Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Deputies Éamon Ó Cuív, Mattie McGrath, Martin Ferris and Bríd Smith have three minutes each to make an initial statement and the Minister of State has four minutes to reply.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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It is ironic that we have just been talking about overheating in one part of the country but as the Minister of State, who is from Mayo, will be hugely aware, the problem in many parts of rural Ireland is that there are not enough people. This Government has done virtually nothing except exacerbate that problem. What is happening with regard to the post offices is symptomatic of the ability of this Government to commission reports, evaluate plans and publish documents that have already been published many times previously in different guises while doing nothing. I am the first to recognise, because I live in the real world, that post offices face a challenge. I am realistic enough to accept that there is a challenge in the migration to e-payments by many citizens. However, I do not accept the inaction by the Government because there are many people who would avail of more services in post offices if they were available.

5 o’clock

Whereas for some of the population and particularly those who use iPhones, tablets and so on, e-booking and e-payments are very handy, there are many people who think that is a very mysterious world and much prefer to do the thing in person.

Bobby Kerr published his report in January 2016 and it is now March 2017. A working group was established; it had one meeting between July and November 2016 but we have still had no action. I repeat what needs to happen: motor tax; white-label offerings and projects in telephony, energy, financial services and banking. The Minister of State knows the menu.

The issue here today is not what needs to be done. The issue is whether the Government will do it. If it does not do it, we will not be talking about 80 post offices. I hear from postmasters and postmistresses that persisting with the status quowill mean that very cleverly, the Government and An Post are forcing them out of business. It is not viable anymore because the Government will not give them the alternative services to address dropping mail volumes and dropping revenue that is happening in every post office in the country.

Finally, let me say the Government is closing the post offices and it will not give us broadband either.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this Topical Issue today. The Rural Independent Group recently tabled a Private Members' motion. We had consultation with the Departments of Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs, Communications, Climate Action and Environment and the Taoiseach. The motion was agreed and we were delighted. Everybody supported it here. In Monday's edition of the Irish IndependentCharlie Weston reported that an unpublished report, which we have been awaiting, will recommend that 80 post offices should close. If these indications from the unpublished report are accurate, our worst fears will have been realised. It will result in increased economic hardship, increased social isolation and an escalation of the decline of rural communities.

I remind the Government that as recently as last November, it supported a Dáil motion on the future of the post office network tabled by the Rural Independent Group. We asked for clear and explicit commitments in terms of seeking out new and innovative approaches to sustaining the post offices in rural communities. We all thought that acceptance of that Dáil motion meant we were all right. However, here we are. The Government is doing nothing while Rome burns and is twiddling its thumbs. The Government is either committed to rural post offices or it is not. So far all the indications are that the Government will continue to speak out of both sides of its mouth on this issue. We need absolute clarity. We need an acknowledgement that rural areas cannot cope with the level of withdrawal of services going on at present, including post offices, credit unions and what is happening with our roads. It could lock the people up altogether, as Deputy Ó Cuív said. It gave us no broadband either.

As a Deputy from a rural county, the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, should understand. I think it might have been a trick by the Taoiseach when announcing his last Cabinet he split ownership across three Departments and no one knows who is responsible. None of them is responsible and none of them is looking after it. The Government is closing them by stealth. It will not allow them do motor tax or driver licences. It will not allow them to be tourist offices. It will not allow them do the parcel post. It is strangling them with their hands behind their backs and eyes blindfolded.

As the Minister of State knows, the postmasters and postmistresses give sterling service. There is a huge social aspect to their service and they are willing to do much more if the Government lets them. Successive governments have closed them by stealth, but this Government has been the worst. We are going to be stripped of more post offices resulting in less connectivity. It was buses last week and also last week the credit union in Clonmel was bulldozed into taking over debts from Charleville credit union. Now it is the post offices.

The Minister of State has no empathy with rural areas. Is he trying to punish the electorate after it punished Government members for their reign of terror over five years in bailing out the banks? Is it trying to take away everything from rural communities? Given that he is a rural Deputy, the Minister of State should know what is going on. He should hang his head in shame. The post offices represent the last bastion. The Government let the Garda stations go. If it were approached imaginatively, the post offices could also be used in the evening time to allow the community garda be in there for an hour to meet people. There are many imaginative ways to support the post offices instead of strangling them, stifling them, kicking them down the road and insulting the good postmasters and postmistresses. There is huge waste in the GPO with many staff who have had no meaningful work for decades. The Government should look at where the real problem is with waste and not with the individual post offices.

Martin Ferris (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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If 80 rural post offices are to close as reported, it would be a national scandal and it has to be resisted. I would like to think that the Minister of State, Deputy Ring, who comes from a rural community in one of the most western parts of our country, would have a full understanding of the value of post offices and the life link it is for rural areas. Over recent years we have seen the total erosion of small shops, the creameries are practically gone, Garda stations have closed down and a lot of pubs have closed down. These are all areas of what I would call rural connection. Those facilities, along with our small post offices, are of immense value particularly for those who live in isolated rural areas and those who are elderly. They depend upon that for the social connection.

Representatives of An Post management told the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Arts, Heritage, Regional, Rural and Gaeltacht Affairs that 55 out of 500 are unsustainable. However, how is unsustainability defined? Is it defined just in monetary terms or by the social value it gives to communities? I argue that small post offices are invaluable to rural areas. Elderly people can go to post offices and the post offices come to them through their postman and they keep that connection. If the post offices are closed down it would be another death knell to rural areas.

We need to be prepared to stand up and ensure we judge the value to the community, not as unsustainable but as sustainable. Having such facilities in a community adds to the sustainability of the community. The Government and previous Governments have had a very negative impact on rural areas. I have considerable faith in the Minister of State, Deputy Ring; I say that as an Opposition spokesperson. The fact that he lives in a rural area and is acquainted with what is happening there means that he should be able to take this on and defend the facilities for rural areas. He should defend the small post offices so that they survive and that connection to rural communities is maintained.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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If we had €1 for all the various committees and studies on An Post that have been commissioned by the Government we would have a nice few bob in a savings account in An Post. There has been a plethora of working groups reviewing the post office network. One was under the auspices of the Minister of State, the post office hub working group to examine the Kerr report which, itself, was a separate report. In addition, the Government set up a network renewal implementation group. Meanwhile the Minister, Deputy Naughten, and his officials are examining the potential for motor tax etc. to be paid through post offices.

I ask the Minister of State to explain to us how all these groups knit together to try to resolve what An Post claims is an impending crisis for the 1,100 remaining post offices. Obviously, the announcement that 80 are to close is an indication of the failure of these groups to come up with ideas. For example, we could give some sort of public service obligation payment to the post offices, which they do not receive. We could stop underfunding them and stop removing services from them such as social welfare payments by insisting that certain Government payments must be made through bank drafts etc. The State could form something similar to the Sparkasse or Kiwibank models that would help An Post perform multiple functions and therefore survive.

It reminds me of the same rhetoric we have heard regarding Bus Éireann.

In that case, it is claimed that we cannot keep the service going, that it is costing the State too much, that it is valuable for rural Ireland but that it is too expensive and not competitive. The operative phrase is “not competitive” because we are running down social services for the sake of neo-liberal ideas that profit must be made and one must be competitive. It is not going to work without risking the fabric of rural life being torn apart, if that has not started already. The threat to An Post and the threat to Bus Éireann are one of the same threats to the fabric of rural society. It is also winding it up to send a signal to the workers in both Bus Éireann and An Post that they better not dare look for a pay increase the way the Luas or Dublin Bus drivers or other workers did, that there is a crisis and that they will not get any pay rise. Will the Minister of State comment on all of these points, in particular how this will destroy the fabric of rural life?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I want to be very clear and place on the record of the House the fact that I have no statutory responsibility for An Post or post offices. Overall responsibility for the postal services and for the governance of An Post lies with the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Denis Naughten, while operational matters and commercial decisions are a matter for An Post. I have no function whatsoever regarding post office closures. As a rural Deputy-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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On a point of order, why is the Minister of State here then? This is ridiculous.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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This is a joke. This is the best one ever. I have often seen Ministers coming in on behalf of other Ministers and apologising for them but I have never seen them disown them.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mattie McGrath is upset because it is an Independent Minister.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I am not upset. I just want to find out who is responsible.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am telling the Deputy who is responsible.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Why is he not here so?

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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He is meant to come in. Where is he?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I will move on to the next Topical Issue if I do not get order in the House.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I want to put on the record of the Dáil what is factual.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The Minister of State is not responsible, however.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I will move on to the next Topical Issue if the Minister of State is interrupted again.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Do we get the right to come back?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Yes.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Then let us hear what the Minister of State has to say.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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We can come back but the post offices cannot come back.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Deputy want to push it and see me move on to the next Topical Issue?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As a rural Deputy, I know first-hand just how important the post office is to rural Ireland. I recognise that post offices play a significantly valuable economic and social role in rural, as well as urban, areas. At the same time, we must accept the reality that the postal sector is undergoing fundamental change both at home and internationally. People are increasingly using e-mail and social media to communicate, rather than using traditional postal services. Businesses, too, are increasingly providing services online. As a result, core mail volumes have decreased year on year. This is not just an Irish trend but a global one.

The chief executive officer of An Post said today there has been a decline of nearly 50% in mail services globally. An Post is currently carrying out a comprehensive review of the company, led by McKinsey consultants with a view to developing a long-term strategic approach to the business. Much media coverage has been given this week to the post office network and references to a report completed by Mr. Bobby Kerr. Mr. Kerr’s report was carried out for An Post, not for the Government. Mr. Kerr submitted his recommendations to An Post in December. At this point, I call on An Post to publish Mr. Kerr’s report, given that much of what it contains is already in the public domain. An Post should also clarify how Mr. Kerr’s report will feed into the wider decision-making process once the McKinsey process has concluded.

It is important to put on the record that the post office network is not owned by the State. An Post is a commercial State body. As of the end of February, there were 1,121 post offices nationwide, 50 of which are operated directly by An Post, with the rest being run under contract to An Post by postmasters and postmistresses. Decisions about the post office network and whether there are to be any closures are matters for the board and management of An Post.

That said, the Government is committed to working with stakeholders to ensure the ongoing sustainability of the post office network in the changed environment in which it operates. While I have no statutory responsibility for An Post, as I have said already, I have been working with the various stakeholders to ensure the commitments in A Programme for a Partnership Government for the post office network are delivered. As a rural Deputy, I believe post offices should be encouraged to play an increased role in the provision of services in rural areas and generate new economic activity that can support the revitalisation of rural Ireland.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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That was the most extraordinary performance ever by a Minister of State. There was an arrangement made-----

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I learned from the Deputy a lot.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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I delivered on the ground. The Minister of State knows that and he admitted it to me many times.

The Minister of State claims he has no responsibility for An Post but gives us no explanation regarding where the Minister is. Under Standing Orders, the Minister responsible is meant to take Topical Issues.

I am realistic enough to know there is migration away from postal services and we all use the Internet more. However, there are plenty of other services which can be put into the post offices. The Government has been talking about this for six years but N-O-T-H-I-N-G - nothing, tada, rud ar bith - has happened. That is our question. Is the Government going to let these post offices wither on the vine and disappear or realise it has ultimate responsibility for them?

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I know we are a week into the Lent but what the Minister of State is doing, blaming the Minister, Deputy Denis Naughten, is the greatest Pontius Pilate act I have ever witnessed. I had to deal with all the Departments involved and they dealt with our recent motion on this.

We got the report from An Post. What does it do this week? It puts up the price of a stamp by 35% when sales of stamps are dropping. Any other company which did that would be out of business in a week. This is heads in the sand stuff.

Last week, the Minister of State announced another sham consultation about public banking. Our motion sought to allow the post office network become involved in community banking. The Minister of State is having a consultation period on this but the network will be imithe – gone - like the snow off the ditch. The Minister of State is passing the parcel to the other Minister, Deputy Denis Naughten. It is he who should be here dealing with this, instead of the Minister of State hand-wringing, doing a Pontius Pilate job and passing the buck. The post office network is disappearing before our eyes while the bus services and Garda stations are gone. There will be nothing left in rural Ireland, only the hen harriers, along with the weeds and the ditches the Government will not let us cut.

Martin Ferris (Kerry, Sinn Fein)
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Several weeks ago, Sinn Féin put down a vote of no confidence in the Government. Today’s report from the Minister shows how right we were. This is a Government which has no responsibility for the workings of a network which has served this country for decades. Rural Ireland is in irreversible decline because this and successive Governments have neglected to look after it. They have treated its citizens as second class. Even today, when Ulster Bank will supposedly close 30 of its 120 branches, rural post offices will be left with skeleton staff and another 500 to go because they are considered unsustainable. The Government treats rural Ireland as unsustainable. Rural Ireland is sustainable if it gets the support necessary from the Government and its agencies.

Bríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I honestly do not blame the Minister of State for being annoyed and shouting and roaring that he is not responsible.

This morning's edition of The Irish Times put it well where it states: "A complicating factor within Government is that while Mr Naughten has responsibility for the overall governance of the company, the post office network comes under the authority of the Minister for Rural Development Heather Humphreys, and the Minister of State at her department, Michael Ring". Pass the parcel is not in it. The Cabinet should think about this matter and dedicate time to considering it and stop playing games with the rural post offices because that is what is going on. There is no direct responsibility for what is happening. I mentioned earlier the plethora of committees and reports and, in the meantime, ordinary people on the ground are suffering. Never mind the Minister, Deputy Heather Humphrey's grand opening of her rural development scheme, with €12 million for 600 towns and villages. That is great. It is an average of €20,000 for each of them, but while she is doing that the Government is winding down the delivery of services to rural Ireland and no Minister is taking responsibility for it. There must be an urgent discussion at Cabinet and some person has to be the fall guy for what is going on here.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will finish reading the last two page of my speech as it might explain my role. One reason I established the post office hub working group last year was to identify potential models under which the post offices could provide additional services in this new operating environment and act as economic and social hubs in rural areas. The group has finalised its report, which I am bringing to Government shortly. Arising from the work of the group, I believe there is scope for a shared value model of post office, which would see local post offices act a multi-purpose space for the community.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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They will not be there.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy, please desist. Continue, Minister.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is an approach that has proved successful in other jurisdictions. I would like to see a number of pilot projects launched by An Post as soon as possible in order to test the concept ahead of a much wider roll-out of the model, if it proves successful. My officials are also working with the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government to examine the potential for motor tax to be offered through the post office network, and their work is almost complete.

A fundamental element of financial sustainability for the post office network will be the increased availability of financial services in branches. To this end, I very much welcome the stated intention of An Post to launch a payment account in the near future. My Department is also willing to continue to work with An Post and the Irish Postmasters Union, which were both members of the post office hub working group that I established. I was given the role in government to establish that and I did establish it. I am making recommendations to Government and the person who has responsibility for this is the Minister, Deputy Naughten. I do not have responsibility for it.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The Minister of State is washing his hands of it now.

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ó Cuív spoke about responsibility. He knows about the difference in terms of dealing with semi-State companies and if the Government was to interfere in a semi-State company, he would be the very first one, along with Deputy Mattie McGrath, who would be shouting and roaring telling us what we were doing was wrong.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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The Minister of State is washing his hands of it. He should use some soap.

Éamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State is absolutely wrong. I always believed that-----

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Deputies. I am moving on to the next Topical Issue.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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Why does the Minister of State not wash his hands of it altogether on the way out?

Michael Ring (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should go and talk to his man.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Okay gentlemen, thank you. Please leave the Chamber quietly and act like grown ups.