Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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5. To ask the Minister for Social Protection if she is aware of the concerns raised around the JobPath scheme and the reputation of the companies which have been selected to undertake it. [17375/15]

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Last year, the Minister announced a tender to outsource the privatised job activation services under the title of JobBridge. This followed a similar failed experiment in Britain. Some of the companies that were tendering had a dubious work record. Is the Minister confident that the companies to which she has granted the tender are free from such a history and will not repeat the manoeuvring and fraud in Britain in their contracts in Ireland?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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JobPath is specifically designed to help those jobseekers who are most distant from the labour market to gain sustained employment. JobPath companies will engage approximately 1,000 staff to provide services for up to 400,000 jobseekers over a four-year period. Following the completion of a public procurement process, two companies were selected to provide JobPath - Turas Nua Limited and Seetec Limited. The procurement process and the selection of the successful companies had specific regard to international experience of contracted out employment services. An Irish model was designed from this. The companies will deliver services directly and will engage a range of local subcontractors, including local training companies and local employment service providers.

Significant safeguards have been built into JobPath, including a service guarantee to ensure all participants receive a baseline level of service. Penalties will be imposed on the companies if service performance or quality does not meet the set standard. Most significantly, JobPath uses a payment-by-results model and all initial costs are borne by the companies. JobPath is so structured that the companies cannot recover their costs or make any profits unless and until they get people into sustainable jobs. These jobs must be for at least 30 hours per week. The rates paid to contractors are also linked to the performance of the wider economy. Automatic discounts or reductions in payments to contractors apply if employment growth exceeds our medium-term forecasts. In addition, both companies will be subject to regular on-site inspections and audits to ensure JobPath is delivered in accordance with contractual obligations.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Can the Minister indicate how many people she hopes to have placed in employment in the four-year period she mentioned? If that figure is achieved at an earlier stage, will that result in the termination of the JobPath programme?

The Minister also mentioned that the jobs they will be placed in need to be for at least 30 hours per week, but there is no minimum pay rate apart from the minimum wage. Given that these are workers, is it expected that - in contrast what happened in Britain, where most of those placed were put in the lowest-paid jobs available, with no view to long-term sustainability - they will benefit from the payment for the private company that wins the contract?

There is a programme within the Department of Social Protection, which I have lauded, of retraining workers in the former Department of Social Protection offices, now called Intreo offices, to deliver what the Minister is employing private companies to do. What will happen to those workers if the targets I expect she has set out for those companies are achieved?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy is aware that my objective as a Minister is to get this country back to full employment, and he knows from the most recent statistics that, although the live register in Ireland has fallen very dramatically, it was 343,000 or 346,000 when the figures from the end of April were published last week. The existing services of the Department are not sufficient to get as many as possible of those people back to work. Our very valuable case officers, activation officers and other officials of the Department of Social Protection will remain employed because the ratio of case officers to unemployed people is much lower than is the case internationally. They will be very busy, as are people who work in the local employment service, LES, and other local services that help people into employment and provide services to the Department.

The Deputy mentioned the United Kingdom a couple of times. I think he is aware that in general the Irish and UK models of social welfare have diverged very widely in recent years. The Irish JobPath model was designed following a review of contracting parties internationally, including in the Netherlands, the United States, Germany, Sweden, France, the UK, and, in particular, Australia. The Irish model, I am happy to say, will now be partially adopted by the Australians based on the work we have done, and a range of national and international experts are assisting in implementing a system under which people are supported in finding a job and getting back to work. That is what it is all about. It is overseen by people such as John Sweeney of the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, and is composed of a social partnership involving unions, the Government, employers and civil society, including Professor Philip O’Connell of University College Dublin, Aedín Doris from NUI Maynooth, and John Martin, the former director of employment, labour and social affairs at the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, OECD. The Deputy is obviously an expert on the English and Northern Ireland model, but our social welfare system is very different. I know the Deputy probably favours it, but I do not.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will ignore that last remark because it is not worth responding to.

The point I was making was that a model similar to this one was introduced twice in Great Britain, first under the new deal and then under the Conservatives. In the past, it was found that some of the companies, including one engaged by the Department of Social Protection, have appeared before the House of Commons committees that deal with wholesale fraud. What are the standards and punishments for any company awarded a four-year tender by the Government to deliver a public service? Will the Government end a company's tender if it is found to be engaged in wholesale fraud, as happened in Great Britain? Examples of such fraud have included forging documents and signatures of participants in a scheme similar to that spoken about by the Minister. In such instances, disabled people were called "lying, thieving bastards" by one of the companies with which the Minister hopes to have working links. What steps will she take to ensure that what happened in Great Britain does not happen here and that if it does happen, the contract ends?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Our model is a payment by results model. I am sure the Deputy is aware that it does not have anything to do with people with a disability. It concerns people who are receiving unemployment payments. It has nothing to do with people with a disability or invalidity, although I note that a few minutes ago, the Deputy seemed to be rightly concerned in calling for more opportunities for people with a disability.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I was talking about the attitude of the company.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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One speaker please.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We have designed an Irish model for Ireland. That may upset the Deputy because he is tied into the Northern Ireland model and has a vested interest-----

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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One speaker please. The Tánaiste has the floor.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Ó Snodaigh has a vested interest in the British model.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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The Tánaiste has the floor. Deputy Ó Snodaigh had his opportunity to speak.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We want to get all of the people who are unemployed in Ireland back to work. A significant number of people are working in the Department and a number of companies like the local employment services are working with us. Those resources are not sufficient to help all those who want to go back to work to get back to work. We have looked at best practice around the world to see how we get the best value. We have looked at countries like Sweden, the Netherlands and Australia to see how we get a system that works to the benefit of people who are unemployed and gets them back into work for at least 30 hours per week. The companies do not get payments unless they get results.

In his ignorance, the Deputy talks about people with a disability. This has nothing to do with people with a disability. It relates to people who are unemployed. Our system is an IT-based system. We have had a look at different schemes around the world. My understanding is that during the period in Great Britain referred to by the Deputy, the system was paper-based and was unable to track. We also have a feedback system from the people who are our clients and who participate in any of these programmes. This feedback system is very important to us. Our IT system is designed to tell us when somebody gets a job because if they get a job, they will, of course, appear in the Revenue Commissioners' data as being at work because they will have a commencement notice with the Revenue Commissioners in respect of starting work. We actually have a very elaborate system of verifying what the companies are doing.

If the companies do not produce results that are positive for our customers they will not be paid.