Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Last Wednesday evening I met the Tánaiste in a quiet area of this House to tell her that I wanted the terms of reference of the proposed commission of investigation extended. I told her that I had become aware, from speaking to my party leader Deputy Micheál Martin, who had spoken to Sergeant McCabe, that Sergeant McCabe had informed him that there would be a "Prime Time" programme broadcast on Thursday evening which would contain a story about a Tusla file that contained a false allegation of sexual abuse against Sergeant McCabe. I told the Tánaiste that paragraph B of the terms of reference needed to be extended to cover that. The Tánaiste agrees that I asked her to extend the terms of reference. She also agrees that I asked her to extend the terms of reference because of a forthcoming "Prime Time" programme. However, she denies that I told her about any Tusla file contained in that programme. If she is correct, why did she agree to consider my amendments, as she did, without asking me what the "Prime Time" programme was about?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I got a phone call from Deputy O'Callaghan at about 6.30 p.m. last Wednesday. He asked me if I would meet him and I left the parliamentary party meeting and went to meet him. We had a discussion for about 12 minutes. Deputy O'Callaghan informed me that there was a "Prime Time" programme the next evening. He used the word "documentary" in relation to Maurice McCabe and the allegations. He said the programme would cover the smear campaign allegations that had been made against Sergeant McCabe and he said to me that I needed to look at the terms of reference because if they did not cover what emerged on the "Prime Time" programme that would not be a good place to be in and it would leave "egg on our face" in terms of the Dáil and the work we are doing. He said to me that he wanted to make sure that the allegation of a smear campaign against Sergeant McCabe was covered and whether it had been carried out by the Garda Commissioner and the previous Garda Commissioner. I said to him that they were already covered in the terms of reference and the vast majority of our conversation was about the detail of the amendments and how they needed to be changed because the Deputy was concerned that the reference in relation to Superintendent Taylor was too restrictive and would mean that there was not a proper examination of the allegations. For that reason, I agreed to consider how we would extend the terms of reference to make it absolutely clear that this could be covered. He also asked that Ministers would be included and I said there was no reason not to include them. I went away to do some work on the changes to the terms of reference. At no time did Deputy O'Callaghan mention Tusla, and if he had, or if he had said to me he wanted a particular reference in that regard I would have included it. It would have been to my advantage to include it if I had been told about it, and if he had made it clear to me that Tusla should be included because "Prime Time" was covering it, I would have included it.

It would have been totally to my advantage to come back to the Dáil and insert Tusla. Deputy O'Callaghan made no mention the next day about Tusla when he made his speech.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There are four minutes left so I suggest that the Deputy be as crisp as possible to get his answers.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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I disagree with the Tánaiste. I referred to Tusla in our conversation. What the Tánaiste has said in her statement is that she was prepared to seek the amendment of important terms of reference based upon a forthcoming television programme I was telling her about. At no stage is she saying that I indicated to her what the programme was about and at no stage did she ask. Is it credible that a Minister for Justice would agree to amend terms of reference of an important commission of investigation based on upon a television programme and not ask what the programme was about?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy O'Callaghan made an extremely strong case that he felt the way the terms of reference were formulated as the judge presented them - because they were the judge's words - regarding the allegation of a smear campaign in Superintendent Taylor's protected disclosure was too narrow. The Deputy spent most of the time talking to me about how it circumscribed the investigation too much and ought to be broader. He made his case entirely on the fact that the terms of reference were too narrow, not on the "Prime Time" programme. He made his case on the basis that the way the judge had written them made them too circumscribed. I accepted in full the Deputy's bona fides on it. He wanted the terms of reference changed so that there was no doubt whatsoever that all of those allegations could be investigated and I responded on that basis. What was in or not in the programme was not the central point. It was that the Deputy wanted clarity in respect of the allegations and that they would be fully investigated and would not be circumscribed by reference to Superintendent Taylor. That was the main point of the discussion.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I suggest that Deputy O'Callaghan combines his two questions into one because there are only two minutes left.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste is correct in stating that most of our discussion was about paragraph (b) and I emphasised to her that it was too limited in terms of how it referred to Superintendent Taylor's communications with the media and that it needed to be broader. However, I commenced the conversation with her by telling about the forthcoming programme which was in respect of a Tusla file. My final question for her is this. After her discussion with me, who did she contact and what did she say to them?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The first point I would make to Deputy O'Callaghan is that if he was so concerned about Tusla being included in the terms of reference, why did he not raise it himself? Why did he not raise it in his speech? I came in here last Thursday and asked for statements so I could take on board the point of view of everybody here. I was completely flexible in terms of what I wanted to include in terms of investigating it and getting at the truth. After Deputy O'Callaghan spoke to me, I contacted the Attorney General, asked her about changing the terms of reference, told her what Deputy O'Callaghan's formulation was and asked her whether it was legally sound and whether it was the way we should proceed. I had a further discussion with Deputy O'Callaghan about how it should be changed. Deputy O'Callaghan reiterated the points made here the next day but he never mentioned Tusla. Other people mentioned different things they wanted included. Deputy O'Callaghan did not mention Tusla. I had a conversation with him primarily about making sure that the terms of reference included Government Ministers, that they included great clarity and that the commission would investigate the allegations fully.

Jim O'Callaghan (Dublin Bay South, Fianna Fail)
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Were any of the Tánaiste's officials or Government officials aware of the Tusla allegation prior to the programme being broadcast on Thursday evening?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I was not aware of what was in the Tusla file prior to the programme being broadcast and neither were my officials. Nobody had brought it to my attention.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We now move to Sinn Féin, which has eight minutes. What way do its Members propose to proceed?

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Tá mé ag roinnt ama le Teachtaí eile.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Adams might indicate the Deputies to which he is referring.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Deputies Mary Lou McDonald, Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire and Jonathan O'Brien. The purpose of this evening's proceedings was for Ministers to set out what they knew and when they knew about the shameful campaign against Maurice McCabe. Can we start the time again? The Taoiseach was engaged in a conversation. My question is for him. I would like him to hear the question I am putting to him.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We will give Deputy Adams 20 seconds of injury time.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The purpose of this evening's proceedings was for Ministers to set out what they knew and when they knew about the shameful campaign against Maurice McCabe. The Taoiseach has not done this. I have asked him repeatedly to tell the Dáil when he became aware of the false child abuse allegations against Maurice McCabe. Perhaps it was years ago. We do not know. He has ignored my questions, stonewalled and refused to answer. So far, the Taoiseach has given three different versions in as many days about what he says the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs told him. For her part, the Minister is very clear about this, what the Taoiseach said to her and what her official told an official in the Department of the Taoiseach. While giving his contradictory versions, the Taoiseach has refused to say when he first became aware of the false allegation of child abuse against Garda McCabe. I would like to put that question directly to the Taoiseach now. When did he first become aware of this false allegation?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have answered this before. I do not deal in rumours, hearsay or allegations. Deputy Adams's question is irrelevant to the central issue here - how to define and determine the truth of a central issue, namely, senior gardaí carrying out a deliberate smear campaign against Sergeant McCabe and his family.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Jonathan O'Brien. To which Minister is he addressing his question?

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is addressed to the Taoiseach initially. In her speech, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs stated that she spoke to the Taoiseach prior to last week's Cabinet meeting, which was after her meeting with Sergeant McCabe. She told the Taoiseach that she had discussed false allegations of sexual abuse against Sergeant McCabe that were made to Tusla. The Taoiseach stated that this would be covered by the commission of investigation. First, did the Taoiseach say that? Second, how was he aware that it would covered by the commission of investigation when the very Minister tasked with drafting the terms of reference for the commission of investigation claims she was not even aware of the existence of a Tusla file?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Government was considering the setting up of a commission of investigation arising from two protected disclosures dealing with matters of sexual allegations. The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is the Minister responsible for Tusla. My assumption was that the terms of reference would cover that. That was clarified by the judge appointed at the time to conduct the commission of investigation.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs for clarifying the fact that she did in fact brief the Taoiseach as regards the Tusla file in advance of the Cabinet meeting. There was no confidentiality or sensitivity around that. Maurice McCabe came to see the Minister not to discuss an allegation or a live investigation but to complain about a false allegation. He also made the Minister aware that he had been talking to the media and that a "Prime Time" programme would be broadcast. The Taoiseach repeatedly refused to say when he first learned of allegations of a sexual offence made against Maurice McCabe. Let me help him. It was reported in theIrish Independenton 12 April 2014 that Deputy Micheál Martin met with the woman alleging sexual assault or abuse by a serving Garda. On 15 April, the same newspaper reported that the alleged victim wished to meet with Deputy Micheál Martin. On 2 May, it was reported that Deputy Micheál Martin wrote to the Taoiseach and told him about this and it was mooted in an article that the Taoiseach was going to order an investigation into this matter. The Garda about whom the woman spoke to Deputy Micheál Martin was none other than Maurice McCabe. So the Taoiseach was aware from that point. Did he instigate an investigation and why does he persist in a game of make believe that he did not know about these allegations? He knew about them going back to May 2014. Will he and Deputy Micheál Martin be witnesses at the tribunal of inquiry?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I think Deputy Micheál Martin presented a number of issues from the far side of the House about matters of importance.

That was transferred by me to the Minister for Justice and Equality. It was transferred to the independent review mechanism, which was assessed by legal opinion and all of that. It is a matter that was handled from my Department to the Department of Justice and Equality. Following all of the cases there, there was an independent review mechanism set up to deal with it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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May I correct the record?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Did Deputy Micheál Martin write to the Taoiseach and report that he had a meeting with a woman who made a complaint of sexual abuse against Garda Maurice McCabe? Yes or no? It is reported that this happened in May and that the Taoiseach was to instigate an investigation. I ask the Taoiseach to confirm this.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can I make a correction?

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I will take a point of clarification from Deputy Martin and then the Taoiseach.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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With respect-----

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Let the Taoiseach answer the question.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I will call the Taoiseach.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I want to correct the record of the House. There have been enough smear campaigns going on and undermining-----

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Enda Kenny is supposed to be the Taoiseach.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Correct the record.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I wrote to the Taoiseach. I want to make this point because it is very important.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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No it is not.

Fiona O'Loughlin (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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How do you know?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Either we live in a democracy in which we correct the record or we do not.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach is the man being asked the questions, not Deputy Martin.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputies. A point of clarification.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I want to make it clear. Whether the Deputy wants the truth or not-----

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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No, Deputy Martin wants to distort the truth.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Please, Deputies. A point of clarification.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a matter of record that I sent a dossier of complaints that Maurice McCabe sent to me when I met him about Garda malpractice in Bailieborough at that time.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, please. Subsequent to me sending the dossier, an individual approached me following articles in a newspaper about an allegation of sexual abuse that was dealt with by the DPP back in 2006 with regard to a case from 1997 or 1998. The alleged victim at the time said to me that the DPP had made a decision on it but was anxious that the Guerin investigation would cover the manner in which the case was handled. The contention was that it was because it was a Garda sergeant-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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And it was Maurice McCabe?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Maurice McCabe was made aware of this at the time because I made him aware of it. He was fully anxious that it be dealt with by the Guerin investigation. He spoke to Mr. Guerin about it as well-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you. The clock has stopped.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and made the background very clear. I believe it is important-----

Seán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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It is all coming back now.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----that we get the light and the truth out of all of this.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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There will be other opportunities to speak.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I asked the Taoiseach to ask Mr. Guerin to include it. He decided not to.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I call the Taoiseach. The clock starts again.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The letter Deputy McDonald refers to was a letter in respect of how a case that had been dismissed by the DPP had been handled by the Garda. It has nothing to do with the current exposés on the "Prime Time" programme or the so-called Tusla file. The letter was a complaint about how the process and the procedure was handled. That case had already been previously dismissed by the DPP.

Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire (Cork South Central, Sinn Fein)
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My question is directed to the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. It is clear that there was error upon error and failure upon error with regard to the child protection and Tusla handling of the file relating to Sergeant McCabe. As regards the involvement of the HSE counsellor, the reason the counsellor was in contact with the Garda and who contacted who, it is all contrary to children first processes. How could a file of such seriousness be treated as casually as to allow copying and pasting? Most of all, how could a file exist on alleged child abuse and not be picked up for several years? If this file was not a false accusation, why was there no review, no oversight and no investigation? How could it happen that it was not followed up and was allowed to sit there?

It is clear that normal procedures were not followed. That raises questions about the handling of child protection by Tusla on a systematic basis. There have been examples of this before. A June 2016 report found 822 unacknowledged Garda notifications of alleged abuse from Tusla in the midlands region. Mr. Fred McBride has refuted that he would knowingly allow collusion with the gardaí. However, it happened before his watch. How can the Minister account for the facts that normal procedure was so comprehensively ignored in this instance and that the children first policy was not followed? Can Tusla disprove the charge of collusion by some of its staff and does it intend to do so?

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I thank Deputy Ó Laoghaire for those questions. I believe they are excellent and relevant questions. These are the issues that I expect will be covered in the statutory investigation that we are requesting of HIQA. The terms of reference are being drawn up. As we are having this debate, work is going on. I am going to bring those terms before the Attorney General to take a look at them. It is very important that we get those terms right and that the issues that the Deputy has identified are asked and answered. I also believe that it was extremely important to establish this, in addition to the commission of investigation or the tribunal of inquiry, because my understanding is that that is going to be focused on a particular case. The Deputy is also raising systemic questions about processes that have inflicted this extraordinary damage on this family. That would be my feeling and belief as well. Therefore, we needed another type of investigation, an independent, robust and external review to come up with the answers to the Deputy's questions.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I want to put my first question to the Taoiseach. I wish to refer to his meetings with the Minister, Deputy Zappone. I cannot understand how it could be the case that the Taoiseach could have such a flawed recollection of such significant meetings. On the radio last Sunday, the Taoiseach referred to what he "said to her", referring to the Minister, Deputy Zappone, at a meeting that never took place. How could it then be when he actually did meet the Minister, Deputy Zappone, just before the Cabinet meeting, during which he was told of the Tusla involvement in the McCabe affair, that he proceeded to forget about this meeting almost from that moment and denied it existed when he was asked about it last Sunday? Why did he not mention the Tusla piece of information to the Cabinet? Is the Taoiseach actually suggesting that he did not remember that piece of information when the terms of reference were being discussed? The Minister, Deputy Zappone, said, "I let him know that I had met with the McCabes, that we had discussed Tusla". Is it not the case that if the Minister, Deputy Zappone, had not insisted upon her version of fact, that an entirely incorrect sequencing of events would have remained on the public record subsequent to the Taoiseach's interview last Sunday?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I actually told the truth today in the House. I reflected-----

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Which time? Was it the first, second or third time?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----on many things that come my way on the average day. As I pointed out today, and as the Minister, Deputy Zappone, pointed out, her office informed my office of her intention to meet with the McCabe family. That was relayed to me. In all of the activity, I was mistaken in saying that I had actually spoken to the Minister about her meeting with the McCabes.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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She has just contradicted you.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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She did inform me just before the Cabinet meeting began that she had met with the McCabes and that they had discussed false sexual allegations against the sergeant. She did not make me aware of the existence of a file in Tusla or of any contents of that file------

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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To Tusla.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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She did not make me aware of any of the content of the discussion that she had with Sergeant McCabe or his wife.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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When was the Taoiseach first made aware of Tusla involvement in this affair and by whom?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister said that she had discussed false allegations that had been made to Tusla about Sergeant McCabe. The Cabinet was in session dealing with protected disclosures, which it is not-----

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Is the Taoiseach saying that she told him during the Cabinet meeting?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----allowed to discuss the content of. Obviously, the terms of reference had been set out for the commission of investigation by Mr. Justice Iarfhlaith O'Neill.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The Taoiseach did not answer the question. When was he first told about Tusla involvement and by whom?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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7 o’clock

As I said to the Deputy, before the Cabinet meeting, the Minister, Deputy Zappone, said that she had met with the McCabes and that the question of false allegations of sexual abuse had been made to Tusla and had been discussed by her with the McCabes.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Can I ask the Tánaiste a question? Her version of events and that of Deputy Jim O'Callaghan both cannot be true. Being able to depend on the word of the Minister for Justice is important in any jurisdiction, all the more so when discussing matters of the gravity that we are now discussing in the events of recent days. I ask the Tánaiste for complete clarity. When was the first time she heard that the Tusla agency was involved in the Maurice McCabe case? Again, from whom did she learn that?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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As I have said consistently, in terms of the facts as they emerged on the programme regarding false allegations, the first time that I heard of those details was when I went home and saw the "Prime Time" programme. I had never been briefed on a Tusla file. I did not know whether there was any Garda involvement, for example, with Tusla in regard to Maurice McCabe. I never knew there was a counsellor involved. I never knew about the set of false allegations that had been made by the counsellor to Tusla. I had no information on those facts as they emerged on the "Prime Time" programme. I had had no briefing from anyone on that because no one in my Department knew, and I had never been briefed by anybody else that these allegations were around.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Prior to the "Prime Time" programme, was the Tánaiste aware of Tusla's involvement in any other whistleblower case?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Many whistleblower cases come to my attention. I cannot investigate them myself but I have the responsibility to pass those on to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC. It has been noted publicly, and I can confirm, that in one of those cases there was a mention of Tusla and that was passed on to GSOC for investigation.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Can I ask the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs a question? In terms of the critical information she had given to the Taoiseach concerning Tusla involvement, an involvement that the Minister had vastly more knowledge of than the Taoiseach, how could it be that she did not mention that during the Cabinet discussion on the terms of reference? She is specifically entitled, under the Child and Family Agency Act of 2013, and is required under Article 28.4.2o of Bunreacht na hÉireann, to ensure that her colleagues are informed. Was the Minister advised by any departmental official to take this extraordinary course of action? In other words, was she advised to deny her Cabinet colleagues of the full knowledge when they were making such an important critical national decision?

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I will answer Deputy Howlin's last question first. No, I was not advised. I was not aware of the contents of what we would be discussing that morning regarding the response to the O'Neill report. No, I did not have any advice in that regard.

With regard to the Deputy's first question, I have already answered that. I made a decision. I discerned the information that had been shared with me by the McCabe family in that original meeting and had Tusla respond very quickly to their questions in terms of a further file and what was going on. As I said already here in the Chamber, the letter that went with that was to ask if there were any other issues they wanted to clarify. That was where I was at with them at that stage, and I decided that is where it should stay.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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When then did the Minister first see the terms of reference that were proposed for Cabinet? Were they circulated in advance of the Cabinet meeting? I refer to the terms of reference for the proposed commission of investigation.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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No, they were not.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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They were brought to Cabinet directly.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I am moving on to the Independents 4 Change whose Members have eight minutes.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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AAA-People Before Profit is next.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I have it in the other order. To be clear, I intend to limit everybody asking a question to one minute and everyone giving an answer to one minute. I will treat everybody with the same parity of esteem.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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I will take two minutes, Deputy Coppinger will take two minutes and Deputy Boyd Barrett will take four minutes.

People tuning in will be a little bemused to hear that the Taoiseach is looking for a pat on the back for telling the truth in the Dáil today and that it is some sort of event that is newsworthy. However, they have to ask themselves which version of the truth was he telling. Deputy Adams referred to three versions of the story in three days but we have had three versions of the story today. At 2.16 p.m., in answer to Deputy Micheál Martin, the Taoiseach stated that the Minister, Deputy Zappone, told him before the Cabinet meeting last Tuesday that she met with him and they discussed allegations that were false that were given to Tusla. At 2.32 p.m., the Taoiseach answered me and stated: "It is not true to say that I had any information about the existence of that prior to the Cabinet meeting in Government Buildings". That was in response to me saying that he knew about Tusla. With regard to the Minister, Deputy Zappone, not only does she state: "I told him that I met the McCabes and we discussed false allegations of sexual abuse made against Sergeant McCabe to Tusla"-----

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Thank you, Deputy. Who do you want to answer the question?

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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-----the Taoiseach responded by stating that this will be covered by the commission of investigation.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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To whom is the question aimed, Deputy?

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Is the Minister, Deputy Zappone's version-----

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy, your time is up.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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-----accurate?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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To whom is the question aimed?

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Did the Taoiseach engage in a conversation around it and therefore he was fully aware of Tusla's involvement?

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Will the Acting Chairman lighten up a little bit?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Sorry, I am in the Chair and I make my decision, as Chair. I do not need Deputy Coppinger's assistance. The Taoiseach has the floor.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, I was not aware of any of the details of the discussion the Minister, Deputy Zappone, had with the McCabe family and I was not aware of any of the details contained in the Tusla file. What the Minister did say to me was that she had met the McCabes and that they had discussed false allegations of sexual abuse that had been sent to Tusla.

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Did the Taoiseach say to her that this would be covered by the commission of investigation?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Cabinet was meeting to adopt terms of reference set out by Mr. Justice O'Neill regarding matters that clearly were of a sexual nature. The Minister, Deputy Zappone, is the Minister with responsibility for Tusla. Obviously, she had said that the discussion she had had with the McCabes, without giving me any detail, had been about false allegations of a sexual nature that had been made to Tusla.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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With regard to the wording the Minister, Deputy Zappone, used, she stated: "I told him I had met the McCabes, that we had discussed false allegations ... made against Sergeant McCabe to Tusla". She then stated: "The Taoiseach said that this would be covered by the commission of investigation". That is what she has said and it is written in black and white. Is that accurate?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Will Deputy Coppinger repeat her question?

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Did the Taoiseach tell the Minister, Deputy Zappone, that the Tusla issue would be included in the terms of reference of the commission of investigation because she says in her statement that he did? She went on to State: "During the Cabinet meeting it was my belief that Tusla would be covered by the inquiry under the terms of reference before us". She said that because the Taoiseach told her it would be covered.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I had looked at the terms of reference and I was clear in my mind that anything to do with allegations of a sexual nature would be covered by the terms of reference.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Did the Taoiseach tell her, or not, that it would be covered in the terms of reference because the Minister says he did?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Yes. I said these will be covered in the terms of reference because they were false allegations of a sexual nature but I want to make it clear again that in informing me that she had met the McCabe family, she did not tell me the detail of the discussion she had with the McCabes or of the existence of a file in Tusla and the contents of that file.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Is the Taoiseach saying that the Minister, Deputy Zappone, is telling a lie in black and white in her script tonight-----

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, I am not.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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She said that the Taoiseach assured her it would be in the terms of reference and he is saying he did not.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is incorrect. The Cabinet was considering the terms of reference as set out for the Government by Mr. Justice O'Neill. Clearly, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs has responsibility for Tusla. She informed me before the meeting that she had met with the McCabes, that questions of false allegations of a sexual nature-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Yes, the Taoiseach said that.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----that had been presented to Tusla were discussed by her. That is what she said to me. Obviously, the terms of reference dealing with those covered by Mr. Justice O'Neill would cover that, and that was actually confirmed by the Supreme Court judge, who was determined at that stage-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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Why did the Taoiseach not go on then to ensure, having told his Minister it would be in the terms of reference, that it was in the terms of reference?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It was in the terms of reference and it was-----

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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The Tusla allegations.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, the terms of reference were sufficiently flexible to cover Tusla.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, they were not.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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I have a question for the Minister for Justice and Equality. She spoke to the Minister, Deputy Zappone, about her meeting with the McCabes. She stated that all she said was, "Thank you, Katherine". She had read a full transcript from the O'Higgins commission which went into detail-----

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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No.

Ruth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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She had it in her possession, according to Maurice McCabe, so if she did not read it, there is a problem. Why did the Minister not think to ask the Minister, Deputy Zappone, who is in charge of Tusla why she was going to meet Sergeant McCabe and his family that day? Why did she not think to ask that, given that she is the Minister for Justice and Equality and it would ultimately be her responsibility to ensure this entire matter is dealt with?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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First of all, let me correct Deputy Coppinger. It would be illegal for me to read the transcripts of the O'Higgins commission. They are meant to be under lock and key for 30 years except that GSOC went to court a few weeks ago to have access to them because I had asked GSOC to investigate and the court decided it could access those records. Just be very clear, I would have no right to read the transcripts of the O'Higgins commission and I have not read them.

The Minister, Deputy Zappone, on the morning she was meeting the McCabes, phoned me and said she was having a meeting with them that afternoon. I think I said to her, "complex situation" and "thank you for letting me know". That was what I said. I respected the integrity of the process in which she was involved with them. I was working on protected disclosures which I could not speak about anyway in any detail. I could not speak to anybody about them. I was drawing up the terms of reference for the commission, and I assumed the Minister would get on with whatever work she had to do with them. I probably assumed it was a personal matter that they wanted to talk to her about, and that if it was relevant it would emerge in any further discussion at a later point. The Minister, Deputy Zappone, has also made the point she had not finished her engagement with the McCabe family.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Maurice McCabe has lifted a rock and what has appeared from underneath it does not look pleasant at all. I want to know from either the Taoiseach or Tánaiste is whether they will be led by what Maurice McCabe, the brave whistleblower, has asked for in terms of answering the questions. I note the Minister, Deputy Zappone, has responded to the questions that relate to her Department and has already sent answers to the McCabes and she is willing to further engage, but the Minister for Justice and Equality has suggested she will not respond to the questions that the McCabes believe can be answered even before a tribunal of inquiry is established. Why is the Minister taking a different line from the Minister, Deputy Zappone?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Let me clarify this. With regard to Sergeant Maurice McCabe and the various issues he has unearthed, I must agree with the Deputy. I have already spoken in the Dáil about the changes he has brought about, for example, with regard to penalty points and the issues that arose subsequent to the O'Higgins commission where a huge amount of action has followed given the points he raised regarding Garda management of investigation of crime.

With regard to the question about the legality of answering the questions, I believe any of us with information should provide answers where we can, but I have just made the point there is an interaction with setting up a tribunal of inquiry, and if the same issues are about to be investigated by the tribunal of inquiry then we have to be sure we are fair to everybody. Otherwise we could scupper the inquiry by showing we were dealing more favourably with one party to the inquiry than the other. This is the legal advice I have at this stage. In so far as we can answer any of the six questions put forward by Sergeant Maurice McCabe, and already the Ministers, Deputies Harris and Zappone, have said they would be in a position to answer some of those questions, of course I want to see it done. Just be conscious we have to be aware we have to be fair to all parties, otherwise one party could go to court and say it was not fair procedure.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I have another question.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I will bring the Deputy back in when we have free-flowing questions.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I have one more question.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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No, the eight minutes have gone for the Deputy's group.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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My first question is to the Minister, Deputy Zappone. I commend her on her contribution. It struck me as being honest. Rian Counselling made a report on 9 August 2013, which turned out to be the false report. It rectified the matter, or amended it, on 14 May 2014. Does the Minister know the personnel involved on both ends on each occasion in August 2013 and May 2014? Is she aware of the personnel from Rian Counselling? Is she aware of the personnel from Tusla who were dealing with the case?

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I have information. I am sorry, Deputy, but I am just trying to recall absolutely clearly information that went back and forth that may have had initials as distinct from full names of the people about whom the Deputy is asking. I can check that in the context of this debate. I am trying to recall that now, with all the information and the back and forth I have had in terms of what the McCabes spoke about with me in coming to me that day and the subsequent report I requested from Tusla.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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From the information the Minister can recall, is there any indication there may have been any interference on the part of An Garda Síochána in any way, as far as she knows?

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I do not have that explicit information.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I will ask the Minister for Justice and Equality the same question. Is she aware of any potential interference on the part of An Garda Síochána on either end of those two different correspondences? We are speaking about 9 August 2013, when a report was made to Tusla which made the false allegation about Maurice McCabe, and then the amended report on 14 May 2014. My question is whether the Minister is aware of any possible Garda Síochána interference on either end of these two correspondences?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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No, I am not aware of that. Since yesterday I have a copy of the HSE file, but I am not aware of any because I do not have any of that information. I have nothing in relation to that because, as I said, I did not know about the false allegation. I did not know a referral had been made like that to Tusla. I had no information on that or any of the interactions around it because I did not know about it. I was never briefed on it and it was never brought to my attention, for example, by any member of An Garda Síochána or at any briefing I was at. The answer is I do not have the information the Deputy is asking about. I do not have any information that happened.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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It is not clear whether the Minister does not have the information because she has not read the file yet or because that information is not contained in it. She might answer that with my next question. I want to put on the record that the Minister, Deputy Zappone, has responded efficiently, sensitively and appropriately. I am not just saying that as my opinion, I have seen the evidence that supports it was an adequate response when she was made aware of those allegations. Her account today has been imminently believable, and I must put it to the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste that their accounts have not been the same.

The account of the Taoiseach and Tánaiste has not been as full or as humble. They have tried to hide behind the Tusla files, as if this is a get out of jail card. All of us, including the Taoiseach and Tánaiste, know from the protected disclosure of Dave Taylor that false allegations of child sex abuse were being made against Maurice McCabe. Do the Taoiseach and Tánaiste expect us to believe that when Deputy Zappone told them she was meeting the McCabes they thought it might have been on a personal matter and not something they should be interested in?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The protected disclosures received by the Minister for Justice and Equality are not public information. No member of the Cabinet other than the Minister had access to those files. When they were referred to Mr. Justice O'Neill he considered them and made his recommendation for a commission of investigation, giving the suggested terms of reference.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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Having had access to the information in the protected disclosure, the Minister was aware that a false allegation of child abuse was made against Maurice McCabe. Dave Taylor's allegation was that he had been instructed to spread word to journalists. This was included in the terms of reference and the criminal misconduct could have been investigated but now the Taoiseach tells us that no one had any knowledge about it. It is just not credible and there is a huge problem if we cannot believe the word of the Minister for Justice and Equality.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I am not hiding behind anything but telling the Deputy the facts. I had a protected disclosure. The Deputy seems to know what is in that protected disclosure.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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The Minister does. She has read it.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy says it is about child sexual abuse allegations but the protected disclosure in the terms of reference was to do with a smear campaign. When I say I had no information or briefing, I am not hiding behind any one file. The allegations are not in any file I hold, or in anything of which I was aware. Deputy Wallace asked me about An Garda Síochána but I have no information about that. The file to which I refer is the file which Deputy Zappone has, giving details of the counselling service and interactions relating to that.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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If the allegation was about a smear campaign, why did the terms of reference include an allegation of criminal misconduct? If that criminal misconduct was not alleged child sexual abuse, the Minister might tell us what it is.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The judge decided that any allegation of criminal misconduct made against sergeant McCabe should be included in the terms of reference. It would cover sexual allegations.

Clare Daly (Dublin Fingal, Independent)
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The Minister just said there was no allegation other than the one about the smear campaign.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Please do not talk over the Minister.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy misunderstands me and is misrepresenting what I am saying.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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That is what the Minister said.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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It is now the turn of the Rural Independent Group, who have eight minutes. I will limit each question and response to a minute.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I am glad the Business Committee agreed to this question and answer session as it is vitally important. Did any of the Ministers have any intent to mislead the House during this saga? Might they have inadvertently done so at any point?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have corrected my mistaken comment in regard to the Minister, Deputy Zappone's meeting with Sergeant McCabe.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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What I said in the Dáil last week was absolutely accurate and that is plain to anyone who reads the record of the House. What reason would I have to mislead the House in this matter? What would I be trying to hide? I freely admit that I was scrupulous in referring to Sergeant McCabe at all times, lest I put anything on the record of the House that might be damaging to him. In formulating his terms of reference the judge spoke about criminal allegations so I was scrupulous not to put lurid details on the record and was very careful in the way I referred to issues. I have never, ever misled the Dáil and I did not mislead the Dáil last Thursday.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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This is the first time I have spoken on this issue in the Dáil. I do not believe I have misled the Dáil. As I said in response to Deputy Wallace earlier, certain information is available but it is not appropriate to bring the names of those concerned to the Dáil.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I have never been asked to address the Dáil on this matter before and only became aware of information relating to this on Friday evening, receiving the first report at midnight on Saturday, 11 February. I have provided the Dáil with all the information I have available to me.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary, Independent)
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I believe the return of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Katherine Zappone, was welcome and brought a lot of clarity. It is refreshing and I compliment her on it. I accept the answers to my questions from the Ministers.

Deputy Zappone used words like "vile" and "graphic" and said false information was put out there by Tusla. Can the Taoiseach and Ministers say whether they have faith in Tusla and in its CEO? Do they have full confidence in Tusla? I certainly do not. I have raised many issues in this House in this regard and I opposed the children's referendum. People get in touch with me on a weekly basis about horrific cases and the answer I always get is that Tusla will investigate this matter itself. It is farcical in the extreme for a relatively new organisation to investigate itself. I was told there was a grandparent rule meaning a child was not allowed to be cared for by grandparents. That has been changed now but this rule was made up by the agency itself - it was not in the Act. Tusla has tried to account for this as a copy and paste mistake but it is far from it. There are many, many mistakes and they are being covered up.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has ordered a root and branch review of the mechanics of the way Tusla does its business. Clearly, in the outline in the programme on the treatment of Sergeant McCabe, this was incompetence on a major scale. There are requirements in law for Tusla to assess every case that comes before it, but to do so with accountability and responsibility in an expeditious and fair manner. Clearly, this particular issue was not dealt with in accordance with the standards one would expect and that is why the Minister and the Minister for Health will see to it that there is a root and branch examination of the mechanics of the way Tusla does its business.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Anybody who has looked at the details of this case and how it was handled by Tusla would be very concerned - absolutely very concerned. It is a relatively new organisation, which was set up to get more focus on child sexual abuse cases and on all the issues relating to children in care, in foster care, adoptions and so on. It is extremely disappointing that there was a delay of a year and a half in what it thought was a very serious child sexual abuse claim.

It turned out that, in fact, it was based on false information. It is equally upsetting to see that in the report of false information that was given back to them by the counsellor, the bits were not joined together and that Sergeant McCabe had to suffer the appalling situation where he had contact from Tusla on what was a totally false allegation. Therefore, of course, I would be concerned. I am pleased that the Minister, Deputy Zappone, is setting up an inquiry under HIQA.

As we well know, child sexual abuse has been hidden away for a long time. Let us make it clear, however, that at present, with Children First now in place, everybody in the country is under an obligation to report it if they suspect child sex abuse. The public must have confidence in how those allegations are handled.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I have only one minute left for the other two Ministers to respond.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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In response to Deputy Mattie McGrath, I am deeply concerned about Tusla which is why I have requested that statutory investigation. As the Tánaiste has said, it is a relatively new organisation. There has been a change of leadership even within its short period of life, so I think it is important to note that at this stage as well. Yes, I have deep concerns and that is why it is absolutely critical that we have the inquiry, but also an investigation into the systems and processes that will allow us to see whether they are fit for purpose.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister for Health has ten seconds.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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In reply to Deputy Mattie McGrath, I am also extraordinarily concerned about so many of the revelations that we have heard in recent days. I do think, however, that people are entitled to due process, as is this organisation. It is a welcome development that the head of Tusla is going before the Committee on Children and Youth Affairs. It is vital that the tribunal this House will set up includes both Tusla and the HSE, and their interactions with An Garda Síochána.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I am now moving on to the Social Democrats who have eight minutes. I call Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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I wish to share time with Deputy Shortall and Deputy Catherine Martin. I want to address my question to the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I ask Members to refrain from consulting in the Chamber, please.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Social Democrats)
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The Taoiseach made the point that at the heart of this is a smear campaign against Sergeant Maurice McCabe, and a suggestion that it was orchestrated by senior gardaí. The Tánaiste expanded that to say the Commissioner and somebody at the next level to the Commissioner. Given that the Garda Commissioner is charged with handling discipline in the force and serious breaches of discipline, is it tenable for the Commissioner to appear as a witness potentially at the tribunal, and refute claims by people in her own organisation, and maintain discipline in the force? Is it tenable for the Commissioner to continue in position while this tribunal is in place?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Justice O'Neill investigated and did a preliminary report into the allegations that had been made. I made a mistake earlier when I said that Mr. Justice Charleton had done so. It was Mr. Justice O'Neill, so I want to correct that. I have just realised that I had said that. In his preliminary report, Mr. Justice O'Neill made contact with all of the people who were involved in the protected disclosures. Having done that preliminary report he decided that he could not arrive at a conclusion in relation to the matters before him. He said it was not possible for him to do it. He recommended a commission of investigation. Allegations are not convictions, however, and people are entitled to the presumption of innocence. That applies to all of the parties involved, including the Commissioner.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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My questions are to the Taoiseach. The issue of public concern is not so much who said what when, but rather the Taoiseach's failure to do the right thing by the whistleblowers. Their complaints go back to November 2012. On seven occasions since then they have been vindicated in official reports.

Therefore my questions to the Taoiseach are as follows. In light of the vindication of the whistleblowers and the clear evidence of corruption within the gardaí, why did it take a conflict in Cabinet to force his hand to agree to a public inquiry? When was the Taoiseach first made aware of the scurrilous rumours about Sergeant McCabe, and by whom? When did the Taoiseach decide to include these in the commission of inquiry? Finally, when did he become aware of the content of the meeting between Deputy McGuinness and the then Commissioner, Martin Callinan?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The latter case was referred to here in the Dáil on whatever date that was. I have already referred to the changes that are under way with the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, under the direction of Ms Justice Mary Ellen Ring. Protected disclosures are-----

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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I did not ask the Taoiseach that.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy mentioned about protected disclosures.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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When did he first become aware-----

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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One second Deputy, I will let you back in. Let the Taoiseach finish.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Cabinet did not draft the terms of reference. They were drafted by Mr. Justice O'Neill having examined the two protected disclosures. He made the recommendation that he was not able to determine the truth after analysing both protected disclosures. The terms of reference were drafted by him.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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On a point of order, the Taoiseach is not prepared to answer a straight question. I asked him when did he first become aware of the scurrilous rumours circulating about Sergeant McCabe. Can he tell us that?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I am sorry, Deputy, but that is not a point of order.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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The point of order is that the Taoiseach is refusing to answer questions.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I have no role or function in making anybody accountable in this House. I am just trying to administer the rules as fairly as possible. If she has a point of order it applies to the rules.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I want to correct Deputy Shortall. She made a comment about my drafting the terms of reference. These terms of reference were not drafted by me or by the Cabinet, they were drafted by Mr. Justice O'Neill.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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That is not what I asked the Taoiseach.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Can I stop the Taoiseach for a moment? Deputy Shortall will have to let the Taoiseach answer without interruption. She will be brought back in and can then further pursue her line of questioning. That is how I have treated everybody to date and I am not going to make any exceptions.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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The Taoiseach is answering questions that he was not asked. He is refusing to answer straight questions that he has been asked.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Shortall can highlight that when she comes back in. I should not have to raise my voice. I am going to move on from the Deputy's group.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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When did the Taoiseach first become aware of the rumours?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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If the Deputy continues to shout down the Chair I will move on from her group and will move on with the proceedings. Please bear with me and do not interrupt the other speaker. She will get a minute to come back in and can then make whatever complaint as eloquently as she wishes.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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He will not answer the questions.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy can make that point in a second.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They were rumours, allegations or hearsay. After the "Prime Time" programme things became very clear indeed. The Deputy did comment, rather than asking a question, saying we had drafted the terms of reference. Let me correct her and repeat that they were drafted by Mr. Justice O'Neill.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy has one minute.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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When did the Taoiseach first hear about those rumours?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not act on rumours, allegations or hearsay. I act on fact.

Catherine Martin (Dublin Rathdown, Green Party)
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Considering the grave extent of incompetencies and mistakes made to date by Tusla, can the Minister, Deputy Zappone, confirm whether or not similar mistakes of this magnitude have been made by Tusla, and whether or not Tusla made this mistake in respect of any other members of An Garda Síochána, or persons who are not members of the force? Is this an isolated incident? Or have other individuals - be they members of An Garda Síochána or not - been adversely affected by such appalling false allegations? If there are other cases, what supports can be given to these individuals and their families? Apart from the investigation that the Minister announced yesterday, what immediate steps have been taken to safeguard against this ever happening again? Surely there is no need to have to wait for the findings of an investigation or inquiry to assure the public that immediate steps are in train to ensure that this never recurs.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I appreciate Deputy Catherine Martin's questions. Of course, that is exactly what I want to do - to ensure that this will not happen from this day forth. That is what we have communicated in our conversations with Tusla, even from the beginning, subsequent to my meeting with the McCabes. In order to ensure that, however, it needs to be complemented by an investigation, as I have outlined. At the moment, this has been presented to me as an isolated case. That is what I know.

At the same time, I have deep concerns about the nature of this case. It is critical in terms of my leadership to ensure that we have that investigation to determine if the systems and processes are part of what led to this.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The time is up in the group's eight minute slot. I can bring the Green Party Deputies in as part of the next round. I note that Deputy Eamon Ryan wants to come in, but I ask if I can bring him in as part of the next session to be fair to every grouping. I gave them all eight minutes and do not want to change the rules for anybody.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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No. If I can come in-----

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I ask the Deputy to be very brief. Deputy Shortall took all of his time.

Eamon Ryan (Dublin Bay South, Green Party)
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I ask the Tánaiste in any investigation regarding Garda whistleblowers, what regulations will cover the examination, treatment and disclosure of phone, e-mail and Internet records of Members of the House, journalists and members of An Garda Síochána, given that this is an unprecedented inquiry and that the institution with access to those records is the one we are investigating? How will we have independent certainty and auditing in the terms of reference whereby we have safe access to phone records and are not reliant on gardaí to do that work? How will we do that work?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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It is a very good question. Mr. Justice Charlton will be the person dealing with that. He has given some indication already that he will also take independent expert advice on the management of all those issues.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I now move to questions and answers from the floor. Any Member can indicate. Currently, 12 Members have indicated and they are Deputies Micheál Martin, Jonathan O'Brien, Louise O'Reilly, Anne Rabbitte, Mary Lou MacDonald, Alan Kelly, Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, Pearse Doherty, Peader Tóibín, Richard Boyd Barrett, Mick Barry and Jan O'Sullivan.

John McGuinness (Carlow-Kilkenny, Fianna Fail)
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Here.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Deputies Catherine Murphy, Roísín Shortall, Billy Kelleher, Catherine Connolly, John McGuinness and Catherine Byrne have also now indicated. Members can indicate as they go along. I will stick to the same format as I now have 18 Members. There will be one minute for the question and one for the answer. This will take approximately 40 minutes and we may have a few minutes to take in a few more Members at the end. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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My question is, in the first instance, to the Tánaiste and then to the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. On the file, there is a reference of the counsellor who made the false report which was subsequently corrected which states: "Following our phone conversation yesterday, I am contacting you to inform you that I had another call in relation to the retrospective report which you are aware contains a clerical error. I was informed that the superintendent in the jurisdiction referred to in the report was not yet aware of the clerical error and has been asked to meet with the Garda Commissioner in relation to the case. I have agreed to send the superintendent the amended and corrected report by registered post today. If you have any queries relating to this, do not hesitate to call me." The deduction from that is that the counsellor who made the report which turned out to be false was, in essence, discussing the case with a senior garda who seems to have been advising her on how to deal with the error which had been made. That is a very serious issue in one respect. It is an issue which demands clarity.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Martin.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It demands clarity from both Tusla and An Garda Síochána and does not have to await the establishment of an inquiry.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Okay.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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With the Chair's forebearance, I want to put something to the Minister, Deputy Zappone.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Be very brief. I do not want to change the ground rules for everybody.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The sexual abuse regional team has reviewed Tusla's handling of the case. What is striking is that in one paragraph it says it is also not clear why a decision to proceed with the allegation was made without the co-operation and corroboration of the alleged victim and without having formed some opinion with regard to the credibility of the allegation referred.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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What is the question?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is extraordinary and demands more than the systemic type inquiry HIQA might do. There is something very untoward or - how to put it - very odd about all this in terms of the creation of this and the initiation.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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What is the Deputy's question?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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My question is to the Minister, Deputy Zappone, and the Tánaiste. The interaction between gardaí on the one hand and Tusla on the other, and the counsellor, begs a lot of questions in terms of how this file was created and how it is described as a mere administrative error subsequently. The file screams out-----

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is still making statements. Will he just ask a question, please?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----an inertia. Does the Minister agree that it screams out an incredible casualness about a monumental mistake about a very well known-----

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I have given the Deputy too much latitude to be fair.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Three minutes.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Chair was shouting down Members earlier. He shouted down Members when they were over their one minute.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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There is a bit more latitude in this section, but if Deputy Doherty wants me to enforce it strictly, I promise I will. It was a rather serious issue and I allowed him a little bit of latitude.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I apologise.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
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They are all serious.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I will adhere to the one minute strictly and allow no further latitude on any event if the Deputy insists.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I appreciate the importance of the issue Deputy Micheál Martin raises. There is always ongoing contact between An Garda Síochána and Tusla. There is a very close interaction in relation to child sexual abuse. In this case, the counsellor, as I understand it from that file, which I just got yesterday, was the person dealing with the issue to begin with. The Deputy asking questions on that and thinking we can get answers at this point is not, I think, possible and I will tell him why. It is so much the essence of what is going to be examined in the tribunal of inquiry. We will have to be clear and follow scrupulously fair procedures for everyone. I acknowledge that there are questions there about who was involved and when and what the interaction was between members of An Garda Síochána, the counselling service and Tusla.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I support what the Tánaiste says. I can understand why the Deputy is asking the question. He may have a suggestion in terms of other ways to get at that more quickly than what we are identifying here. The tribunal of inquiry may be appropriately placed or the investigation I have ordered. In light of the questions he raised and an earlier question from Deputy Catherine Martin on Tusla and An Garda Síochána, I indicated that I understood that this was an isolated case. I took Deputy Catherine Martin to be asking the question in terms of sexual abuse. If she was asking if it is wider than that, I can confirm that on Friday I received correspondence from a Garda whistleblower in another part of the country in relation to gardaí and Tusla.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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My first question is for the Tánaiste. Last week, when we sought to extend the terms of reference for the commission of investigation which was going to be established, we asked that other agencies would be included in terms of their contact with gardaí. Why was that ruled out? Why did the Tánaiste not take that on board?

My next question is to the Taoiseach. Earlier in reply to my question to him about how he knew the terms of reference would cover the Tusla connection, he said he made an assumption they would. Is that how the Taoiseach does business on such a serious issue? He made an assumption that it would be covered. Did he not think to go and check with anyone within Government that it would be covered under the terms of reference which were only being brought before Cabinet at that moment?

My final question is to the Minister, Deputy Zappone. She says that when she telephoned the Tánaiste and said she was meeting Maurice McCabe and his family, she did not inform her as to the purpose of that meeting. Is that correct?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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When we had the debate here last week, it was statements in order to hear what people had to say about the terms of reference. I gave an indication that I would accept various amendments which had been put forward. After I had seen the "Prime Time" programme, it became very clear there should be a specific reference to Tusla or, indeed, other agencies. Now, I would include the HSE as well.

I have since then indicated that I believe that those need to be involved in the terms of reference. Obviously, the programme made it absolutely clear that they should be involved. Many people here have suggested that Tusla, the HSE and other relevant agencies should be involved in the tribunal of inquiry, and I accept that and will include them.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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When I communicated with the Tánaiste, I did not say what the meeting was about because I did not know what it was about at the time.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In respect of the Deputy's question, I refer to the terms of reference set out by Mr. Justice O'Neill covered in the disclosure made by Sergeant Taylor and the question of criminality. This was dealing with matters of sexual abuse, and the Minister, Deputy Zappone, met the McCabe family. The discussion centred on false allegations of a sexual nature. The Minister has responsibility for Tusla and obviously the terms of reference would cover that.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, the Taoiseach said Tusla would be covered under the terms of reference. He made an assumption on that.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach's statement earlier that he told the truth in the House is very welcome, but it beggars belief that he felt the need to say it nonetheless. I thank him for clearing that up.

My questions are to the Minister for Health. I would like to know the nature and format of the information held by the HSE regarding the disgusting allegations made against Sergeant McCabe. Are there paper files? Are there electronic files? Does the Minister know where they are? Can he share that information with us? Can he assure us that the information is held in the secret and confidential manner?

With regard to the counsellor referred to during the course of the discussions, is the individual employed directly by the HSE? Is the person covered by HSE terms and conditions of employment and all of the rules that govern those explicitly? Is the person paid on the grade of councillor? Is that his or her substantive post? Can the Taoiseach confirm that he or she is not acting or in some other way seconded?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There seems to be an assumption in some quarters that people are going around telling deliberate lies or that I am not telling the truth. We have now spent two hours that would have been very well spent on discussing the terms of reference for the public inquiry into this matter. The central issue is was there or was there not a deliberate smearing campaign against Sergeant Maurice McCabe carried out by senior members of the Garda, that is, the Commissioner and the previous Commissioner. That is the central allegation. For that purpose, we need a tribunal of inquiry.

I understand Deputy Shortall said the reason one does not have a commission of investigation is that the McCabe family said it would not participate in it and instead wanted a full public inquiry. Today, the Cabinet agreed that there should be a full public inquiry under the Tribunal of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921 which has to be fair to all persons associated with this. For that reason, I am much happier to hear people talking about the decision to have a tribunal of inquiry and determine its terms of reference.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, that is-----

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Please, Deputy. Do not shout across the Chamber.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Since I became aware of this at midnight on Friday, my priority has been to make sure that the HSE fully co-operates with what will now be a tribunal of inquiry, that the HSE apologises to Sergeant Maurice McCabe and that the HSE makes itself available to meet Sergeant Maurice McCabe and provide him with as much information as possible. In terms of whether the HSE employee is acting or otherwise, I do not have that information but I will get it for the Deputy. In terms of whether there are any records held, I do not have that information but I will get it for the Deputy.

In regard to the National Counselling Service in general, as the Deputy heard me say in my statement, I have asked the director general to report to me regarding the procedures, policies and operations of the National Counselling Service. When I get the report I would like it to be discussed by the Joint Committee on Health to consider whether there is room for improvement. If the Deputy wishes, I can tell her all I have heard from the HSE so far. A note given to me states that the HSE was advised on Friday afternoon of potential involvement in the allegations relating to Garda McCabe which had been covered extensively in the media. While the details surrounding the cases are currently being determined, it seemed that a client who self referred to the HSE's national counselling service-----

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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The answer to my question is that the Minister does not know.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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My questions are for the Minister, Deputy Zappone. When was she aware that the "Prime Time" programme was going to take place? When did her officials become aware of the "Prime Time" programme? When did the Minister become aware that Tusla issued a statement of apology to the McCabe family and when did she share that information with her colleagues?

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I was aware of the "Prime Time" programme as it was being aired. I was not aware that it would happen prior to that. I think that covers the Deputy's first two questions. The third question concerned the apology.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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When was the Minister aware that Tusla issued an apology to the McCabe family?

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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Just prior to it doing that.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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What date was that?

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I think I was away at that time. I need to recollect and I will come back to the Deputy on that.

Anne Rabbitte (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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When were the Minister's officials at the Department aware of the apology that was issued?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister will return to the matter.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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We have made a bit of progress in the session. We have established that the Taoiseach was made aware of allegations of sexual abuse against Garda Maurice McCabe in May 2014. He was well aware of the narrative around this man. The Minister, Deputy Zappone, has finally clarified that she briefed the Taoiseach in advance of the Cabinet meeting of the meeting with Maurice McCabe and the false allegations. The idea that the Taoiseach comes back and says that he knew there were allegations but he did not know there was a file is a bit far-fetched. What did he imagine there would be? Of course there would be a file where there is a complaint, and of course that would be with Tusla.

My question is for the Tánaiste. Last Thursday, I asked her a very specific and open-ended question. I asked her of her state of knowledge of communication with other State agencies in respect of Maurice McCabe. She misled the Dáil. She did not put on the record her knowledge of meetings in terms of the McCabes and Tusla.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister, Deputy Zappone, informed me just before the Cabinet meeting that she had met the McCabe family and that discussion centred around false allegations of a sexual nature made to Tusla about Sergeant McCabe. That is the briefing that the Minister gave me. These matters were covered in the terms of reference set out by Mr. Justice O'Neill, in that Tusla was covered in that. The judge appointed at that time for the commission of investigation was happy that that also included all of the issues he saw on the RTE "Prime Time" programme on the Thursday evening.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's party thrives on rushing to judgment. She is wrong to say that I misled the Dáil. I did not know that there had been contact between the Garda and Tusla when I was in here last week. If I had known it, I would have thought of saying it to the Deputy when she asked the question.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I do not believe the Tánaiste.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy may not believe me, but I am telling her that is what happened. She rushed to judgment immediately and said that I had misled the Dáil and that I did not mention other agencies. I did not know about the Tusla involvement.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Many people have asked the Tánaiste when she first heard of the allegations in regard to Sergeant McCabe. Maybe she should think about that for 24 hours and come back to us because she has not answered the question on numerous occasions. We need an answer to that.

My main question is to the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality. Garda Keith Harrison has publicly come out and made a statement today on how he was treated as a whistleblower, along with his partner Marisa.

8 o’clock

Among 13 letters he sent to the Minister for Justice and Equality, the last three of which she has not even replied to, was a letter dated 21 October in which he outlined his issues regarding Tusla. Did an alarm bell not go off for the Minister when, on 25 January, the Minister, Deputy Zappone, came to her and said that she was meeting Sergeant McCabe that there was more than one case in relation to Tusla and whistleblowers? Finally-----

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Very briefly, Deputy.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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-----would the Taoiseach and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs - I am sorry now for breaking a bit of protocol - and also the leader of Fianna Fáil and its justice spokesperson be willing to meet Garda Harrison's representatives in the next 24 hours before the terms of reference are closed off in order to ensure that we get the proper terms of reference to what is an incredible situation?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not think that nominating a date for having heard allegations or rumours or hearsay or innuendo would do anything to deal with the central question: Was there or was there not a systematic campaign to smear Sergeant Maurice McCabe and his family? That is the why Mr. Justice O'Neill examined two protected disclosures; why the Cabinet, at the time, decided there should be a commission of investigation; why Mr. Justice O'Neill set out his terms of reference as he did, which covered issues within those protected disclosures, including criminality; and why the Cabinet this morning decided to move beyond that and to have a full scale public inquiry under the Tribunals of Inquiry (Evidence) Act 1921. It is because one could not conduct any inquiry without the participation of the McCabe family. We should be discussing what should go into those terms of reference. They should be comprehensive and fair so that they work effectively in the interests of answering that question, which is whether there was a definitive smearing campaign by senior gardaí against Sergeant McCabe. That is what is at stake here.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I have never commented on other disclosures that I have received and I believe it is incumbent on me not to do so. In fact, I have only given details in respect of the protected disclosures that are relevant to the setting up of the commission. I have only commented on those in so far as I needed to do so to establish the commission. I want to make the point to Deputy Kelly that I do not investigate protected disclosures.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I did not ask that of the Minister.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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We have a process to investigate protected disclosures. Every Department receives protected disclosures and there are clear ways of dealing with them. When I get a protected disclosure from a member of An Garda Síochána, and there have been a number of them, GSOC is the body that has been appointed to investigate-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Does the Minister not see the similarities?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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We spend a lot of time in this House talking about setting up-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Does the Minister not see the similarities between-----

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I will move on, Deputy.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I did not ask the Minister-----

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I will move on from the Deputy's question. That is it.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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We spend a lot of time in this House talking about setting up independent procedures to remove policing from this House. We give these protected disclosures to GSOC so that they can be independently assessed. That is what I did with the information I received.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I asked-----

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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The Minister, Deputy Zappone, wanted to come in.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I wanted to respond to Deputy Rabbitte.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I asked the Taoiseach and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs if they would meet Garda Harrison in the next 24 hours.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I am aware of that. Will the Minister, Deputy Zappone, respond to Deputy Rabbitte and I will then deal with-----

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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On the question about an apology, we asked Tusla to issue an apology after our meeting and were examining the most appropriate way to do it and we did see it before it was issued. If I may, I will take this moment to correct myself again so as to not mislead the Dáil. Deputy O'Brien asked about my communication with the Tánaiste and whether I told her what the meeting was about. I did not tell her what the meeting was about. There was a couple of phone calls between my office and the McCabes. There was some information available. When I said that there was no information, I was thinking "not full information". I think his question was whether I shared that at all with the Tánaiste. I did not.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach or the Minister for Justice and Equality want to respond to the question on the invitation to meet-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It was the Taoiseach and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs. Garda Harrison does not want to meet the Minister for Justice and Equality. Will the Taoiseach and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs meet Garda Harrison in the next 24 hours. It is a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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In relation to the protected disclosure?

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Taoiseach want to answer that question? Very briefly, please.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The priority here is that the Government-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Is that a "no"?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----that is, the Cabinet, has made a decision which I understand the House accepts in principle and which is that we should have a commission of inquiry. It is important because of this sensitive matter that the commission of inquiry be set up as quickly as possible and allowed to do its work.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is a "no".

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Therefore, we have agreed, I understand, that the spokespersons on justice for the different parties will get together with the Minister for Justice and Equality to draft these terms of reference and nominate a chairperson to conduct the proceedings and determine the question that needs to be answered. The answer to that question is in everyone's interest.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs has to answer the question.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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One second. Relax, Deputy. I think the Taoiseach has addressed the issue.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs has to answer the question as well.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Excuse me, Deputy. I am not responsible for the responses they give. The question was asked and a response was given.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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I asked the question of the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Also, it is somewhat-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It would take five seconds. It would be over by now.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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It is somewhat outside of what we are discussing.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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It is a "yes" or "no" answer.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Does the Minister want to give an answer to it?

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

To meet them about what?

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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About the letter he wrote to the Minister three days ago.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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In which he indicated a series of questions on which he was looking for a response.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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Yes, before the terms of reference are closed off.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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My understanding, from what the Tánaiste has said, is that is in reference to a protected disclosure.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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No.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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We are straying into an area. I am going to leave it there.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Tusla and a false claim of sexual-----

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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Shouting will not change anything.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I will consider it.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Minister.

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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That is not an answer.

Jim Daly (Cork South West, Fine Gael)
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I am moving on. I call Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Would the Taoiseach not accept that it is critically important that we establish when he first became aware of the smear of sexual activity with children involved in relation to Garda Sergeant McCabe? It is important we establish how the Taoiseach acted on receipt of that information. Dismissing it as rumour or whatever it might be does not inform us as to how the Taoiseach acted. The only way we can establish if the Taoiseach acted appropriately is if he tells us when he first became aware of it. The fact of the matter is that we can only conclude that the Taoiseach bought into the smear and did nothing if he does not share that information. It is critically important that the Taoiseach informs this House. In relation to the reference to a "private capacity", what does the Taoiseach mean by "private capacity" in the context of everything to do with Garda Sergeant McCabe? I ask this of the Minister, Deputy Zappone, too. There can be no question that Garda Sergeant Maurice McCabe and his wife were meeting the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs in a private capacity.

Charles Flanagan (Laois, Fine Gael)
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It was a private meeting.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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They were meeting the Minister because she is the Minister with responsibility for children and youth affairs. There is no two ways or pick a cap. She is either the Minister or she is not. I want that cleared up. I want the Minister to clarify in what capacity she met Garda Sergeant Maurice McCabe and his wife.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I can help the Deputy. The Minister met privately with the McCabes but she had personnel with her from her Department.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What does that mean?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Hold on. The Secretary General of the Department-----

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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She was meeting as the Minister-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach without interruption, please.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister, who is doing a very good job by the way, was quite entitled to meet privately with Sergeant McCabe and his wife and to have a note taker there to have an account of the meeting.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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That was not a private meeting.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Secretary General of the Department of Children and Youth Affairs sent a copy of the note taken at the meeting to the Secretary General of my Department.

Róisín Shortall (Dublin North West, Social Democrats)
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Then it is not a private meeting.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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How can that be in a private capacity?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In respect of knowing-----

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is total nonsense.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is a little bit far fetched for Deputy Ó Caoláin-----

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That is nonsense.

Louise O'Reilly (Dublin Fingal, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach should stop trying to deflect.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is a little bit far fetched for Deputy Ó Caoláin to accuse me or anyone else over here of buying into a smear campaign against Sergeant McCabe.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach tell us when he first became aware of that smear against Garda Sergeant McCabe?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I became aware of it the same as most of the rest of the nation, which was after the "Prime Time" programme. For Deputy Ó Caoláin to suggest that someone deliberately bought into a smear campaign is certainly not the way Deputy Ó Caoláin normally conducts his business.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach has to clarify when he became aware for us to be able to establish whether he acted appropriately or not.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Le do thoil, a Theachta. Ní féidir leat lean ar aghaidh. Glaoim ar an Teachta Pearse Doherty.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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He has to do that.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It was after the "Prime Time" programme.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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That does not appear to be the case.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Bomaite amháin, a Theachta.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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I have three questions, one of which is for the Taoiseach. Obviously, the Taoiseach is not aware of what is in the protected disclosures from Superintendent David Taylor. He stated that there are allegations of criminality. We know that from the terms of reference, but the Taoiseach stated that they were of a sexual abuse nature. Perhaps the Taoiseach should clarify it. Is he aware that is what the protected disclosures included?

How was the Taoiseach able to satisfy the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Katherine Zappone, that the allegations, as she made them to the Taoiseach - that they discussed false allegations of sexual abuse made to Tusla against Sergeant McCabe - would be covered in the terms of reference?

My second question is directed to the Minister, Deputy Zappone. Keith Harrison is a whistleblower who has been in direct communication with the Minister for Justice and Equality for a while. He was also in communication with me at a very early stage, namely, when he was about to blow the whistle and go public. At that time, he mistakenly believed that if his case was raised in the Dáil, he would have protection from the type of victimisation that he has since suffered at the hands not only of the Garda, but also Tusla. Will the Minister do what she rightly did with Sergeant McCabe and meet Keith Harrison before the Cabinet signs off on the terms of reference of the inquiry?

On many occasions over many years, I have asked the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality, her predecessor in the Department and the Taoiseach why the Tribunals of Inquiry Bill 2005 had not been progressed. As every Deputy knows, the tribunals of inquiry legislation dating back to 1921 is flawed as it provides a gravy train for the legal profession. The 2005 Bill imposes a cap on this by providing that people presenting evidence to a tribunal who hire public relations consultants would not be able to recoup their costs for so doing.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy has exceeded his time.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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Why has the Bill, which reached Report Stage, not been progressed so that the tribunal can be held under the new legislation and the most contentious aspects of tribunals removed?

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs did not answer my question.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy may have another opportunity.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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I ask her to answer the question when she next speaks.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In reply to Deputy Pearse Doherty's question, the judge in question would have had contact with all the persons involved in this. Clearly, the terms of reference, as drafted by the judge, would have covered all the issues that are relevant. It has been confirmed by the judge appointed to look after the commission of investigation that all the issues that were seen on the "Prime Time" programme were included.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The judge did not know that at the time.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am saying that Mr. Justice O'Neill obviously had contact with all the principals involved here and would have covered in his terms of reference all the issues that were raised, including the agency, Tusla. This was confirmed afterwards by Mr. Justice Charleton who stated the terms of reference included all the issues that he saw on the "Prime Time" programme on Thursday.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The wish of this House has been that we should use commissions of investigation as opposed to tribunals of inquiry. Therefore, the focus in recent times has been very much on commissions of investigation.

In relation to further legislation regarding tribunals, I certainly do not want to delay the establishment of this tribunal by starting to change the terms of reference or how tribunals operate at this point as to do so would unduly delay the new tribunal.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Bill in question has been on the Order Paper for 12 years.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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In replying to Deputy Pearse Doherty's questions, I ask the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs to respond to the question asked by Deputy Ó Caoláin.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I am sorry but I did not hear the Deputy's question.

Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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In what capacity did the Minister meet Sergeant Maurice McCabe? Was it as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs?

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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Yes, it was as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Doherty asked the Minister a question.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will meet him.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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It is very significant that the Taoiseach stonewalled the question on when he first knew of the false allegations because to answer that question would require him to change his narrative on the issue again. Such was the importance of the Tusla revelations that the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs apparently decided it would be best to leave to chance its inclusion in the terms of reference. The Taoiseach and Tánaiste stated they did not have the full details of the Tusla allegations but they could guess in advance that the terms of reference would be robust enough. Why did the Tánaiste not speak directly to Maurice McCabe before the terms of reference were finalised? The one individual who could have shed light on the full frame and necessity of this investigation was not part of the discussion.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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There is a very easy answer to the Deputy's question. I met Maurice McCabe and his wife some time ago because I felt it was important to meet him and hear what he had to say given the various events that were happening at that time. He made a request to meet me so I met him. There is a reason I did not change the terms of reference. If I had come into the House and changed the terms of reference that Mr. Justice O'Neill had recommended, I would definitely have been open to criticism. I wanted to accept the terms of reference the judge had suggested. Why did I want to do that? It was because Mr. Justice O'Neill was the person who had direct access to the persons who had made the protected disclosures, including Sergeant Maurice McCabe and Superintendent Dave Taylor, the people the allegations had been made against, if one likes. The judge, having discussed the issues that were in the protected disclosures with all these people, suggested these terms of reference. I accepted fully that the judge had heard everything that needed to be heard because he had direct access to Sergeant Maurice McCabe. I, therefore, accepted the recommendations he made. I was not going to second guess what the judge had to say because he was the one with the direct access to the people who had made the protected disclosures.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Do the Tánaiste and Minister for Children and Youth Affairs not believe it is relevant to the terms of reference of the tribunal of inquiry to be discussed that we now have two Garda whistleblowers against whom false allegations of sexual abuse have been made involving Tusla? Do they not believe this is relevant to the decision on the terms of reference? I ask the Tánaiste and the Minister to give straight answers to that question because it is highly relevant. If there is a pattern of using Tusla to-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
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On a point of order, while it may have been inadvertent, the Deputy's statement is not accurate.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Child abuse is what he said. It was child abuse via Tusla. Is it not relevant to look into those matters and engage with-----

Alan Kelly (Tipperary, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy's statement is not accurate.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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I am reading from the report today.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy's time is up.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Government has made clear its view on this matter but does the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs believe it is tenable for Nóirín O'Sullivan to remain in situas Garda Commissioner? Notwithstanding the Commissioner's right to due process, if any of these allegations were true - we do not know and it should be without prejudice - her being in situpotentially prejudices the ability of any tribunal to get to the truth of the matter.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy must conclude. Other Deputies wish to contribute.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Does the Minister consider that to be a tenable position?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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When the judge was given this task and looked at the protected disclosures he said they were unique because they were about the most senior members of An Garda Síochána and incredibly serious. He said that if, at the end of the process, it was proven that whomever was not telling the full truth, there would be the most serious consequences. He said that these matters should be dealt with alone because they were so serious, they deserved a commission of investigation on their own. One of the cental points there, and I discussed it with Deputy Micheál Martin earlier, will be in relation to the interaction between the whistleblower, Sergeant Maurice McCabe, and what happened to him in his dealings with Tusla. It is in the interests of getting at the truth and dealing with the very issues the Deputy raises that this goes ahead because it will investigate, in the context of Sergeant McCabe, the very issue the Deputy is highlighting. It is important that we move ahead quickly to establish this tribunal of inquiry. If people want quick answers, we have to be very careful not to extend the terms of reference so much that this becomes impossible.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I call Deputy Mick Barry.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs did not respond to a direct question I asked.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have no control over the answers Ministers give.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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She is about to respond.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

My apologies. The Minister must also watch the clock.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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In relation to the Commissioner, I believe in due process.

Mick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach told the Minister, Deputy Zappone, that the false allegation about which she told him would be covered by the commission. That means he had to have known in advance of the Cabinet meeting that this was more than any false allegation, that this was an allegation which related specifically to the smear campaign. Why, therefore, did he not ensure that Tusla was specifically and explicitly included in the terms of reference?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As I have already stated, Mr. Justice O'Neill had contact with all the people involved in the two protected disclosures. He was not in a position to determine the truth and so he advised the establishment of a commission of investigation in respect of which he set out the terms of reference. Is the Deputy suggesting that an eminent judge would examine two protected disclosures and draft terms of reference that did not include issues that were relevant? As I said previously, the Minister, Deputy Zappone, pointed out to me that the discussion she had with Sergeant McCabe was about false-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy McDonald, please.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----allegations of a sexual nature that were given to Tusla.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

May I intervene to ensure that the record of the Dáil is correct?

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy will be here quite a while so.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The terms of reference cover Tusla. The Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality said she would broaden them explicitly to cover that later on but the justice was happy that was the case.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

On a point of order, to ensure that the record of the Dáil is accurate-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will allow the Deputy's intervention.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach is wrong in his response for the following reason. At the time of the protected disclosure Maurice and Lorraine McCabe were not aware of the particular file.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach is not answering the question factually and it is essential to point that out.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach will have a further opportunity to respond. I call Deputy Jan O'Sullivan.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Given that intervention, the Taoiseach needs to respond further.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Hold on, Deputy. I have a lengthy list. I have to ensure that everybody gets an opportunity to speak. The Taoiseach will have further opportunities to contribute, at which point he may address that question.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach did not know what was in the protected disclosure so how could he reassure the Minister that it was covered?

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I have called Deputy Jan O'Sullivan.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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It is impossible.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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If I may, I will repeat that question to the Taoiseach and perhaps he might answer it. Maurice and Lorraine McCabe wrote a long letter yesterday explaining that they wanted a public inquiry because of their experience of the previous inquiries that were private. That now, I presume, will be a decision of this House. They also set out six specific questions that they said could be answered in the interim as we await answers from a tribunal of inquiry. The Minister, Deputy Zappone, referred to two of those questions in her contribution.

My first question is to the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Fitzgerald. Can she answer, in whole or in part, any of those six questions in advance of the tribunal and, if so, she will do so? My next question is to the Minister, Deputy Zappone. The Minister said that she has already corresponded with the McCabes on the second question of whether a decision was made not to inform Maurice of the making of the 2013 allegation. If so, why and by whom? I do not see any reason that information cannot be put into the public domain. Will the Minister, Deputy Zappone, put into the public domain whether a decision was made not to inform Maurice McCabe in 2013 of the allegation made? If he had been told at that time the family would have been spared a huge amount of pain because they would have been able to clarify the situation. I believe that is information that should be in the public domain. It is not specifically about any individual and so I do not see any reason it should not be in the public domain. Perhaps the Minister, Deputy Zappone, would respond to that question and the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, would respond to my other question.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Tusla deals with matters of sexual abuse in so far as children are concerned. Mr. Justice Iarfhlaith O'Neill examined two protected disclosures, the contents of which I did not see or have knowledge of. He had contact with everybody involved and he then drafted terms of reference that were broad enough to include Tusla. Separate from that-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, that is wrong.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----the Supreme Court judge who was appointed to head up the commission of investigation said that the terms of reference as drafted by Mr. Justice O'Neill were broad enough to cover all the issues that were raised on the "Prime Time" programme on the Thursday night.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach continues to brazen it out-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy McDonald, you are usually very orderly.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I know.

Pearse Doherty (Donegal, Sinn Fein)
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This is unbelievable.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Zappone to respond.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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Is Deputy O'Sullivan asking if the question she has raised is one of the six submitted?

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Yes.

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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I have received answers from Tusla. We have sent them to the McCabes and are waiting to hear back from them in terms of whether or not as far as they are concerned they are correct. When I get that response I will be happy to share it.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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Will the information be put into the public domain?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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May I respond to the Deputy's question regarding the decision not to inform the McCabes?

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I call Deputy Billy Kelleher.

Jan O'Sullivan (Limerick City, Labour)
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The Tánaiste has not answered my question.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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My apologies.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I do not have that information at present. The only place where there is any information about that of which I am aware at this point is in the file that the Ministers, Deputies Zappone and Harris, have in relation to the contacts of HSE and counsellors. I do not have that information but I will try to get it in terms of reply to the questions from Sergeant McCabe in regard to the contact between the counsellor and the HSE and so on. If I can get any information that I can give to Sergeant McCabe I will do that. I must, however, make the point that if it is connected with the establishment of and central to the issues that are to be examined by the tribunal of inquiry then it would be unfair to other parties to do so because it would be seen as a preferential response to one party. As I said already, that is my legal advice. I do have to be careful that I do not do that. None of us would want to see that happen because it would mean that other parties could say that the origins of the tribunal of inquiry were unfair to them. I have to be careful in terms of what precise information I can give.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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My question is to the Minister for Health. The HSE statement of last Saturday states: "The HSE wishes to confirm that there was an administrative error by a staff member of the HSE National Counselling Service in the referral made at the time", which was August 2013. It goes on to state that the administrative error was brought to the attention of the National Counselling Service in May 2014. It further states that the National Counselling Service responded immediately in May 2014 and corrected the report and brought it to the attention of Tusla and An Garda Síochána and that in line with due process it was brought to the regional manager for data protection and consumer affairs. Given the seriousness of the allegations contained in the report of serious sexual abuse was any internal investigation, other than a preliminary review of procedures, carried out?

The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs said that under section 9 of the 2007 Act a statutory investigation into Tusla is being commenced. Is the Minister for Health considering commencement of a similar investigation? Perhaps both Ministers would respond on whether it will be possible for those statutory investigations to be carried out in conjunction with the tribunal of inquiry?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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With the indulgence of the House it would be helpful to my answering Deputy Kelleher's question if I can make available the information that I have from the HSE. Before doing so I would like to clarify that the HSE at national level and I, as Minister for Health, only became aware of the role of the HSE counsellor on Friday evening, whereas other Departments and agencies have been aware of this for some time.

The HSE was advised on Friday afternoon of potential involvement in allegations relating to Sergeant McCabe which had been covered extensively in the media. While the details surrounding the case are currently being determined it would appear that a client was self referred to the HSE's National Counselling Service in July 2013, making an allegation of retrospective abuse. In line with process, this allegation was referred to the HSE's child protection service in the area in August 2013. It is understood that this incident was also previously reported to the Garda Síochána in 2006 but that the DPP did not proceed with a case at that time. It would seem that the client was then contacted by the Garda in May 2014 in relation to the allegation. However, she became concerned that the detail of the allegation as advised to her by the Garda was incorrect. She then - she being the client - contacted the HSE counsellor and advised her of this. The counsellor, in turn, reported the error to the HSE director of counselling. Immediate steps were taken by the director of counselling that very day and it was found that there was an administrative error on the report form. On that day in May 2014 a letter was hand delivered to Tusla child and family services as HSE child and family services had transitioned to Tusla in 2014 and it was marked for the attention of the social work team leader, informing that it had come to the attention of the HSE National Counselling Service that there was an administrative error on a report submitted to its office on 9 August 2013.

The letter described the error and included an amended report with the correct information. This report was dated 14 May 2014.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Go raibh maith agat.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I beg the indulgence of the House because it is important to put this on the record. The letter requested that the original report containing the error be replaced with the correct version of the report, which was enclosed. The Tusla social work team leader advised by phone on 15 May 2014 that the garda in charge of the investigation of this report had been contacted and informed of the error and advised that an amended report would be issued to him. Between 16 May 2014 and 21 July 2014, there were several communications between the HSE and the gardaí clarifying the nature of the error on the form. A letter from the HSE director of counselling to An Garda Síochána clarified that the administrative error occurred as a result of a typographical mistake when information from a report template was cut and pasted into another template, and the letter stated that the inaccurate information in the original report was in one section only, as previously outlined, and did not relate to the person who was alleged to have abused client X but that all other information contained in the report was accurate. Letters were also sent to the client updating her on the actions that had taken place and to the HSE regional director of consumer affairs.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Maybe I can contribute again in a moment.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Could the Minister circulate that?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Could the Minister circulate that?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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That is a note available to me which I have-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I thank the Minister.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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No other question was asked. I have to be-----

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Could what was not read into the record be circulated?

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Is it possible?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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On a point of order-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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I have to deal with one at a time.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Could it be circulated?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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To be helpful to the House, including Deputy Kelleher, I made information available that is now on the record of the House.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Can it be circulated? It is going on the record.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It is on the record of the House.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Can it be circulated?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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It is on the record.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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I will arrange for it to be circulated.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Minister, Deputy Zappone, want to intervene?

Katherine Zappone (Dublin South West, Independent)
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No

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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The information will be circulated.

Billy Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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What is the position on section 9 of the Health Act 2007?

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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In answer to Deputy Kelleher's substantive question-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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We must proceed.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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It is important.

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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It may well be but-----

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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These are important matters, but I need the time to answer the questions properly. I have asked the director general of the HSE to carry out a review of the national counselling service and its operations, policies and procedures and to report to me and the Oireachtas health committee. If at that stage we need a further review through HIQA, I will be more than happy to have that.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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The note that was read is extremely germane to the whole debate. Following all that clarification, Tusla wrote to Sergeant McCabe in December 2015 and said it was going to investigate whether he was a danger to children. One should bear that in mind. The Minister is now asking the same executive to carry out a root and branch investigation and asking us to have confidence-----

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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HIQA.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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HIQA for Tusla and the Minister for the Health Service Executive.

I am addressing my questions to the trinity of Ministers. They are asking us to have confidence in a root-and-branch investigation carried out by the very management that allowed this mistake to happen.

With regard to the six questions posed by Sergeant McCabe, I see a difference in the responses. The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Zappone, has clarified that two questions have been answered and she is sending that information to Sergeant McCabe. With regard to the other four questions, I am not sure what the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality is telling the House. She seems to be speaking out of both sides of her mouth. On the one hand, she is saying the Government will do its best to give the information and, on the other, she is saying it relates to the very essential nature of the inquiry. I fundamentally disagree with her in that practically every judge associated with every inquiry and tribunal has pointed out that if questions were asked in this House and replied to, tribunals would not take so long and would not be as costly. These are six factual questions. Was there a meeting between the HSE and the Garda on the date in question? I seek a "Yes" or "No" answer. The same applies to the other practical questions. The Tánaiste should please confirm tonight which are the questions she says cannot be answered factually and which go to the heart of the proposed independent tribunal.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I have made this very clear. I have been very clear that if it is possible to answer those questions, I will get those answers. My advice is that if at the request of one of the parties to the tribunal we answer some of those questions and they are central to the work of the tribunal, it could invalidate the tribunal. The other parties would then be in a position to go to court and effectively stop the work of the tribunal because it would have been seen as unfair. I absolutely take the point that if we can put information into circulation that answers these questions, we should do it. I will certainly endeavour to do that. That is what I am currently investigating, but I am not in a position to answer them tonight.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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They are factual questions.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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That is the Deputy's interpretation of them. That has to be determined.

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Did a meeting take place between An Garda Síochána-----

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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That is factual but, in terms of-----

Catherine Connolly (Galway West, Independent)
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Which one is causing the difficulty?

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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It is not that any particular one is causing the difficulty. I am making the general point in regard to answering them that we have to be-----

Pat Gallagher (Donegal, Fianna Fail)
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