Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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24. To ask the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs to outline her views on whether a full audit of Tusla's child protection responsibilities is required (details supplied), with particular regard to its uses of section 13 of the Child Care Act 1991; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [31345/17]

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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First, I record my condolences and those of my party to the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Katherine Zappone, on her recent loss. I pay tribute to her late wife's extraordinary contribution to Irish life.

Following the recent report by Dr. Geoffrey Shannon and the subsequent "RTE Investigates" programme, does the Minister believe a full audit of Tusla's child protection responsibilities is required, with particular regard to the use of section 13?

Eugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I join Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire in offering my condolences to the Minister.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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Thank you. I appreciate and accept your condolences. It helps me during this period.

As stated in my previous reply to Deputy Anne Rabbitte, I have developed an implementation plan to address the recommendations made by Dr. Geoffrey Shannon relating to Tusla. They have been agreed with him and are being implemented without delay. Several recommendations relate to the practice and procedures for seeking and using emergency care orders under section 13 of the Child Care Act 1991 to which the Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire has referred.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire will be aware of one point, but I believe it is important to highlight it. It was not within Dr. Shannon's terms of reference to review Tusla's actions in his recent report. However, I am strongly of the opinion that, based on the work carried out by him, the next logical step is to conduct a detailed study of how section 13 is implemented by Tusla. I have asked it to commission suitably qualified and experienced researchers to examine this issue in detail.

The research will examine the children's experience of being received, out of normal working hours, into Tusla custody. It will examine Tusla's decision-making process in deciding whether to apply for an emergency care order under section 13. I have asked that the research examine the reasons when a decision is made to return a child to the home from which he or she was removed by the Garda. This was the subject of much commentary. I think it is important that we understand why these decisions are made. The research will also identify where children have been the subject of repeated section 12 interventions and examine the reasons behind them.

I believe the research will provide clarity on the realities for children when sections 12 and 13 are invoked to protect them. The examination of the operation of section 13 will provide an understanding of the reasons staff initiated the actions. It is important that the research and the findings be regarded as a positive and constructive exercise to show us what is working and what is not. First and foremost, the purpose is to help us to provide the best possible response for children when they are taken into the custody of Tusla in emergencies.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for her response. I will return to that aspect of the matter. As the Minister is aware, we have had debates at the committee in recent weeks. Mr. McBride and Dr. Geoffrey Shannon were before it. Several differences in emphasis and perhaps in detail emerged in the contributions made by both gentlemen to the committee. I wish to flag some particular issues about which I want to ask the Minister specifically. Is she committed to implementing the recommendations of the Shannon report? The big issue in terms of the discrepancies in the report was the lack of a proper 24-hour service. The answer cannot simply be the provision of a telephone line. I believe it is possible to provide such a service and it should not be dictated by demand. Much of the exercise has already been carried out in respect of where the demand is.

Will the Minister tackle the excessive reliance on private placement organisations that have the ability to refuse children? One consequence of this practice is that we see children still being referred to this day to Garda stations. That is entirely unsuitable. What will the Minister do to ensure the inter-agency co-operation which was described as poor and superficial can be improved?

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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As I indicated, I put in place a comprehensive response to the recommendations made in Dr. Geoffrey Shannon's report as a result of meetings and an agreement with him on the initial way to proceed in that regard.

Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire's last question was on inter-agency co-operation. Several aspects in this regard will be examined and reported on to me in ensuring better inter-agency co-operation. In particular, we will examine the Garda and Tusla and what is going on in terms of the strategic liaison committees, the membership of which comprises representatives of the Garda and Tusla.

Another question was related to co-location and whether we needed the physical presence of gardaí and Tusla staff working together.

Initially, co-location will be piloted, following which consideration will be given to how it can work better such that in other settings, including at national level, we can have a co-location of Tusla and Garda to ensure a better response to the children invoked in terms of section 12.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I recognise that Tusla's job is difficult and that it inherited a difficult situation. As I have previously noted, we have an unhappy history of child protection in this State. Issues are still regularly being raised in regard to weaknesses in our child protection services. For this reason, I called some weeks ago in this House for a full audit of the child protection system.

I noted with interest an announcement on the airwaves of a review or a piece of research into the section 13 cases. I welcome this. I believe we need a transformation of our child protection services and a roadmap along the lines of A Vision for Change to achieve it. In regard to the independent research, I believe it should be independent of Tusla and that the Department of Children and Youth Affairs should have oversight of it. It must have access to social work files, Courts Service reports, where relevant, and it should have a broad terms of reference, with the potential to expand beyond section 13 cases, if necessary and appropriate. Also, Tusla should not have a veto over its recommendations. That is important. Is this the type of audit the Minister envisages?

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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Yes, and it will be independent. The progress of commissioning the independent research has already commenced. I agree with Deputy Ó Laoghaire that in terms of understanding social work decision-making it would be helpful to have social work input. The chair of the board of Tusla has responded to my request to commission that independent piece of research and is currently putting it in place.

In regard to the Deputy's call for a wider audit, there are two points I would like to make. It is important to note that the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, has inspected all of the Tusla child protection services, including how social workers' respond to children in emergency. All actions identified by HIQA are being implemented. HIQA and Tusla report any outstanding issues to my Department. All of their inspections reports are published. In regard to the statutory investigation that I directed HIQA to have carried out under section 9 of the Health Act, the Deputy should look again at the terms of reference as they relate to the handling of child sex abuse allegations, which at my request provide that if in the course of that piece of research there are reasonable grounds to believe that there are further or other serious risks to children or persons receiving services these should be reported to HIQA or to me as Minister. There are many ways in respect of which Tusla is currently under scrutiny, some of which were put in place by me. I must wait until these have been completed and reported to me, when I will then consider what further action might be necessary.