Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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8. To ask the Taoiseach the average wage for child care workers; and how this compares to European Union and Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development figures. [17147/16]

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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The exact information the Deputy is looking for is not currently available. The statistics on the average wages are compiled from the quarterly earnings, hour and employment costs surveys, EHECS, the periodic labour costs surveys and structure of earnings surveys conducted under EU regulations. While these surveys include breakdowns by sector and by occupation, the figures do not include a separate breakdown with regard to the child care sector. Accurate results at this level of detail cannot be provided from sample surveys.

In the EU statistical classification of economic activities in the European community, NACE, revision 2 system, child day care activities are classified as a sub-group of NACE code 88, social work activities without accommodation. Figures are available for the latter sector from the quarterly EHECS survey, showing an average earning per week of €465.12 in the fourth quarter of 2015. This is the average earning for all occupations working in the social work activities without accommodation sector.

Some comparative EU statistics are available for the social work activities sector from the 2012 EU labour costs survey. Annual earnings in the social work activities sector in Ireland were €32,896 in 2012, the fourth highest average earnings in the EU. The UK had a comparative figure of €28,583, while the EU average was €25,468.

Average hourly earnings for the social work activities sector are also available from the 2012 EU labour cost survey and show that Ireland earned the fourth highest average hourly earnings in the EU, with mean hourly earnings of €20.21. This compares to mean hourly earnings of €15.87 in the UK and a €15.76 average across the EU. Denmark recorded the highest average hourly earnings in this sector with a figure of €26.70.

There are no comparative earnings statistics available on child care workers for Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development, OECD, member countries. The Central Statistics Office, CSO, is currently preparing updated results on the structure of earnings for the years 2011 to 2014 based primarily on administrative rather than survey data. Broad sectoral and occupational statistics from this source will be published before the end of July and more detailed breakdowns will be subsequently available on request from the CSO, subject to the confidentiality rules.

While this will enable a more detailed structural table than before, the CSO does not expect that it will be possible to provide tables on earnings on specific detailed occupation codes within the child care worker sector. To identify earnings of child care workers, individual occupations would need to be coded with a four-digit level of international standard classification of occupations. That does not occur currently.

Gino Kenny (Dublin Mid West, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Strangely enough, I received the Minister of State's response earlier on. It is a bit chaotic here because I was supposed to speak at 3.30 p.m. I was looking over the Minister of State's response and was listening to her when she was verbally responding. It is probably slightly misleading because I was just looking up the SIPTU average hourly rate for child care workers and it is €9.56. If a person is earning that, he or she will probably earn €380 per week for a very important job. I was at a major protest outside the Dáil about a year and a half ago about child care workers who have been so badly paid. There is a huge turnover of child care workers. The Government said that it would address it and so forth. From my research on this, Ireland had the highest cost of child care in the OECD but I do not know the position at this moment. It is a very important industry. It came into the news about two years ago because of the turnover of workers as well as job practice and employment legislation. I do not know if the Minister of State can comment on that.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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There is a variance between the details I read out and the information the Deputy got from SIPTU. SIPTU, in my opinion, classify child care workers at a different mean level. For argument's sake, the OECD and the CSO take child care workers as a sector. That could be somebody working in a crèche right up to somebody working for Tusla, as a clinical social care worker. That is where the mean figure is coming from.

I agree with the Deputy that we expect a very high standard, and rightly so, from our child care providers and yet they are probably among the lower-paid workers in the country. I was also at the protest outside the House a couple of years ago that the Deputy mentioned.

A great deal of work is being done with the sector. Many educational resources are being provided, including compensation for improvements in standards in the sector not only with regard to education but also in terms of facilities. However, the salary is very much on the lower end of the scale, which is why the Low Pay Commission and particularly the aspiration to move to the living wage are important policies for the Government. That is where I hope we would pursue it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am disappointed that there appears to be an incapacity within the system to get the average working wage for child care workers. I note the reply suggests that because it is a broader social work category which the CSO examines, it is not in a position to look at child care work. That is poor from a policy formulation perspective. We are not in a position to identify officially, and with statistical precision, what the average child care worker is being paid. That will clearly impact on policy development. We have all met with workers in the child care sector and there is a real issue in this regard. In fact, the sector is in crisis because of the downward spiral in wages. Many young students undertook early childhood studies and secured bachelor of arts degrees because, over the last decade, it was considered to be a growing issue and one the country wished to provide for and so forth. My view is that the sector is under the wrong Department. The sooner it is more aligned with education, the better. I tried to do it once but the Department of Justice and Equality wanted the responsibility under the current programme and then it moved to the Department of Children and Youth Affairs.

The salary levels are too low but it would be useful if we could have statistical work carried out on them. Many young people will not choose these courses in college or further education colleges because of the wage structures afterwards. There is a huge responsibility. All of the providers are at the end of their tether as well because of the various inspections and so forth, and then they cannot keep personnel in work because they wish to go elsewhere. The years from birth to three years of age are the most important three years in a person's development. They will learn more in those three years than they will learn for the rest of their lives and yet the level of wages for those workers, and I acknowledge there is a historical background to this, is way below anything in primary teaching or otherwise. Therefore, clear choices will be made where people have signed on for early childhood education due to a love of it and, after four or five years, there is no appreciable improvement in sight in terms of career prospects or wages. My concern is that there is a very bleak prospect for the sector in general and that we will go backwards in terms of attracting the right personnel into the sector with proper prospects.

I ask that the CSO looks again at how it is carrying out the various statistical analyses. From a policy perspective, this country should be seeking to get a proper understanding of what is happening with wages in the child care sector. I am not referring to the higher levels but to those not just in crèches but also in early schools, and the difference between what is happening in the private sector as opposed to the community sector and the State sector. There is an opportunity there to do something more fundamental. More, and more specific, statistics on the child care sector would be very welcome.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister of State said earlier that she does not agree that there is a race to the bottom, which does not mean there is no race to the bottom. There is. The child care sector employs approximately 25,000 women and, as Deputy Gino Kenny said, the average pay is €9.56 per hour. Many of the workers must do significant preparation and administrative work which in many cases is unpaid. That is unacceptable and causes burn out. In spite of the high cost of child care to parents, the educators on whom the quality of care depends are undervalued and underpaid. There is no job security or paid leave for many. Many child care workers are laid off in the summer months and many services are unable to pay staff for anything other than core hours. There is evidence that highly skilled graduates are being lost from the sector. The pay and conditions of child care workers must be a consideration for a quality child care system to work.

I understand the Department of Education and Skills is carrying out a comprehensive review of the education and training qualifications in early childhood education. When will that review be complete? Would it also be possible to carry out a review of wages paid to child care workers, with a view to introducing salary scales and raising payments accordingly? Will the Government also review the rights of child care workers with a view to strengthening and enhancing them?

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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There is a risk of straying into policy matters which have absolutely nothing to do with me, so I will reply to the questions on statistics and refer Deputy Adams and Deputy Martin to the relevant Ministers to discuss the policy issues they raise.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister of State is learning too quickly.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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I know my place. Regarding the data, I appreciate the constraints the Deputies mention in so far as we are only collecting them by sector and are not breaking them down by digits but we are not alone in that. Northern Ireland, the United Kingdom and the OECD countries collect the data in the same way we do. That is not to say it is the right way.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is masking the problem.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Yes, I know. However, it is not necessary to conduct a collective survey of every child care worker in the country to find out what the average wage is. If SIPTU can arrive at €9.56 for the average child care worker in preschool, obviously we can do it based on sample surveys. I say that because the cost prohibiting us collecting the data is relevant and we must be aware of that. However, let us have a look at it. Deputy Gino Kenny raised this in the first instance, so let us find out if we can get a sample of the particular sector we are discussing to see if it corroborates or matches what SIPTU has announced and perhaps that could feed into some policy decisions to which the Deputies are keen to have changes made. I can come back to the Deputies on it.