Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing this Topical Issue debate. This is a very important issue. Kerry Flyer has done excellent work in County Kerry over many years in providing much-needed transport which would not otherwise have been provided. Unfortunately, over the past while it has begun to tender and compete for work which had been done for decades by other private contractors. There have been instances in our county involving family businesses which have had school runs for 30, 35 or 40 years and were highly regarded in the locality. We feel it is unfair that Kerry Flyer can come in and take this work by tendering at a lower price, quite simply because it is subsidised. The Minister of State cannot get away from this fact. The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission must look at it closely. If someone is being subsidised to do work and someone else receives no subsidy, grant or assistance it is a no-brainer that the subsidised person will be able to be more competitive, but it is not fair. Somebody must look at this.

I thank Deputy Martin Ferris very much for his strong interest and work on this issue along with myself. We are highly concerned about what is happening in County Kerry. We really appreciate the private contractors for the work they have done. They have given excellent service.

Now, all their hard work is being taken away from them. I want Kerry Flyer to continue working and running its service but I also want our private bus contractors to continue running their services. Surely common sense can prevail. I again thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing this debate.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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Deputy Healy-Rae and I, along with others, met the private operators a number of weeks back. These people lost their jobs as a result of the tendering process, and they argued very eloquently that the process took place on an uneven playing pitch. Kerry Flyer, which has entered the market, tendered for eight bus runs and it was successful in five of those. That means five operators lost their jobs. I say it was an unequal competition because the State has subsidised Kerry Flyer with considerable funding over the years, particularly in the past two years, with €180,000 in 2014 and €174,000 this year; it will get €174,000 next year. This money has been awarded and some of it has been paid. The company may use some of the money for drivers, insurance, diesel, running costs such as maintenance and servicing and motor tax. One must also consider that Kerry Flyer has another advantage in its charitable status, meaning somebody must compete with that. Five operators are gone out of business as a consequence.

We suggested that these people should go to the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission. They did so and received a straightforward reply that from the information available, it did not find in the operators' favour. The commission indicated its "considerable" interest from the advocacy perspective and that it is currently preparing practical guidelines for policymakers to assist them in assessing proposals that may have implications for competition. It is clear that the commission is indicating that the policymakers - those of in the Chamber - are not living up to our obligations and responsibilities.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputies for raising this matter today. As they know, Bus Éireann operates the school transport scheme on behalf of my Department and it is a matter for Bus Éireann to make suitable arrangements for the procurement of contractors to provide services on its behalf for school transport purposes, taking cognisance of public procurement requirements.

Almost 90% of the vehicles used to deliver school transport services are provided by private operators under contract to Bus Éireann, which consist predominantly of smaller vehicles and includes over 800 taxis. Bus Éireann is obliged to tender all works, goods and services in line with the European directives on public procurement, including the services provided on its behalf under the school transport scheme. The procedure is a two-stage pre-qualification, PQQ, and tendering process separated out with different closing dates and times, conducted in accordance with the negotiated procedure under EU Directive 2004/17/EC. A contractor that satisfies the criteria set out in the PQQ will be invited to tender stage.

Bus Éireann has confirmed that on the basis of legal advice, the recipient of Government funding cannot be automatically excluded from participating in a public procurement tender competition. In these circumstances and with respect to Kerry school bus contractors, it is not open to Bus Éireann to exclude Kerry Flyer from this public procurement competition on the basis that it receives Government funding. I understand from Bus Éireann that Kerry Flyer was awarded five operating routes for the provision of school transport services for children with special educational needs in the tender competition for the provision of school transport services, fifth cycle. Bus Éireann further advise that these services are currently operating successfully.

I know a number of people have raised concerns but we must work this within procurement rules. Receipt of Government funding does not preclude the company from the process.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State and I appreciate his response but he is not addressing the issue. I am asking, in a very straightforward way, if it is right that one group of people which is tendering is State-subsidised, leaving the group with an unfair advantage over private operators. In the tender document, did that group declare if it was in receipt of State funding, as it was required to do? The Department has stated that no funding was used but the funding provided goes to support the salaries of the manager and staff, who in turn support the administration of the school contracts. The question must be asked as to whether the company will employ additional drivers to deliver these services or use drivers who currently deliver its own programme.

If the latter is the case, the company has an unfair competitive edge over private operators, which cannot subsidise employees without State funding. It is wrong. The Minister of State is a fair-minded man and can see the point we are making. What is happening now is not fair or right. There must be a rule somewhere that illustrates how this is not on at all.

Martin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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I thank the Minister of State for his reply but it misses our point. Money has been supplied to Kerry Flyer, such as €180,861 in 2014, for staff, including a driver. I do not know if the driver was driving the bus. It is noted as "operational funding" and it is clear that this can be used for motor tax, insurance, diesel and maintenance and repairs of the vehicle. In 2015, some €174,000 was allocated, and this will be repeated in 2016. That is the current position.

Many of the private contractors borrowed money to upgrade vehicles, in some cases making them wheelchair accessible, etc. They invested much money but these people are out of work because State funding is being used by an organisation. It is unfair competition at the very least. Having charitable status means the company is not obliged to pay tax but private companies must do so. They cannot compete as a result.

Damien English (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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It is not a case of not knowing the point being made because I can see the point. There is no issue in that regard and I understand what the Deputies are trying to say. They have asked about specific tender details but I do not have those documents and am not privy to them. I can try to see if I can get some information to enlighten the Deputies on the policy.

The difficulty is that Bus Éireann must operate within the rules, as the Deputies can appreciate. Those rules currently do not allow Bus Éireann to exclude Kerry Flyer or any other social enterprise solely because it has received Government funding. The procurement issue is that it cannot be prevented from tendering, and the company won the tender.

I will certainly get some of the answers to the Deputies' questions. Deputy Healy-Rae asked if there is some rule against this somewhere but there is none of which I am aware. Bus Éireann has taken strong legal advice and it is within the rules. The company can also see the points being made and everybody can appreciate the logic. The rules allow for this and Bus Éireann has no choice but to allow Kerry Flyer and other groups to tender for the routes. The rules are implemented in the same way throughout the country, and there are many rules concerning school transport that people may not like in a local area. They are the same throughout the country and they must be implemented in a standard way across the board.

I see the point made by the Deputies and I will certainly try to get the information they seek. I have not seen the contracts and that is not something that would come across my desk. It is the job of Bus Éireann to analyse the tenders within the rules of the policies set out.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Derek Keating has four minutes for his Topical Issue.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting the issue for debate tonight. I also thank the Minister of State, Deputy English, for coming in. Given the importance of this subject and the opportunity available to me under Standing Order 27A, as amended in October 2013, I would like to have this matter deferred until the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection or the Minister of State at the Department of Social Protection is available.

Liam Twomey (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy.