech that this hosting team met everyone. They did not come into the Houses of the Oireachtas, which they could have done. It would have been the easiest thing in the world for us to host a committee and allow the members to ask questions and for us to live up to those standards of transparency, fairness and professionalism.

Deputy Troy is correct. Why was this Bill not dealt with prior to the judicial appointments Bill? Then we would not have been rushed and effectively guillotining it here tonight, something I thought we were agreed that we did not want to do this anymore. Why are we rushing it? Why have we ended up here in this quiet time in the Dáil having to rush it through before 10 p.m.? It is not right, fair, transparent or professional. I am raising my concerns.

I have some simple questions. I am not questioning the merits of getting the tournament here. We have heard nothing but the assertion that there will be €800 million spent. That is all we hear. That is the only detail we get. I have some other questions and I do not know if the Minister can answer them in the time available. The problem is that we do not have the time. Whatever we do tonight, the members of the board who are behind this bid, not merely the departmental officials, but the members of the team which is presenting it and connected to Rugby World Cup Limited, should come before the Oireachtas committee early next week, at a day and time of its choosing, and provide an opportunity for all Members to ask any questions they have in a full and frank discussion. I can see no reason they would not concede that. Have they something to hide?

The questions I would ask are quite simple. All we have is the note from the Oireachtas research office and the Minister’s speech. From what I read, we are taking all the risk. We provide this upfront fee of €138 million and we are also saying we will provide indemnity and insurance against any costs up to a potential cost that the Oireachtas research service tells us is €200 million. We might also provide loan facilities. We may also go into commercial arrangements in terms of licensing. If we are paying €138 million and are guaranteeing up to €200 million, how much is this event likely to cost? Is it likely to cost more than €338 million to run? I do not think so, or at least not significantly more, but it seems to me that we are taking all the risk. If that is what people think is the right decision, I do not mind, but let us be frank and honest about what risk Rugby World Cup Limited or the international rugby authorities are taking. I want to know the likely costs and revenues. Did I hear earlier that it was not possible to say that because of confidentiality? I do not accept that. I do not accept that it should not be possible to say, for instance, that they estimate that it will cost €350 million, and then give us a rough breakdown, or give us an estimate of the revenues. That is not impossible and it is not an unfair question to ask. Whether it is in France, South Africa or Ireland, I do not see it giving huge advantage to any country, one way or another. I want to know if the other countries are providing similar guarantees. Are they taking the exact same approach as ourselves? There was a question of whether the South African Government wanted to engage in any further sports tournaments but is it making similar commitments?

Where does the money go? Can someone tell me what will the GAA get from this? How much will the IRFU get from it? I have no problem with the IRFU getting money to put back in the game but what is the expected profit that would accrue to the IRFU? My only evidence is from previous tournaments, and our research office has given us the statistics. The last Rugby World Cup in 2015 in the UK had a net profit of £200 million. The World Rugby company accounts for 2015 showed profits that year of £189 million. Did all the money go to this offshore company? Is it also incorporated in the Isle of Man as well as Rugby World Cup Limited? Is that where all the profits from this venture will go? I do not deny that we want the tournament but I want to understand where the money is going.

Where is the money going? That is one of the questions I would love to have the chance to ask.

I appreciate the support earlier for my idea that if we are hosting a tournament where we are taking all the risk and providing an upfront cash contribution of €138 million, with no prospect of getting it back, and if the final is to be in the Aviva Stadium, the building to which we contributed €200 million via the Irish Rugby Football Union, we should avoid a position where Irish rugby supporters may have to pay Sky, BT, Eir or whoever for the pleasure of seeing the game. We will have already paid out our money to host the tournament so will we get to see it? I ask this because I have a general belief that this is a social question and it is good for the game of rugby. The bigger the audience, the better. There is real and detailed analysis over the years indicating that sports that adopted a privatised approach ended up losing their audience in the long run. They do not get a seven year old or ten year old watching it, which is not right.

I am concerned because traditionally there were free-to-air broadcasts for every game. The Irish team games will be protected, along with the closing games, because they are on the list of games that must be free-to-air. With the World Cup in Japan in 2019, we will not be able to watch all the games unless we buy a pay-per-view service, which sends the signal that this is where the rugby authorities want to go. It is an inexorable shift that I have seen over the past 15 or 20 years towards privatisation and effectively giving the sport over to Rupert Murdoch and Sky, or whoever else is the highest bidder. I do not like it and it is not good for Irish rugby. Most of the speakers here seem to agree with that idea and I look forward to discussing the amendment when we get to it later and hearing the Minister's views.

Going back to what I was saying about tax, and specifically the profit from 2015, we can see in the tax figures on the website where the accounts are presented that there was £189 million in profit. I do not have the detailed offshore accounts but the tax paid on income seems to be £71,000 from that £189 million in profit. I read with interest the Deloitte report commissioned by the team progressing this bid recently that set out the economic case; it was a very good case and I do not disagree with any of it. The stadiums are already built and we have great hospitality, so everything is set up. Towards the end of the document with regard to tax issues, it stated that in terms of the Rugby World Cup, for a number of reasons, it may well be the case that direct taxes would not be levied on the tournament company itself. I notice that in the Irish tax authorities' notices on 9 May this year, under section 235 of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, a host rugby union limited company was granted tax exemption status. Thousands of other Irish sports organisations get tax exemptions so it might not be particularly unusual, but I am asking the sort of questions that I think we should be asking so there can be transparency, which the organisers indicate is so essential to ensure the integrity of the host selection process.

There are also the matters of commercial rights, copyright and trademark rights. It has been distinctively set out that we must agree with whatever arrangements Rugby World Cup Limited seeks to apply. One could understand that in a way. We might not foresee what could happen in five or six years as we are rushing through legislation without the proper opportunity to question the parties involved. We have heard about enough scandals in recent years. Poor old Ronaldo has been caught up in a tax problem arising from image rights, with €14 million in tax allegedly avoided. An Irish company facilitated that tax arrangement. I would like to know why the copyright issues are so sensitive. What is wrong with our copyright laws or international laws? What is special about the copyright and commercial rights that have been set out here?

I could go on asking questions but I am conscious that we do not have much time and we must get through the amendments. We must go through all Stages in the next hour or so. I will go back to where I come from - Deputy Boyd Barrett mentioned south Dublin rugby and I come from there and am proud of it. I am proud of the tradition and people involved with rugby at every level. I am proud to see young Munster supporters as much as those from Wanderers. I used to go to Donnybrook all the time and my favourite perch was just beside Mr. Con Houlihan. I heard the Deputies Healy-Rae - the Healy-Raes squared - mentioning Kerry men and he was my hero. If I had to cite one person as a hero as I grew up, it would be Con Houlihan. He was mad about rugby in that old Castleisland tradition. He was incredibly well respected. If one was with Con at a match, every person passing by would say "how are you Con?". He was loved by the people of this city and the country.

What would Con Houlihan ask today? He would say the best of Irish rugby was the treasuring of the local and certain values. He would have loved the Rugby World Cup. He would have headed off with his duffel bag and the one change of clothes, if there was a change. My love of rugby goes down to that core and it started in the non-professional era. As I said, I am glad we have done so well and the team has been so good. I am referring to the IRFU, and the Leinster, Munster and Ulster branches. They deserve much credit for the way in which we can have incredible pride in what has happened in Irish rugby in the professional era. I want to see that continue and I do not want it enmeshed in an idea that we did not do as good a deal as we could or should have done because we did not give it the time, we were not transparent or we were not really fair as we set up this amazing opportunity to host the rest of the world and show off everything that is brilliant about rugby in this country. The Women's Rugby World Cup provides the exact same opportunity.

I have a fear that we are rushing this and not answering some of the basic questions. I am sure some journalists will start to ask those questions - why would they not? Perhaps there is nothing there and there is no issue in what I have brought up. I would be thrilled if that was the case and it would be absolutely fine, but the questions are worth asking and it is unfortunate that we did not give it the time to tease it out in committee. That is what we are meant to do. We should have done pre-legislative scrutiny and brought in the rugby people and not just Department officials. They should come in to explain some of the nitty-gritty as they want this process to demonstrate transparency, fairness and professionalism.

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