David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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36. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the details of the submission made to the Public Service Pay Commission by his Department and the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform that states the Defence Forces are currently experiencing a significant exit of trained and experienced personnel due to the improving economy and the increased opportunities available to further develop their careers; the way in which this is impacting on recruiting specialised personnel; and his plans to address the severe pay issues for low and middle ranking members of the Defence Forces through a change of policy that would end the practice of enlisted personnel receiving an annual gross income of less than €24,518 per year. [23199/17]

David Cullinane (Waterford, Sinn Fein)
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63. To ask the Taoiseach and Minister for Defence the reason for an estimated one in ten members of the Defence Forces being in receipt of less than a living wage of €24,518 per annum; his views on the claims by military families that poor wages are a significant factor which has resulted in spiralling levels of debt and hardship for Defence Forces personnel; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [23198/17]

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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This question is to ask the Minister of State what he is doing to address the severe pay issues among low and middle ranking members of the Defence Forces who are crying out for help.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 36 and 63 together.

As I confirmed in my earlier reply, my Department has raised recruitment and retention issues, as part of its submission to the Public Service Pay Commission. This submission was made in accordance with the required protocols for submitting observations to the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform for onward transmission to the commission. In the interests of transparency all submissions made to the Public Sector Pay Commission will be published on the commission’s website. Pending publication of same and in the light of the anticipated forthcoming negotiations I am not in a position to disclose further specific details in relation to my Department’s submission.

With regard to staffing, the manpower requirements of the Permanent Defence Force, PDF, are monitored on an ongoing basis in accordance with the operational requirements of each of the three services. Personnel are posted on the basis of operational needs across the defence organisation, both at home and abroad. As there is a significant turnover of personnel in the Defence Forces, targeted recruitment takes place on a regular basis so as to maintain the personnel numbers at or near the agreed strength levels. In terms of overall strength, the Government remains committed to maintaining the stabilised strength of the PDF at 9,500 personnel.

In recent times, the Defence Forces have witnessed the loss of personnel, including specialist personnel, across all three services. Given the improvement in the domestic economy and increased demand for experienced specialist personnel, this has presented a significant challenge for the defence organisation. This was specifically noted in the pay commission's report.

The Lansdowne Road agreement provided for increased salaries during 2016 and 2017 in a manner which benefited the lower paid. These benefits come in the form of increases in gross pay in 2016 for those earning up to €31,000 and in 2017 for all those earning up to €65,000. In addition, the Government has introduced legislation which has commenced the process to reduce the pay reduction applied under the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest, FEMPI, Acts.

In regard to the pensions related deduction, PRD, which is commonly referred to as the pension levy, the exemption threshold for payment of the levy will increase substantially during the course of the agreement from €15,000 to €28,750, which means that annual income subject to the levy below €28,750 will no longer be liable to the deduction.

As mentioned earlier, future rates of remuneration will be determined as part of the anticipated negotiations in the coming weeks.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Minister of State accept that there is a problem with retention as a result of low pay and low morale? In answering another question earlier the Minister of State tried to equate the enthusiasm of applicants and raw recruits to being the morale of the entire Defence Forces. That is something he cannot do. Is he aware that from 2013, over 2,200 members of the Defence Forces have either retired or dropped out and that that figure could have been much higher but for the challenging economy outside the Defence Forces and the lack of job opportunities? Will he agree that unless action is taken, he will see an accelerated rate of Defence Forces members retiring early or dropping out? Unless the Minister of State starts to address the pay and conditions, and the retention problem, not only will he not achieve the 9,500 figure he mentioned but it will be much lower than it is at present.

Is the Minister of State aware that almost 750 Defence Forces personnel are surviving on wages below the living wage of €24,500 and that the number of those dependent on the family income supplement, FIS, to provide for their families who have declared thus far has doubled in the past year to 124?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I have asked the Department of Social Protection for the exact number of members of the Defence Force that are in receipt of family income supplement but I am not able to find that out.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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He gave it out yesterday.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I hear different figures from everyone around the House. Someone told me previously that 70% of members of the Defence Forces are on family income supplement. I totally dispute that figure. I have acknowledged in the past, and I will continue to do so until we solve the problem, that there are retention issues and the reason for those is the improving economy. I want to state also that the Irish Defence Forces was the only public service organisation that had continuous recruitment from 2011. When no other organisation in the public sector was recruiting, the Irish Defence Forces continued to recruit.

I referred earlier to the public pay commission report published last week, which set out clearly the challenges we face as an organisation. We are moving on to part 2 of that with public service pay and representative organisations will be very much included in that.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Last week, 9 May, the Minister of State's colleague, the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Leo Varadkar, responding to a question from my colleague, Deputy Pat Buckley, stated that 124 people who stated they were members of the Defence Forces were in receipt of FIS. The figure for the previous year was 127, and it was 49 in 2013. I hope that is helpful to the Minister of State and that he will not have to ask for the figure. The question is already answered.

The key concern is for the families of members of the Defence Force if they are living in poverty and if the members cannot carry out their duty to turn up at their barracks because they cannot afford to buy petrol for their cars or ensure that their families are looked after.

That is the concern. If that continues in a changed economic environment, more personnel will be lost and the crisis within the Defence Forces will get bigger.

Lisa Chambers (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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The fact that, in this day and age, there are those in the service of the State with responsibility for protecting the State and who face the possibly putting their lives at risk are on an annual gross salary of less than €25,000 needs to be addressed. To be fair, the Defence Forces comprise one of the arms of the public sector that has taken a severe hammering over the past ten years. If we are honest about it, we will realise that the inability of the Defence Forces to go on strike and the fact that personnel are not unionised and must take and carry out orders may be taken advantage of.

The Minister of State has spoken about the inaction of previous Ministers for Defence. It is irrelevant. He is the person in charge now and the person tasked with defending the Defence Forces and bringing a proposal on public sector pay to the table. We need to see a significant increase in pay, not a minuscule one or one that does not actually afford any extra purchasing power. In this day and age, the salary does not provide an adequate standard of living. We seriously need to address pay. We are always talking about the loss of experienced personnel, the officer corps, but the privates and NCOs are the ones on seriously low incomes and the ones who are mainly affected.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I am not sure whether the Deputy listens to other spokespersons. They come in and defend various interests, be it the nurses, teachers or gardaí. I absolutely admire them for defending various organisations and I will defend the Defence Forces absolutely, but everyone is looking for more money. Has the Deputy been around for the past five years and noted where we have come from since 2011? Since the Deputy's party's Government left office in 2011, we have improved the economy. The needs and requirements of members of the Defence Forces are highlighted in the Public Service Pay Commission document. I will absolutely fight my living best to make sure they get recognised for their work, capability and capacity and for the way in which they defend the security of the State. I will absolutely do so, and have no problem doing so, but I will also recognise the challenges we have. I am not prepared to go back into recession years, such as 2011, 2012 and 2013, before which we just threw the money at public servants. We have to work this out in a very prudent way and with prudent management of our economy. I hope that every Member of this House recognises that.

I thank the Deputy for letting me know there are 224 members of the Defence Forces in receipt of family income supplement. I will not have to go looking for the information now.