Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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188. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if he will provide, in tabular form, a list of the annual pension payments to former Ministers and taoisigh, sorted by payment, high to low, including the recipient's name. [18246/15]

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Janey Mac. Did the Deputy get lucky with the draw?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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So it seems.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Did the Deputy win the lotto?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I assure the Minister that I will never win the lotto.

I asked the Minister for a list, in tabular format, of the annual pension payments to former Ministers and Taoisigh, sorted from high to low, including the recipients' names. I do not know how he will deliver that response, but he might tell us whether he regards the payments as prudent, modest and sustainable.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I have provided a table which shows the pension amounts paid to former Ministers and Taoisigh in the last calendar year, 2014. All of the amounts shown are net of the public service pension reduction. In certain cases the pension amounts shown do not reflect the actual pension amount in payment where an individual is "gifting" all or part of his or her pension to the State, or where a pension is subject to certain provisions of the family law Acts.  It is not the policy of my Department to release personal information of that nature. I have the full list of payments to hand, but it is long and it would take up more time than I have available to read it. Would it be of assistance to read the top five names on the list?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Minister might have time to read ten names or perhaps more.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I have the names listed in order of payment.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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And so it rolls.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The payments decrease towards the bottom of the list. The smallest pension listed is €4,761.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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This issue has been raised time and again since the beginning of this Dáil term by me and others. When the figures are put into the public domain, like I am sure others, I am struck by the contrast in the regard shown for the recipients of these payments which I acknowledge are lawfully due and made and low paid workers within the civil and public service. It is probably opportune that a question has been raised about these bumper pensions for the great and the good on the same day that in this Chamber the Minister cannot make a commitment and has not mandated officials to zero in specifically on that set of workers within the civil and public service who do not earn a living wage.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Before what the Deputy is saying becomes part of her mantra, I must repeat that I have indicated that I am not going to indicate in this forum what instructions I have given to my negotiating team. I have said this in reply to Deputy Sean Fleming, as I have to the Deputy. It is not appropriate for her to determine what these instructions are because I am not in a position to reveal them. I do not know any negotiator who would set out his or her negotiating hand in advance.

The Deputy asked for a list of the pensions of senior politicians, including former Ministers and Taoisigh. Obviously, there are many in the public sphere in receipt of analogous pensions, including senior judges, senior members of An Garda Síochána, senior administrators in the public service and senior academics. It is important that pensions comprise an important part of the package available to get people to work in the public service. We will have to start discussing how we can ensure we get quality people to work in the public service because there will be pressures associated with the filling of senior positions when recovery comes and there will be much more lucrative opportunities in the private sphere.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am sure the Minister is not asserting that, if we want quality people working throughout the system, the only place there is a need for what he calls quality is at the top of the tree.

I am sure he will acknowledge that quality, ability and the capacity to live a decent basic lifestyle is something he wishes to afford to all public and civil servants. I have said this to him previously when we have debated these matters and I readily concede that all of this has become something of a mantra of mine and others in recent years. With all the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest, FEMPI, legislation, changes and reform that he claims have been introduced, the central disparity within the system - in which small numbers of people are overpaid and over-pensioned but as one moves down the chain people are on poverty wages, and we talk about the working poor but these are the working poor in the employment of the State - and the failure even to acknowledge that is quite astonishing.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I know this is an area the Deputy likes to milk for political reasons but, in truth, she knows that with respect to people of legal entitlements to pensions, we have brought in reductions to those pensions in so far as we can go on the advices that we have from the Attorney General. I have made that clear and have given the Deputy gross figures as opposed to reduced figures for all these recipients. We should not exclusively look at people who are in politics and exclude senior administrators, judges, senior gardaí and senior academics. If we are going to have quality people working in the public sphere, we need to acknowledge that we are going to have pay a reasonable rate for those jobs.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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At every level.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I am the son of a trade unionist and that in no way undermines the absolute case for having a fair rate at the lower end. It is something that I have spent my entire working life working for and my party's focus is to ensure that those who are the weakest are protected and that we support collective bargaining and provide decent wage rates for people who are least paid in society.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Then the Minister should deal with it in this round.