Dáil debates

Tuesday, 28 February 2017

3:40 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the progress made and outcomes from the all-island civil dialogue on Brexit. [8420/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach his latest update on Brexit following the Dublin Castle event on 18 February 2017. [8466/17]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the plenary session of the all-island civic dialogue held in Dublin Castle on 17 February 2017. [9987/17]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the outcomes of the all-island civic dialogue on Brexit. [10044/17]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 4, inclusive, together.

I hosted the second plenary meeting of the all-island civic dialogue on Brexit with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Charles Flanagan, in Dublin Castle on Friday 17 February. The event built on the 14 all-island sectoral dialogue events, which were hosted by Ministers across the country, that have taken place since the first plenary in November.

More than 1,100 delegates have participated in the sectoral dialogues, enabling the Government to have one of the widest possible conversations on the implications of Brexit for this island, North and South. The sectoral dialogues covered the following issues: education; agrifood; transport and logistics; tourism and hospitality; children and young people; jobs, enterprise and innovation; energy; heritage, culture and rural Ireland; pensions, social welfare rights and social insurance; human rights and the Good Friday Agreement; and seafood and agriculture and forestry.

We have captured the key issues raised at all of these events and they are providing an important input to the Government's preparations for the Article 50 negotiations which will commence after the UK has triggered Article 50.

The second plenary meeting attended by over 400 representatives from across the political spectrum, industry, civic society and the public sector North and South allowed us to further develop the dialogue and to pull together the many strands that it has explored to date. It was also an opportunity to share some detail on our overall preparations for the Brexit negotiations and how we are organising and structuring ourselves around that. The plenary meeting was live streamed on the day and is available on MerrionStreet.ie.

3:50 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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There is a general welcome for the all-island civic dialogue, which has been a very useful initiative that is appreciated North and South. I would like to see what has come of it. It is important to hear the views of everybody but what action are we taking on foot of it? I have addressed both dialogues and put forward a number of simple measures we could seek from Europe to mitigate the impact in advance on our business, in particular. Among them is allowing expenditure under the European Globalisation Fund to support upskilling and reskilling in areas we know are under pressure. The Taoiseach said that the Government will request EU backing for measures to support business along with particular EU financial measures. Another issue will be the utilisation of structural and cohesion funding, which we have not received up to now but which should be specifically targeted at areas that will be impacted by the UK's withdrawal. The Taoiseach met the Vice-President of the European Commission, Frans Timmermans, when he was here. His message to me was very simple, namely, that Ireland should have specific "asks" that should be made early. What specific asks has the Government made of the European Commission to this point to mitigate the impact we know is happening now or will happen imminently to industry and employment as a result of Brexit?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What we have tried to do here is to take all the issues that were raised and put them in the different sectors to which they apply. There were some very interesting observations made at the two all-island fora. I thank Deputy Howlin for his attendance and contribution. It is important to note that based on a pretty detailed analysis of the impact of Brexit to date on SMEs, on which we had a presentation yesterday, 49% of participants said it had no impact on their business, 13% said that it had a significant impact, 24% said it had some impact and 15% said it had a minimal impact. However, the analysis of what would happen in 18 months time revealed that 17% said it would have a significant impact, 26% said it would have no impact, 13% said it would have a minimal impact and 44% said it would have some impact. In respect of the package of measures being put together by Government, including access to lower interest and longer term funding, it is not a case of having a quantity of money to give to firms. What is needed is a package of measures that will deal with the various sectors, the nature of the industry and the issue that will arise in terms of what they are exporting and selling. Clearly, none of us yet knows what the British Government will say in its letter of intent to leave. It concerns the issue about trade and potential tariffs because therein lies the analysis that Ireland must carry out and the options we must take. We have done a vast amount of work. The Deputy received his own briefing recently. We are still unclear as to the nature of the relationship the UK will have with the EU. We understand the Government wants to be as close as possible to the existing relationship but if one drops the Single Market and has a different association with the customs union, one is in a very different position. We need clarity on that.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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One of the strongest messages participants in the dialogue conveyed is that there is an enormous amount of concern, fear and anxiety and that there have been many questions but not too many answers to those questions. The Taoiseach is aware that the statement from London yesterday that restrictions will be applied to all arriving in Great Britain after a certain date next month shows that the British are much further advanced in detailing new barriers than they are in proposing ways of limiting their impact. It appears that assurances concerning the common travel area are secondary to the eurosceptic-driven agenda to limit EU immigration. Have we requested any clarification from the British about how this new policy will impact on the common travel area commitment? Is it now the case that we must negotiate an exemption from a restriction rather than having the restriction based on accepting the common travel area?

Another consistent problem, which was raised in the dialogue, is that the lack of some sort of special economic zone or free trade zone status for Northern Ireland and at least a number of Border counties will cause a dramatic disruption to supply chains and supply lines North and South. This is distinct from the much broader concept of special status for Northern Ireland, which the British Government has not supported. It has refused to seek it for Northern Ireland and Scotland. Has the Taoiseach raised the issue of a special economic zone with the negotiating team in Brussels? I agree with Deputy Howlin that there is a sense of a lack of what our agenda is and what our statement of objectives are. We have the broad principles but what about the specifics?

What was clear from the Northern Ireland panel, particularly those representing civil dialogue in Northern Ireland, was the complete absence of a coherent voice from Northern Ireland at the table. The recent calling of an election and the collapsing of the institutions starkly illustrated the void in terms of someone speaking up with a coherent voice on behalf of Northern Ireland in the ensuing discussions that are to take place. That was very evident coming out of the dialogue last Friday.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy asked a valid question. What is the result we want for our citizens? What we want is the best result for our citizens in terms of our economy, their jobs, their prospects in terms of the common travel area, the peace process and our place in Europe. It is the central issue. When unemployment is down to 6.6% today, which is the best in nine years and quite astonishing in a two-year period, we want to be able to maintain that and keep it moving in the right direction. I have put forward the proposition to the President of the European Commission, who I met last week, and the Belgian Prime Minister. This week, I hope to meet Donald Tusk, President of the European Council, and Michel Barnier in respect of his task force. There was a meeting with Italian officials yesterday. We put forward the proposition that until we know what it is that the British Government is looking for in terms of its trading situation, we are not having a return to the Border of the past. I listened to Lord Hain putting down amendments to the Bill in the House of Lords yesterday. He said that a return to that kind of Border would have serious consequences North and South. The British and Irish Governments are both agreed on that. The Deputy rightly highlights restrictions on other European nationals coming to Great Britain after a certain date. That is where the advantage lies with Ireland in terms of the Single Market and the opportunity to have that churn of talent coming here. Europe has made it perfectly clear that there will be no cherry-picking of issues that arise here. Europe has not been in a position to respond yet until the trigger is pulled in respect of Article 50. This is a letter from the British Government stating that it is now withdrawing and setting out its position. We have all our options covered here. The Deputy can obtain the most up-to-date briefing any time he wants.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The civic dialogue at Dublin Castle was clearly very successful. I believe that reflects the significant concern within communities, business and politics about the likely damage to the entire island that Brexit will cause.

In that regard, in relation to the INTERREG and PEACE programmes, I ask can the Taoiseach advise the Dáil on the Government's approach to these EU funding programmes, in particular those that have a cross-Border remit. What impact will the triggering of Article 50 have on these programmes and have any decisions been taken about funding deadlines? What contingency plans has the Government put in place and what agreements, if any, have been made with the EU to protect cross-Border funding? Finally, can we have clarity from the Taoiseach - it is an issue I have already raised here on the floor in the past week - on the contingency plans for future customs posts and checkpoints in the context of the worst case scenario presenting? Are sites being identified, as has been reported? Is there a plan for the numbers and locations of such posts, and what of the hundreds of roads that crisscross the Border, so many of which, as I knew only too well as a Border resident, were closed and cratered by the British not that many years ago?

4:00 pm

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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I am conscious that we have only two and a half minutes left. Is it agreed that we take two minutes off the next set of questions to allow Deputy Boyd Barrett contribute? Agreed.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We do not want to go back there. Deputy Ó Caoláin will know about it only too well. While the independent Revenue Commissioners and customs officials who know how to operate borders have been writing and talking about this, the political challenge here is not to return to that kind of Border. We will not return to that kind of Border. I have made that perfectly clear to the British Government. We are not having those customs posts along the Border at different locations. There is no direction from Government for officials to go looking at sites for the possibility that one will have need of large car parks or sites for lorries etc. We are not going back there because it brings with it sectarian violence, as Deputy Ó Caoláin will know only too well. This is not a technological issue. It is a political issue. This has arisen because of the vote of people of the United Kingdom, even though Northern Ireland voted to stay. We are not going to have that kind of Border and that is my starting point. I will not stand or sign for anything to do with a return to that kind of Border of the past.

In respect of the funds Deputy Ó Caoláin mentions, we have got a particular set of circumstances here where there are INTERREG funds and PEACE funds, which are very necessary in respect of the peace walls that still apply in areas in Northern Ireland, and we want that to continue. I put to the taskforce already that one might be able to have an all-island solution in a number of areas such as animal health, including foot and mouth disease and BSE, water and energy, but these are issues on which nobody can yet answer the question of what is it that we will have until such time as we have clarity from the UK as to the trading relationship that it will have. That is the key to all of this. We are ready with a range of options here but we are not going back to that kind of Border of the past.

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach will have an opportunity to come in after.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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First, I agree with the Taoiseach on one matter. We need to maintain a robust stance that there should be no return to the Border between North and South. I might underline that point for our colleagues in Sinn Féin, who seem to dispute People Before Profit's absolute commitment to that. We believe there should be absolutely resistance at any attempt to reimpose a border between North and South.

Is it not the case that the Brexit phenomena and Donald Trump's ascension to power and the policies associated with it highlight the need for an existential choice for this country, and indeed for many other countries, in terms of whether we join in the turbo-charged race to the bottom that Trump and the right wing of the Tory party are leading in terms of reducing corporation tax which so far both the Government and Fianna Fáil, and now even Sinn Féin in the North, supports; that it is a disastrous model the most extreme expression of which is President Trump which will have a disastrous consequence for the economy; and that we need to reject that model and set out clearly that we are in favour of a more sustainable and fairer economy where the multinational corporations pay their fair share of tax so we have enough to create jobs and provide public services and strategic investment? Do Brexit and Trump not highlight the need to break from that race to the bottom, if we are to have a sustainable economy?

Photo of Eugene MurphyEugene Murphy (Roscommon-Galway, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach, in a minute and a half, if he can.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We are not changing our corporation tax rate. We have had this as the cornerstone of foreign direct investment policy in Ireland for many years. It has never moved up or down, or across any region or sector. It is 12.5%. We abolished the double Irish because of reputational perception of damage, we abolished the stateless concept and we have introduced the first OECD fully compliant knowledge box at 6.25%. President Trump is to address a joint sitting of the Houses of Congress this evening and the indications are that his speech will be quite positive.

In every country in the European Union, as Deputy Boyd Barrett will be aware, taxation is a matter of national competence. As an island, we set our corporate tax rate many years ago. I am glad to see that the line of investment continues to be strong. Only the week before last, 1,100 jobs with multinational companies, both here in Dublin and just outside, were announced and we want that to continue. The level of interest being expressed from Great Britain in Ireland, among other countries that are competing for business, is strong. We have connectivity here which is the second busiest route in the world. Ours is an English-speaking, common law system. It is the same kind of environment but there is also access to the Single Market and an opportunity for businesses that wants to be in the European Union to be located here in Ireland, either in or outside Dublin.

I take Deputy Boyd Barrett's point but we are not in a race to the bottom. We have set our standard. Everybody knows it, and that is why they are here. When I asked a chief executive last week situated in Cork, his answer was geography, culture and personality, in terms of the fit for that industry, and it had nothing to do with tax.