Dáil debates

Wednesday, 1 February 2017

Ceisteanna - Questions

World Economic Forum

1:15 pm

Photo of Mick BarryMick Barry (Cork North Central, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

2. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum in Davos. [2758/17]

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

3. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his attendance at the World Economic Forum in Davos. [2785/17]

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Anti-Austerity Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

4. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his visit to the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, and the discussions he had there. [2788/17]

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

5. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his visit to the World Economic Forum in Davos. [2796/17]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

6. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his visit to the World Economic Forum recently. [3068/17]

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

7. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his visit to Davos and any meetings that he attended with companies (details supplied). [3070/17]

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

8. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on his participation in the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, and the cost of his visit. [4128/17]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 to 8, inclusive, together.

I was invited by Professor Klaus Schwab to attend the annual meeting of the World Economic Forum and I was in Davos from 18 to 20 January. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, also attended. The theme of this year's meeting was Responsive and Responsible Leadership.

The Minister, Deputy Noonan, and I used our time in Davos to promote Ireland as a location for international business and investment in the context of Brexit and other current global developments.

My programme included bilateral meetings with a number of companies that are potential investors in Ireland as well as with existing investors here. At these meetings, I emphasised that Ireland retains all the advantages that make it an attractive and stable location for investment and that we will remain a committed member of the European Union.

I also had the opportunity on Thursday to outline Ireland's priorities in Brexit negotiations and our preparations in advance of negotiations at one of the World Economic Forum's formal programme events, under the informal gathering of world economic leaders programme. This event was attended by over 15 Heads of State or Government and approximately 60 other attendees.

I briefly met the British Prime Minister, Mrs. May, in the margins of the forum. I also met Jamie Drummond, executive director of the ONE organisation. We discussed a number of international development matters and the work of the organisation.

As in previous years, I hosted an IDA Ireland dinner as part of my Davos programme. This was attended at the highest levels from existing and prospective FDI clients from some of the world's largest multinational corporations. There were 22 companies and approximately 40 senior executives represented this year. Those with existing operations in Ireland employ over 20,000 here. I again used the opportunity to outline Ireland's Brexit programme and to emphasise the strengths that underpin our success in attracting foreign direct investment.

I acknowledged the vital contribution that many of the companies represented had made to Ireland and to our economy. I urged those who were looking at potential locations for investment or expansion to consider our country.

I attended various media engagements, including interviews with Irish and international media.

As is the case for all my travel, my officials ensured costs were minimised and the best value for money pursued. The final cost of the trip is not yet available. I am satisfied that the costs of the trip to Davos are justified given the value of the opportunity to engage with so many key decision-makers, as well as supporting IDA Ireland in its role in promoting Ireland as a location for investment.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

One of the central discussions at Davos - ironically, given that it is packed full of multi-billionaires and the world's elite - was inequality. One could not make it up. In so far as it was discussed, Oxfam made a shocking presentation revealing that eight billionaires own the same amount of personal wealth as the poorest 50% of the world's population. The presentation made it clear that the major contributory factor to this was corporate tax avoidance, ironically by the very same people with whom the Taoiseach rubbed shoulders at the forum, and who have engaged in aggressive tax avoidance and evasion in this country.

Was the Taoiseach not embarrassed by the stark facts revealed by Oxfam about Ireland's deep implication in contributing to that level of global inequality when the Apple tax ruling confirmed, and it was named by Oxfam at the forum, that it is one of the major culprits in all of this, yet we are appealing a ruling in which the EU Commission sought to do something about that? Contrary to what the Taoiseach said in his previous reply, Commissioner Vestager said there was no evidence whatsoever that any other European country had a claim on that €13 billion and that as far as she was concerned, the overwhelming majority of it was owed to Ireland because Apple had allocated profits-----

1:25 pm

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, you need to conclude. Other speakers are offering and we want to get everyone in.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----to a company that did not exist and Revenue had allowed that to happen.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If I recall the press release by the Commissioner, she was at pains to say that she was not interfering in any way with the corporate tax rates issue, which is a matter of national competence, but that her issue was state aid rules. If I recall correctly, the point was made that some of this estimated amount would be due to other countries-----

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

She did not say that.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----but that is a matter for them to determine whether there was economic activity there or not.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

She did not say that.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That was in the original press release.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy Boyd Barrett spoke about rubbing shoulders with billionaires. I did meet with the Facebook company, AT&T, Medtronic, IBM, Shire, Salesforce, Excel, Novartis, Lloyds, Bank of America, Liberty Global and BT. Those companies are significant employers in this country.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Taoiseach meets them a fair bit in the Clearing House Group as well.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They employ over 20,000 people. Companies that attended in the past included Tech Mahindra, which announced 150 new jobs in an IT project for Dublin in January of this year. Kaspersky Lab announced the opening of a 50 person research and development laboratory last September. Credit Suisse announced 100 new jobs in January of last year. Facebook announced 200 jobs for a further expansion in Dublin last year, and Shire announced 400 jobs in a new biotechnology manufacturing centre in County Meath.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Thank you, Taoiseach. We need to stick to the time allocated. Deputy Bríd Smith is the next speaker.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Those are all good employers of workers at home and abroad.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They still pay their taxes, do they not? Is that too much to ask?

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I will call the Taoiseach Tánaiste because he calls me Deputy Collins all the time.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

God bless you. I did not mean to do that.

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am just trying to be a smart aleck. I will stay on the same theme as my colleague and comrade, Deputy Boyd Barrett, that is, inequality, which was one of the main themes at Davos. Shocking economic reports published in the past year or so indicate that inequality in this country is growing and will probably reach United States levels if we do not do something to address them. In fact, Ireland is the most unequal society in Europe according to all the statistics. When the Taoiseach was in Davos, did the thought occur to him that when he thinks about Ireland as a microcosm of the capitalist economic system, Davos was a microcosm of the capitalist economic system? I am sure he is starkly reminded of the inequalities of capitalism in a place like Davos, where workers are stuck in small hotel rooms in bunk beds while at the same time lavish parties attended by film stars, billionaires and oligarchs take place. It might be interesting to know if the Taoiseach was invited to any of those parties or if he got paid to attend any of them because some world leaders do get paid to attend lavish parties put on by oligarchs who live in the mountains. We would like to hear if the Taoiseach attended any of them. My point is that Davos is a microcosm of inequality, as is Ireland. In the past the Taoiseach informed the business elite of the world that Ireland is a great little country in which to do business. Did he tell them that Ireland was a great little country in which to do inequality and that 2,000 children are homeless every night and that the trolley crisis is growing?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Deputy, you have to conclude.

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It may be a great place to do business and not pay one's taxes but it also has a major down-side for its population. Did the Taoiseach explain that to the attendees at Davos?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I do not agree with the Deputy that we are the most unequal society in Europe.

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is not my opinion. Economic studies show that.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The Deputy will be well aware that we have made specific changes in the last number of budgets to deal with the lower paid where inequality exists and to give people an opportunity and incentive to get out of the rut of unemployment and into the world of work. The evidence of that is clear in terms of a fall in unemployment from 15.2% down to 7.1%. I hope that decreases to around 6% in the coming months, which is an extraordinary response from the people in dealing with the economic situation. We have dealt with significant numbers of people on the minimum wage by removing them from liability under the universal social charge-----

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

They were given a rise of 10 cent.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

----and making changes in income tax at the lower levels to focus on the question of inequality. I support trade liberalisation. I support globalisation provided it is handled properly and that we do not have those gaps in income.

I assure the Deputy that I was not invited to any of the celebrity parties on the slopes of Davos. I did not receive any remuneration for the 20 hour day I put in at Davos, as any of the Members would were they in the same position. From that point of view, I can assure the Deputy that my agenda, which is published and available for everybody to see, was strictly business.

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Business in equality.

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will take the next three questioners, Deputies Adams, Martin and Howlin, together and then go to the Taoiseach for the responses.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I, too, want to raise the issue of Apple and ask the Taoiseach if it was raised in Davos. I was not at the committee but I read the accounts of the EU Competition Commissioner's appearance before the Oireachtas finance committee. I read all the points put forward by Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil representatives about so-called fantasy money and Ireland acting as a tax collector for the world but arguments around selectivity and tech sovereignty were forensically dismissed and destroyed, point by point, by the Commissioner. She made it clear that the more than €13 billion back tax is due to the citizens of this State. It appears to me also that she believes that what happened was not a misunderstanding, a mistake or a misapplication of procedure. The Commissioner is suggesting that it was a calculated, contrived and unique arrangement put in place to favour Apple at the expense of other companies, including indigenous companies.

If we lived in the type of society the Taoiseach appears to believe we live in, one could imagine there would be many reasons to be charitable towards Apple and to say that we do not need the €13 billion because what would we do with it? Could we use it to cure the crises in health or in housing? If Apple wants to appeal this ruling, that is fair enough but the Taoiseach should not appeal it and the Government should stop the waste of taxpayers' money on the back of the type of malpractice and evasion that obviously has taken place.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There are many people who would argue that the Taoiseach should never go to Davos. I am not one of those.

Photo of Richard Boyd BarrettRichard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is because the Deputy wants to go.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No. I have been there before. Davos will not change the world economy. It will have no impact on the world economy-----

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It is just more of the same.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----but it is a very good forum in which to promote Ireland and to engage with people who invest in Ireland.

Ireland cannot solve all the global problems of the world but the bottom line is that Apple employ thousands of people in my city, as does EMC, Facebook and Google. All of those companies employ thousands of people.

Photo of Bríd SmithBríd Smith (Dublin South Central, People Before Profit Alliance)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That does not stop them paying their taxes.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I put this to the Taoiseach that whether we like it or not, over the past 30 years Irish industrial policy has been successful in bringing thousands of jobs to this country. That is never acknowledged by those Members who have spoken before me. The plight of the workers in those companies is never acknowledged. I have worked in enterprise. I have worked with IDA Ireland to try to bring in industry here, against competitors in different countries and often within the same company, with different sites trying to get extra activity and business. There was an onus on any Government of the day to try to win that.

The Taoiseach met the British Prime Minister, Theresa May, in Davos.

He also met her yesterday. The Taoiseach seemed to say yesterday that the issue of the impact of Brexit on the Northern Ireland Act 1998 has not yet been raised with the British Prime Minister. Will he indicate whether he has raised it with her because it is a very serious issue? The Act implements the Good Friday Agreement and is a direct product of the negotiations. It requires the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly to act in accordance with European Union law, not only the European Convention on Human Rights but also Council of Europe documents. Has this issue been raised with the British Government as something that must be protected with regard to Brexit?

1:35 pm

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I have never been to Davos either, although I have made presentations to the World Economic Forum on behalf of the State in other locations. The RTE report from Davos stated papers are being prepared on ways to minimise customs checks on the Border between Northern Ireland and the Republic as a result of Brexit. Will the Taoiseach share these papers with us?

The Taoiseach listed a number of the financial services companies he has met. How many of those seeking alternative locations to the City of London or the United Kingdom are looking at Ireland? What are the prospects of relocation?

With regard to skill transfers, I was listening to "Morning Ireland" this morning and a number of people, particularly of the Muslim religion, working in tech or finance are looking to move out of the United States. Does the Taoiseach have a strategy to ensure they would find a safe and welcoming home in Ireland?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

We will have to take a couple of minutes from the third group of questions.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Apple was not discussed at Davos. To answer Deputy Adams, the Government profoundly disagrees with the European Commission and its analysis, and has no choice but to take an appeal to the European Court of Justice to annul the decision. More than 70% of the Dáil voted to support the Government's decision to appeal in September 2016. Ireland did not give favourable treatment to Apple. It does not do deals in this regard and no fine or penalty has been levied against the Irish State. This is important from the point of view of the integrity of the Revenue Commissioners over many years. We do not want a situation where, were this to be accepted by Ireland, it would send out a signal to all other companies that sweetheart deals were being done.

The European Commission has explicitly stated the decision does not call into question Ireland's general tax system or its corporate tax rate, and at present no other companies are subject to this decision by the European Commission. The appeal is under way and was prepared by the Attorney General. It is the subject of open legal proceedings and obviously it will take its course through the European court system. Nevertheless, Ireland is obliged to comply with the binding articles of the decision regarding recovery, which are set out in the final two pages of the document. This includes the order to calculate the exact amount of the aid and the process which ensures it is recovered from the Apple companies. Ireland is not subject to any fine, as I stated, arising from the decision itself, but could be subject to action, including the threat of fines, if sufficient progress is not made to satisfy the Commission, and we are aware of this. Work was ongoing throughout 2016 to ensure the State complies with all our obligations, which involves a high degree of co-operation with the Apple company. It is a very technical and complicated issue.

I agree with Deputy Martin. Ireland has been extraordinarily successful over many years under many Governments in its foreign direct investment policy. The Deputy's city of Cork is evidence of this, with EMC, Apple and many others which are so proud to be there. They are very happy with the reception and facilities they have. This is something we want to grow and build for the future.

I discussed the question of the Good Friday Agreement and its future implementation following the elections in Northern Ireland with, hopefully, a working executive and the involvement of the British Government after it exits from the European Union, and the issue of complying with European law here in so far as it is an internationally binding agreement. We will have more discussions on this.

I am sure Deputy Howlin would enjoy Davos if he went there, not that I have seen much of it when I have been there. With regard to the papers he mentioned, options have been considered and set out for analysis if a decision has to be made on X or Y. We are clear that Britain will leave the Single Market. I can give up to date information on what has been prepared on consideration of the customs union, but this may not include the options that will be set out. We will have to consider all of this.

With regard to people I met in Davos, some will move and they will make their announcements in their own way. They are very happy to do so. These are business people. They make decisions irrespective of politics. They want to know the facilities we have here, such as language, schools, opportunities for investment, availability of commercial space and opportunities from London, but mostly it is with regard to being part of the Single Market with access to a churn of talent coming through from other countries. I know some will make decisions and others are considering it. We will invite them here to see how it works and to speak to the Central Bank if they are in financial services. We will do the same with companies which might wish to relocate here from the United States.