John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am grateful to the Cheann Comhairle for listing this issue among the Topical Issue matters for today. I thank the Minister of State, Deputy McEntee for dealing with this.

A lot of media and public attention has correctly been focused on the emerging administrative, management oversight, employee, auditing and financial aspects of the Console scandal, but there is, as I am sure the Minister of State will appreciate, another dimension to this story of equal importance, which until today has not gathered much traction. That concerns the clients the charity serves. The focus over the last two weeks has correctly been on the emerging scandalous management of what is known as the national suicide charity, Console.

While the mismanagement of Console has been to the forefront and the news has focused on how the organisation was managed essentially as a constant credit supply to its chief executive without proper supervision or auditing, while simultaneously being in receipt of significant State funding, I am sure the Minister of State will agree that there are voices which have not been heard and which have been given little volume since the story first broke. They are the voices of clients who, most disturbingly, seem to be the very last to be considered as talk of a wind-down of Console gains traction.

The question of what would happen to the clients of Console arose once last week. They are the individuals who turned to its counselling service for help because they were suicidal or had familial experience of suicide. One answer suggests the services of Console will be transferred to another agency. Several agencies have been mentioned in this context. Neither of the two agencies I have heard mentioned specialises in the services offered by Console in the past ten or 15 years and this point has been made in the media and on social media. As the Minister of State is aware, Console is specialised and provides bereavement counselling services. A profound challenge which is unlikely to be met by those responsible for dealing with the financial and administration issues which have arisen concerns where the clients have been left. The CEO of the HSE moved today to address some of these issues but in a general way. However, I very much welcome his intervention and some of what he said. The HSE has contingency plans in place which involve maintaining the existing services and replacement services. I wish to focus on replacement services.

After the Minister of State responds, I may have further questions to ask.

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. As he rightly stated, the revelations relating to Console in recent weeks have, unfortunately, once again sent shockwaves through our very small nation. While we are a small nation, we are very generous and have always given to charitable organisations. Therefore, something like this is very upsetting not only for those who are availing of the service but also for those who work in the organisation.

Console is one of the charities funded in part through the HSE's National Office for Suicide Prevention. The services it provides are counselling therapy and support services for people who have been bereaved by suicide and they have a huge benefit for many individuals. The HSE audit of Console was initiated in April 2015 by the National Office for Suicide Prevention following an examination of the 2013 records from Console to the HSE which were received in late 2014. The HSE has confirmed that concerns arose in a number of areas, including corporate governance and the financial management of the agency. Concerns had been raised in 2009 by the HSE about Console's cashflow, resulting in certain controlled actions being taken at the time by the National Office for Suicide Prevention. In 2014 the HSE put in place a revised governance framework for all organisations funded by it. A question has been raised about the new revised framework which did not work. I have been informed that at the time the HSE was confident the matters that had been raised would be resolved and its aim was to work with the organisation and ensure the services remained. We now know that there was much more to it.

The need to maintain public confidence in the charities sector is of the utmost importance, particularly in view of the excellent work carried out in the sector which is of benefit to the most vulnerable people in society. I fully support the involvement of the Charities Regulatory Authority in this matter. As all Deputies are aware, An Garda Síochána is also involved at this stage. While it is a serious matter that needs to be comprehensively investigated, it is important that the services offered by Console not be affected.

The Deputy has rightly said much of the media attention has been on the scandal of the mismanagement of funding, but all the while consideration by the HSE of alternative service options has been under way and worked through in parallel with this process. While I cannot comment on some of the work being undertaken, there are two groups of people whom we need to ensure are looked after properly. We need to ensure we look after the service users, their families and friends in order they will know the service they have been receiving until now has been the correct and proper service. We also need to ensure the counsellors, staff and volunteers who are also victims do not feel abandoned by us and that they know, whether they move to another organisation and whether the services needed are created somewhere else, that they are part of it and not left behind. That has been my priority throughout. It has also been the HSE's priority and needs to continue to be our priority.

John Lahart (Dublin South West, Fianna Fail)
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I am grateful and know that the users of the service will also be. The Minister of State has her finger on the pulse and it sounds as though she has had her finger on it since the issue began. She knows and appreciates that the relationship between a counsellor and a client is special and confidential. A number of questions might be going through the minds of clients about alternative or replacement services, particularly for those in a vulnerable position. They may be wondering whether they will see the same counsellor again, if the same counsellor will be available to them in a replacement service and where will they see the counsellor. They may be wondering who will be responsible for their case notes if there is a replacement service, where the case notes are now and whether they are the responsibility of the counsellor or Console. They may also be wondering who will make contact to inform them. If Console has responsibility for the details and case notes, will they, without the knowledge of the client, be passed on to another organisation designated to do the work of Console? While Mr. David Hall and his team are to be commended - they may be attempting to address the financial and administrative issues - it is important to distinguish between the relative ease in the business world with which clients can be transferred from one business to another after a liquidation and the sensitivity surrounding the issue.

When the CEO of the HSE speaks about contingency planning and replacement services, it needs to be spelled out a little more. The board of Console will meet this evening and I understand the Minister of State may not be able to spell it out now, but it is a question that must be answered. I note from Console's website that its plans for later in the calendar year are still being advertised. Does the Minister of State agree that it is vital to keep the counsellors and clients of Console fully briefed on ongoing developments? Does she understand the sensitivity of the issues surrounding the replacement of services as opposed to their continuation? Does she agree that should Console be wound down, the services it has offered will still be badly needed? What contingency plan does she or the HSE have in place to meet this possibility? Is she committed to the continued funding of mental health services, specifically for those bereaved by suicide? Will she reassure the clients of Console that their needs will be placed front and centre, as they appear to be, and that this will continue to happen as the scandal reaches its conclusion?

Helen McEntee (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I assure the Deputy, the staff, counsellors, patients and service users of Console that how this issue has affected and will affect them has been to the forefront. The reason we have not heard many comments on it from me, the Department of Health and the HSE in recent weeks, in the past week in particular, is it is sensitive and we want to ensure they are briefed and happy with what is happening, that whatever process happens next is right and suits their needs and that the service provided will continue. That is the priority.

The Deputy mentioned the provision of information for service users.

4 o’clock

The HSE and all public staff have responsibilities under data protection legislation. These responsibilities ensure personal data such as medical records are used and shared appropriately and legally, that they are stored securely, that they are not disclosed to unauthorised third parties and that they are disposed of appropriately when no longer required. They will apply to any information on service users, regardless of whether it is transferred to another service.

Moving forward and to follow on from our discussion last night, it is welcome that the Minister will now commence section 4 of the Charities Act, that this will give the regulator more power and that more money is being raised to hire more staff to carry out its duties. Now more than ever we need to make sure people have confidence in these organisations in order that, wherever the service users will move to, they will have confidence in that organisation. A lot of confidence has been knocked and, unfortunately, what has happened at Console and one or two other organisations previously has left a bad taste in people's mouths. However, it is not the norm. Therefore, we need to make sure there is a proper regulatory body that can act and make sure something like this will not happen again. I again reassure the Deputy that the service users, counsellors and staff working within Console are and will continue to be at the forefront of everything we are doing.