Dáil debates

Wednesday, 18 January 2017

2:05 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach if he has had any meetings to discuss issues concerning Brexit with officials in his Department recently. [40120/16]

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach if he has held any meetings with officials in the international, European Union and Northern division of his Department relating to Brexit since 1 December 2016. [1714/17]

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 and 3 together.

I meet regularly with officials in my Department to discuss all areas of policy, including Brexit, which fall under the remit of my Department.

The amalgamated international, EU and Northern Ireland division of my Department was set up to ensure that Brexit is treated as a crucial cross-cutting issue. The work of the division includes supporting the Cabinet Committee on Brexit and the Cabinet Committee on European Affairs.

There is ongoing interaction daily between the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. The relevant teams in both Departments are in constant contact to ensure that a comprehensive whole-of-Government approach to a wide range of issues, including Brexit, is provided.

In addition to the regular engagement between the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade, there is ongoing interaction across all Departments on the range of EU issues, including through regular meetings of the senior officials group on the EU and the interdepartmental group on Brexit.

Photo of Robert TroyRobert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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This is the first question that my party leader tabled before Christmas. As a party, we had and continue to have genuine concerns that not enough is being done to meet the challenges this country faces following Brexit and yesterday's speech has given rise to extreme concern for Irish business. The evidence is that the UK Government has decided that there will be a customs border on this island and that Single Market rights will not apply to North-South or east-west trade. It is saying that it is not seeking a special status for Northern Ireland. If it is not sought, it will not be granted.

The Taoiseach does not need me to tell him how reliant so many of our companies are on trade with the UK. Since the vote, they have faced challenges in terms of currency fluctuations in the value of the English pound and the euro. This has had a detrimental effect on many industries, including the mushroom industry and other food industries where the margins are very low. What will this Government do to support such industries? If tariffs are placed on trade between the UK and Ireland, there is a real risk that good quality jobs, particularly jobs outside of large urban areas, could be lost.

Photo of Mary Lou McDonaldMary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The question tabled by my party leader, an Teachta Adams, was specifically about meetings relating to Brexit since 1 December. The Taoiseach might clarify the position in terms of that timeline.

I raised these issues with the Taoiseach earlier and the lack of coherence in the Government's approach to the issue is alarming. I know the Taoiseach could stand up again and list all the different issues that are a worry, but that is not good enough at this stage. Deputy Troy rightly cited deep concerns about vulnerable jobs throughout the country. He mentioned the mushroom industry. I remember as far back as August when I was in Tipperary town working on a different issue. As it happened, 60 or 70 jobs were lost in Tipperary - deep in the south - and those losses were attributed to sterling fluctuations, Brexit, uncertainty and so forth. For the people of Tipperary, all of a sudden the reality of Brexit was no longer a matter of concern for those up in the North. It was very much on their own doorsteps. I use that as a single illustration.

We all have a responsibility to ensure that we come to a coherent position on these matters. It is in all of our interests. There is no sense that the Taoiseach's Administration is anywhere close to that. It sounds to me as though the Taoiseach is taking the position that it is everyone's responsibility, and therefore no one's responsibility, to have a plan - not a list of aspirations - for all of Ireland. The Taoiseach is well off the pace in that regard.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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These two questions relate to meetings the Taoiseach has had. I will keep my other question relating to the outcome of the European Council meeting until later.

Yesterday I was trying to get a handle on the structure within the Department of the Taoiseach and the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade in terms of the preparation for these meetings, including the Taoiseach's preparation for the meetings. Who is the lead official dealing with Brexit? Is it the second Secretary General in the Taoiseach's Department or the second Secretary General in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade? What structure is in place for the European affairs and Northern Ireland divisions within the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade to input into the unit that the Taoiseach has expanded within his Department, as European affairs moved over to the Department of the Taoiseach in the last Administration?

There are now three units. There is a European affairs unit in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and there is another one in the Department of the Taoiseach and there is a Northern Ireland element in both the Department of the Taoiseach and in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. What is the line of management? How is this co-ordinated? All of us are profoundly worried after the very hard line position enunciated by Prime Minister May yesterday.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I raised this issue with the Taoiseach on numerous occasions, both as Tánaiste working with him in government and subsequent to the general election. I see no compelling evidence that this Government is ready to face the difficulties and rigours that the Brexit negotiations will bring. I advised the Taoiseach months ago to give consideration to the giving of responsibility to a senior Cabinet Minister who would be the line leader because, as Taoiseach of the country, inevitably he is not able to do everything himself.

Perhaps the Taoiseach will enlighten us because there are interdepartmental rivalries. His Department has grown bigger, yet we have expert diplomats in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade who will have to do an awful lot of the groundwork. However, where are the skilled negotiators of trade deals and the skilled lawyers? We have outstanding people who have served at a very high level at different times and in different functions in the European Union, yet we get the sense that the Taoiseach is top-down on his own expanding Department and that there is a rather more minor role given to the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade.

As a country, we are not putting our best foot forward in protecting our interests as well as those of the North and the whole island. The Taoiseach owes us a convincing explanation.

It is one thing to be able to whisper in Angela Merkel's ear but trade negotiations are tough stuff in which experts need to be involved.

2:15 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The reason I set up a specific Cabinet committee, which I chair, is that the European Council decided that the political oversight of the negotiations conducted on behalf of the European Union by Michel Barnier will rest with the European Council, that is, the leaders - prime ministers and so on - of the governments of the 27 other member states. Every Minister feeds into the Cabinet committee and, as needs be, Ministers are asked to respond in respect of the challenges Brexit presents to their Department, line Department or whatever. We have people in the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade who have skill in diplomacy and other areas and, as I mentioned yesterday, we have a range of skills available to the Government to deal with the issues that arise.

Deputy Burton spoke about the difficulties and rigours. Negotiations have not even started yet. Since last October, people have been calling on the British Government to give clarity. What we needed was an understanding of what the proposition will be for the future relationship of the United Kingdom with the European Union. We have a declaration from the British Prime Minister as to what that means. We now have to consider that once Article 50 is triggered.

Article 50 is a simple article which states that once a letter is received by the European Commission indicating an intent to leave the European Union, there are two years to carry out negotiations. If, at the end of the two years, negotiations have not been completed, the country in question will no longer be a member of the EU.

Photo of Joan BurtonJoan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That will be tested in court.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Extending this period would require unanimous approval by the European Council. In theory, given that this has never happened previously, the formal negotiations as to the kind of framework that would apply should only begin then because the article states that the future framework must be taken into account before the country leaves the EU. How can it be taken into account if one has not defined what it actually means? These will be highly complex considerations and there will be rigours and complications.

In respect of Deputy Mary Lou McDonald's point, we have had the first meeting of the all-island forum and 12 sectoral groups are now meeting. The second meeting of the all-island forum will take place on 17 February. The issues we have raised and which have been agreed at the North-South Ministerial Council and other locations were referred to specifically by the British Prime Minister yesterday. Clearly, there are matters of serious import but I assure the House that we have been preparing for this for some time without knowing the details of what decisions would be made.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Will the Taoiseach outline the structure involved in that?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Ireland is better prepared for this than most other countries. It may not be of interest to some other countries that there is an election under way in Northern Ireland. I heard the Prime Minister state yesterday that all the devolved administrations would be represented on the British negotiation team. I have outlined our priorities on many occasions.

While I am not responsible for the issue of sterling, it has clearly caused a problem for Bord Bia - we heard figures of between €300 million and €500 million - and the mushroom industry. The Government has responded to that immediate problem by making available low interest, long-term credit. We need to look at new markets for Ireland in the eurozone and beyond. I met last week with officials from the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation who outlined a whole programme of events and opportunities for Ministers, agencies and businesses to promote their business in new markets. These will, I hope, consolidate these companies and employment.

I have offered to give regular briefings to the parties about Brexit issues as they arise.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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If we had a Department with responsibility for Brexit, we would know who was responsible for what.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The second Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach is the person in charge of the Brexit negotiations. Senior officials are called together on a regular basis and there is liaison with Belfast, London and Brussels. They are all subject to his call.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Will the Taoiseach have an organigram done and circulated to us?

Photo of Seán Ó FearghaílSeán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Ceann Comhairle)
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Given the time, we will proceed to Question No. 4.