Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

34. To ask the Minister for Social Protection the number of persons of 65 years of age who are in receipt of jobseeker's allowance and jobseeker's benefit; the steps being taken to resolve the issue of these persons who, on retirement, are required to sign up for jobseeker's allowance or jobseeker's benefit before they receive the State pension; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [8453/17]

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Could the Minister clarify how many men and women have been forced onto jobseeker's benefit having been forced out of employment at age 65? The question is very specific but it has more general implications regarding circumstances where these individuals have worked all their lives and are forced to retire at 65, go down to what is known as the dole office and sign on for jobseeker's benefit. Can the Minister clarify the steps he is taking to rectify that situation?

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The total number of 65 year olds currently in receipt of jobseeker's allowance is 2,583, a further 2,635 are in receipt of jobseeker's benefit and 3,193 were signing on for jobseeker's credits at the end of January 2017.

There is no statutory retirement age in the State, and the age at which employees retire is a matter for the contract of employment between them and their employers. There is no legal requirement that people cease working. They are free to work into their 70s and many do. The core answer to the Deputy's question is zero. Some, however, are required by their contracts to retire from that particular employment. Where people exit the workforce before reaching State pension age they may apply for either the jobseeker's benefit or jobseeker's allowance. Jobseeker's payments are paid to eligible jobseekers aged between 18 and 66 years and all recipients of a jobseeker's payment are subject to the rules of the scheme.

People in receipt of a jobseeker's payment must engage with my Department's activation measures and can face sanctions if they fail to do so.

However, from January 2014 these criteria were eased for people aged 62 and over. They are still able to voluntarily avail of an array of supports, which are available from my Department if they wish to return to work, training or education. Furthermore, the majority of these individuals will have to register with their local office only once a year and their payments will be paid directly into their bank accounts.

People claiming jobseeker's benefit from a date after their sixty-fifth birthdays continue to be eligible for that payment until reaching State pension age. While the State pension age is currently 66, this approach will continue to extend their entitlement when the pension age rises to 67, and indeed a further year when it rises to 68 in 2028.

These provisions have enabled these individuals to ease their transition into one of the jobseeker's schemes until they become eligible for a State pension on turning 66.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for clarifying the matter. I can see from his previous replies that he has been consistent in his clarifications. I ask him to comment on the treatment of men and women who have worked all their lives in private and public bodies and are being forced to retire even though they do not want to do so. They have to go down to the dole office to sign on. While I welcome the Minister's statement that they will have to sign on just once and will not face any sanction, he is ignoring the contradiction in this respect. These people do not want to leave work. The Government has a role in introducing policy and legislation. Many countries, including the United States and New Zealand, have decided to ban mandatory retirement. The Government is asking workers who do not want to leave their jobs to do so. In an earlier response, the Minister referred to work as the way out of poverty, but in this case he is forcing people into jobseeker's allowance or jobseeker's benefit with reduced payments. If they worked, they would have more money and would pay more back into the economy. Instead, they are being forced into jobseeker's payments. This is the complete opposite of what the Minister spoke about in response to a previous question.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I reiterate that there is no mandatory retirement age in Ireland. Other countries have had a mandatory retirement age and have abolished it. Some people are required to retire from particular jobs at a certain age. The Deputy is right when she says that some of them do not want to do so. Quite frankly, I do not think they should have to. Many people in their 60s who have lots of skills and experience would be happy to work until they are in their 70s. They should be allowed to do so.

What is happening about it? This is one of the matters being discussed by the Government and the trade unions. The retirement rules that are in place for public sector employment can be changed by statute. This is one of the items under discussion between the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, and the public sector unions as part of the review of the Lansdowne Road agreement. The Workplace Relations Commission is developing a code of conduct for people who are in this situation in the private sector. Essentially, it is moving towards a position in which employers would have to justify a retirement age. It could not be an arbitrary age; it would have to be justified. That code of conduct would be statutory and therefore legally binding.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I welcome the Minister's clarification. Some progress is being made by looking at the retirement provisions in both categories. The current position makes an absolute nonsense of the Government's policies on positive ageing, smarter ageing and the employment of older people. Age Action Ireland has responded to all of this in a very rational document, in which it points out the total incoherence between one Government policy and another. I welcome the progress that is being made in this regard, according to the Minister. I would like to know what timeframe is envisaged for a change to be made. Some of the workers at Galway-Mayo Institute of Technology, which is a public body, have to leave their jobs at the age of 65 and go down to the dole office. It is not acceptable. It encourages the use of deceitful language by Government bodies. Like all jobseekers who receive State assistance, people in this category have to be actively seeking work. However, the Minister has said the State will not go too heavy on this cohort. There is no legal basis for doing that. This means the treatment of one cohort of people in receipt of jobseeker's assistance differs from the treatment of another cohort receiving the same payment. The Minister needs to look at the matter on this basis.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Neither issue is directly under my remit. Public sector employment is a matter for the Minister, Deputy Donohoe. Employment law and employment equality law are matters for the Minister, Deputy Mitchell O'Connor, and the Tánaiste, Deputy Fitzgerald. We are all part of the same Government. We need to join this up better. I think this matter should have been dealt with when the State pension age was increased to 66. We are changing the rules of public sector employment law now, after previously having changed the social welfare rules. I accept the criticism that they should have been changed at the same time. I am told that the Workplace Relations Commission will have completed the code of conduct in a matter of weeks or months. I do not know when the public sector unions and the Government will come to an agreement on the public sector side. I imagine it will be done when the Lansdowne Road agreement is up for renegotiation later this year. It is subject to agreement. Other knock-on effects need to be borne in mind. If people work later and longer, there will be fewer job opportunities for new entrants and younger people and there will be fewer promotional opportunities.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not accurate.

John Brady (Wicklow, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is not factually correct.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Obviously, it is correct. The Deputies should think about it logically.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have thought about it logically.

Leo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If somebody stays in a senior post in a school or a hospital for an additional five years, somebody else will have to wait longer to replace him or her. I do not think that matters. We do not disagree on this. I do not think people should be required by contract or by law to retire at 65. The age of 65 is not old anymore and it is a long time since it was. We need to get to grips with this issue this year.