Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to raise the issue of the unedifying spectacle of the HSE threatening legal injunctions against the Health Information and Quality Authority, HIQA, in the context of an investigation into quality, patient safety and standards of service at the Midland Regional Hospital, Portlaoise. The background to this is that, more than one year ago, the chief medical officer, Dr. Tony Holohan, conducted a report as a result of perinatal deaths at the hospital. His report, which was an initial conclusion, did not pull too many punches. He said that families and patients were treated in a poor and, at times, appalling manner, with limited respect, kindness, courtesy and consideration. He said that information that should have been given to families was withheld for no justifiable reason, poor outcomes that could likely have been prevented were identified and known by the hospital but not adequately and satisfactorily acted upon, the Portlaoise hospital maternity services, PHMS, could not be regarded as safe and sustainable under their governance arrangements, many organisations had information regarding the safety of the PHMS that could have led to earlier intervention had it been brought together, and the external support from and oversight by the HSE should have been stronger and more proactive.

As a result, the then Minister for Health, Deputy Reilly, decided to initiate the HIQA investigation into the safety, quality and standards of service provided by the HSE to patients in the Midland Regional Hospital, a broader investigation in many ways. Over the past year, HIQA has been engaged in that exercise. Obviously, the then Minister believed that this was a serious matter, given the report of the chief medical officer. Eighty-five families have provided information to the HIQA investigation.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question, please.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We need to be sensitive to the parents of babies who have died at the hospital and their absolute need for the full truth to emerge unhindered.

I put it to the Taoiseach that this could be a defining moment for HIQA, its independence and its capacity to investigate without being emasculated, undermined or, to put it more bluntly, told to "shut up" or to pull its punches behind the scenes. I have read the correspondence that has either been leaked or distributed by the HSE, which seems to believe that the investigation should be a joint process between HIQA and it. Today, the Minister spoke about a bilateral process having been agreed by both organisations - the entity that is investigating and the entity that is the subject matter of the investigation. There is a certain irreconcilability about such a process. I want the Taoiseach to confirm something to me.

I do not think it is a case of the Government being detached from the issue. The Minister has not affirmed the independence of HIQA in the conduct of this very important investigation. Its independence is at stake. Does the Taoiseach accept and affirm the independence of the Health Information and Equality Authority in this investigation? Will he indicate when he now expects the report to be published?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank the Deputy for raising this as it is a serious matter. It is a sensitive issue because it refers to parents and the birth of children. Yesterday the Minister publicly affirmed the absolute independence of HIQA. The letters from the HSE to which the Deputy referred have, according to Mr. Tony O'Brien, been published on its website and speak for themselves. It is regrettable that this has taken place in this fashion. It is not the first time that agencies of the State have taken legal action against each other. In the closing paragraph of the HSE letter it is stated that it will withdraw from what it calls the "extraordinary position" of having to seek advice of counsel in respect of going to court. The Minister has intervened to say it is not appropriate that taxpayers' money should be used to settle a row between two agencies of State. I am glad that, following a meeting last week, a way forward has been found. As I said, the Minister has affirmed the absolute independence of HIQA and a way has been found to deal with this matter which involves sitting down and working it out. I cannot indicate when the report will be published. It would be wrong to publish what is currently a draft report, but the matter needs to be dealt with taking into account the responsibilities of the HSE, the independence of HIQA and the requirement to send a report to the Minister which he will receive, consider and publish.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The language used by the Taoiseach goes to the core of the problem. He has said they are "sitting down and working it out." Working what out?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The difference between the findings and the assessment of the HSE.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I accept the need for fair procedure and due process but the idea now seems to be emerging that, behind the scenes, the two bodies are going to sit down and work it out. Work what out? The job of HIQA is to investigate and come to conclusions. These conclusions may be unpalatable to the HSE, but their full extent and range should not be up for grabs or "sorted out" behind the scenes. Are they going to go through the report conclusion by conclusion? Will HIQA's report ultimately be fatally undermined by the bilateral process of working it out in this way? Will the Taoiseach elaborate?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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HIQA's report has not been accepted by the HIQA board yet.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It has not been put to it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It has not been accepted by the HIQA board yet. It is a draft report. The investigating independent authority is HIQA.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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With respect, the Taoiseach should change his terminology. He is playing with words. It suggests the board is against the investigation.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy knows the procedure and should resume his seat. The Taoiseach to continue, without interruption.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister has reaffirmed the independence of HIQA. This is a draft report which has not been finalised by the HIQA board. The HSE contests elements of what HIQA has put into the draft report and did intend to proceed to a court hearing on the matter. The Minister has said this is not appropriate and I agree with him. It is a case of the HSE answering the charges made in the draft HIQA report and when the discussions are concluded, I expect there will be a report that can be finalised, agreed and sent to the Minister for consideration and publication.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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What the Taoiseach is saying is very worrying.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy might prefer the way it was done in the Department of Education during the years when, for example, taxpayers' money was used to go to court to ascertain the rights of children with particular challenges, but in this case HIQA has made a report which was initiated by the previous Minister for Health. It has made certain findings, but it is a draft, not a finalised report.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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It is about protecting the senior staff and blaming the nurses.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The HSE is entitled to answer the charges made against it by HIQA, as the Deputy is well aware. That is the way the draft report will become a finalised report.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Who is the chairman of the board of HIQA?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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HIQA has found against the HSE in a whole range of areas, as referred to in the published correspondence.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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We do not know that; we do not know anything about it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A way has been found to have this proceed without a court case.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The entity being investigated is selectively leaking what is going on.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy never listens.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Is there any political influence on the board of HIQA?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I remind Deputies that there is a system in place for these debates.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy should be asked to withdraw that comment.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Government has claimed for months that the anti-water charges campaign is on its last legs, but the huge turnout of citizens at the right to water rally in this city last Saturday gives the lie to these claims. Contrary to the Government's assertions ,citizens are more determined than ever on this issue. They have told the Government that they cannot and will not pay its water charge and that Irish Water is a toxic quango that should be abolished. Instead of listening to all of the warnings and the hundreds of thousands who have demonstrated and instead of scrapping water charges, water charge protestors were jailed, local authorities were forced to hand over details of tenants, while landlords were forced to do the same. The Government wasted €650,000 on a new advertising campaign and gave away €85 million of taxpayers' money to private consultants, as well as wasting €539 million on water meters. Now the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, is threatening to take water charges from people's wages or social welfare payments. Does the Taoiseach support the Minister in his latest threat? Will the Taoiseach explain the legal basis for the process he has indicated? Will he tell the Dáil how the Government intends to distinguish between those who cannot pay the water tax and those who will not pay?

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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Who will not pay? Deputy Gerry Adams will not pay.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am happy to note that 1.23 million people have signed up with Irish Water.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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They have signed up for the conservation grant.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Some 250,000 are not Irish Water customers, but they will qualify for assistance from the Department of Social Protection. This morning I listened to one of the Deputy's left-wing colleagues talking about paying for this through transaction taxes, corporation taxes and general taxation and his own party has put forward propositions that are wildly off the mark.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not the only party to be wildly off the mark.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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We are already paying for water.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy says we are already paying for it.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Yes, we are.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is a case of "I'm all right Jack," but what about the people who have inferior water supplies? What about the people who have no sewerage systems?

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Try fixing the leaks.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is not the leader of his party yet. Will he settle down, please? Deputy Gerry Adams is well able to look after himself.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I would be interested to hear how Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett is going to solve the problems in his own area where thousands of houses appear to be connected to a water supply via lead piping. This is not satisfactory, which is why we need an entity that is able to borrow separately from the Government and invest to fix supplies for the future. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government is dealing with the problem. He has not yet brought his propositions to the Government for consideration and decision, but he will do so shortly.

The Government will ensure that the legislation sets out the criteria for full compliance with the law in respect of the modest contribution that is involved of €1.15 or €3 per week depending on the number of persons in the household. That will come before Government in the near future and it will consider the propositions from the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and make its decision.

As the Deputy is aware, in cases where people genuinely have a real difficulty in paying, there are always opportunities to give assistance, as has applied to schemes over the years.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What schemes are those?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Government listened very carefully to the many thousands of people who expressed their anxiety and concern and reduced the charges to a very modest contribution of €1.15 and €3 per week. The Cabinet will consider and decide on the propositions from the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government in terms of the legislation to ensure full compliance here.

As Deputy Adams is aware, the prices have been set out to 2019 and no other utility facility has been priced in that way with regard to water rates. For the people all over the country, the 1.29 million who have signed up, the compliant number of those who are Irish Water customers, they have a sense that this is an important element of our country moving forward. For those who decide that they will not pay, they are not being fair to those who understand that water is a precious commodity. To have high quality water and proper sewerage schemes requires investment on a major scale and it cannot be done under the discredited system that we have had for the last 40 years.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I asked the Taoiseach three questions and he ignored two of them. I will repeat them. Does the Taoiseach support the Minister, Deputy Kelly, in his latest effort to impose attachment orders, and how does the Government propose to distinguish between those who cannot pay and those will not pay his water tax?

Eric Byrne (Dublin South Central, Labour)
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People like the Deputy are on the public record as saying they will not pay, and the Deputy is one of them. He is a sponger.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Byrne, please settle down. The Deputy is back in business now, he has had his holiday. Deputy Adams, please proceed.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There was a time Eric, it was back in 1985 I think-----

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy had a ticket in his back pocket.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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I remember when he was very poor.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was in 1985, 1986, 1987.

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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In fairness, he was going to pay but he changed his mind.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Butler, the Taoiseach does not need your help at this stage.

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy used to get cheap flights to Cuba; they were flights from Shannon to Cuba.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Adams, please proceed.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It is interesting that this latest threat to working people is coming from the labour wing of the Fine Gael Party and the heckling is coming from one of his sidekicks but maybe the Taoiseach will answer this question because it was also revealed at the weekend that there are no records and no minutes of important meetings that were held in 2012 between the former Minister, Phil Hogan-----

Timmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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It is a bit like the kangaroo courts.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----and key players in Irish Water. In the light of the scandal around the huge sums of public money spent on consultants, will the Taoiseach agree that this is an extraordinary revelation? During Irish Water's first six months, from April to September 2012, 23 meetings took place between Bord Gáis and the Department but only ten were minuted. There were four meetings between the former Minister, Phil Hogan, and the Bord Gáis officials, two of them with the Bord Gáis chairwoman. It is certainly not creditable that meetings took place about the establishment of a major new public utility but no notes were taken at any of these meetings. Has the Taoiseach spoken to the former Minister, Phil Hogan, about this? Does he agree that this scenario is unacceptable? Will he also agree, given the issues at stake, that an Oireachtas inquiry into this entire matter is needed? Will he please answer my earlier two questions?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I support the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and I await him coming before Cabinet with his proposals to ensure there is fairness and equality of treatment here and compliance in respect of the modest contribution that is required for water. Obviously, we will consider and decide on the proposals the Minister will bring to Cabinet. I support him in what he is trying to do to provide a proper high quality water supply for businesses and consumers alike and to provide our country with an investment capacity to deal with the grossly inferior sewerage systems that apply in many parts of the country.

In respect of meetings that have taken place, let me assure the Deputy that the independent regulatory authority has signed off on elements of this in terms of the set up costs for Irish Water. The Cabinet approved all the major decisions in respect of Irish Water and the Minister has already answered many questions on that.

As I said to the Deputy, the position is that 1.23 million have signed up and I hope many more will. About 250,000 of those are not directly customers of Irish Water but they will have the opportunity to claim the assistance support from the Department of Social Protection and, as in any other scheme, equality and fairness is very important here.

As the Deputy is well aware, a few months ago he was very much in support of making his payments because he realised the importance of good, clean water but he listened to the populist drum and changed his tack.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I asked about having an Oireachtas inquiry into the matter.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister is quite prepared to answer any questions here or at the Oireachtas committee. There is no need for a formal investigation because these matters have been signed off on both by Cabinet and the regulatory authority, and the Minister has answered questions right along the line in this regard.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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Post offices play a crucial role in the social and economic life of our communities throughout Ireland. Recently, we have seen the closure of small shops, schools, Garda stations and other community focus points, particularly in the rural areas. Post offices are the largest retail network in the country, with 1,150 post offices employing 3,700 people. Some 1,100 of those post offices are operated by postmasters who are locally based small and medium businesses providing employment, facilitating economic activity and providing community engagement. There is a world class IT structure in place in these post offices, which is technically capable of being of the same quality as what is in place in the GPO in Dublin. That spells out that they could offer the same services as those provided in the central post offices. Also, 1,7 million customers avail of the services of post offices each week.

Recently, we have seen thousands of letters coming out from the office of the Tánaiste's and Minister for Social Protection encouraging people to change from their post office financial services to the banks. That will have a major detrimental effect-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question, please, Deputy. Thank you.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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------in that people are being encouraged to receive their payments directly to their bank accounts rather than collecting them in the post office. We are all well aware that more than 30% of the post office business is social welfare payments and taking those crucial services from post offices will only accelerate closures.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to put his question.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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Also, many people do not realise that they will pay the banks for this service while there is no cost for the service in the post office. Will the Taoiseach talk to the Tánaiste and the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Alex White, about this and intervene directly? This should not be allowed to continue. Will the Taoiseach recognise that the post office network is a national asset and ensure its future by making it the provider of choice and the front office for all Government services, for instance, for the payment of the various local authority charges-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is way over time.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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-----motor tax, hospital charges etc.-----

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Government does not care.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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-----and secure the role of the post offices in delivering all social welfare payments into the future.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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These are some of the letters that have been sent out.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Tom Fleming for his question. This is an important issue in rural Ireland. The world in which we live has changed very much over the past ten to 30 years.

Some 24 post offices were closed since 2010 and 197 closed between 2006 and 2010, figures that speak for themselves. Post offices were an important social element of rural Ireland. In many cases, post offices were part of a small shop, a supermarket, a petrol filling station or other facilities that grew over the years. In other cases, there was just a post office in the corner room of a house. Over the years, postmasters and postmistresses moved on and things changed with the digital and electronic worlds. The Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Alex White, appointed a group to look at this. The terms of reference are to examine the potential from existing and new Government and commercial business that could be transacted through the post office, identify new business opportunities for the post office network, taking into account what is happening internationally, to engage as necessary with the public sector, commercial bodies and other interested parties in pursuit of the objectives, and to prepare an interim and final report for the Minister by the autumn. In so far as the Government is concerned, it has no intention of closing any post offices.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Why is Wonder Woman sending out letters?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Opportunities are being examined for other business to be done in post offices, even to the extent of people being able to pay water contributions through the post office system. Postmasters and postmistresses agreed on charging a fee for it, which was less than what they originally sought. The recipients of social welfare payments from the Department of Social Protection are entitled to say where the payments should be made. Unfortunately-----

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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They are being told.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Members should settle down. This is the question asked by Deputy Tom Fleming.

Noel Grealish (Galway West, Independent)
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We are backing him up.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----the vast majority of people in receipt of payments from the Department of Social Protection choose to have it paid directly into their bank accounts when they are asked the question. That is their choice. The Department will follow those instructions.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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They are being told.

Séamus Healy (Tipperary South, Workers and Unemployed Action Group)
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They are sending letters asking people to change.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If everyone said they wanted the payments made into post office accounts, that is what the Department would do. It is the choice of the recipient. If Deputy Seamus Healy thinks it is different, let him give me the evidence of it. The vast majority of people, when asked the question where they want pensions or social welfare payments paid, they ask for to them to be put into bank accounts, not post office accounts. The Department follows this answer.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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They are being told.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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We have all been at meetings where people say that they want to keep their post offices.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Members should stay quiet.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Government values the network of post offices and has written to people to say that any new business opportunities or options will be followed through. Mr. Bobby Kerr is hugely experienced in this area and he will report to the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Alex White, by the autumn on the terms of reference as set out. Some 24 were closed since 2010, with 197 closed between 2006 and 2010. The figures speak for themselves and, of that 24, the Deputy will understand the circumstances that apply in a number of those cases throughout rural Ireland.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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That is not what I am hearing about in public meetings in my county. People are at the end of their tether and they are worried and concerned about the attitude of An Post to the local communities.

Another retrograde step is that several services have been transferred to multiples on the edges of towns. People can post parcels and buy stamps at PostPoint outlets and they can pay their bills. This is causing further erosion and undermining of services in post offices. Recently, in the town of Listowel, there was a movement of the post office on the main street in the centre of town to a supermarket multiple at the far end of the town. This takes away the footfall from the centre of the main town area. This is detrimental to the overall trading situation in the town for all businesses.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should put a question.

Tom Fleming (Kerry South, Independent)
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The move was kept under wraps and there was no transparency for local people. This should not be allowed to happen under the public procurement criteria. I ask the Taoiseach to ensure this will not be allowed to happen again. There should be public consultation in future because this was done by stealth. It should not be allowed to happen. I ask the Taoiseach to intervene so that there will be no closures of post offices where there are pending closures until the Bobby Kerr report is made available. I ask that this be done immediately.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Tom Fleming is well aware that the only people who can keep open the post offices are those who use them. Unfortunately, in many areas around the country, people prefer to go to the nearest town and do their business. It is a fact of life. I represent the county where this has happened on many occasions. From first-hand experience, I know that when a postmaster or postmistress comes to retirement age or no longer wants to do the job and where the families have no interest in it, if no one else from the local area is prepared to take on something that involves quite an amount of work for very little return-----

Michael Fitzmaurice (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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They close them.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I came across a case where someone said they would take it on but went back on it six weeks later. It is not true to say that. The only people who can keep the post office open are those who use its services. The community must say it wants the post office, values it and will use its services. As far as the Government is concerned, we want to see post offices being able to do more business.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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What about the letters?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The opportunity for that exists and if all of those who receive social protection payments in a parish were to say that they want the money to be paid into the post office instead of the bank account, it would change the nature of things. Deputy Tom Fleming is also aware of the volume of material coming into the country from outside, which passes through the post offices. The Government does not want to close post offices and the figures, 24 post offices closed since 2010, reflect this. It is important the network is kept alive but it will not be kept alive by people talking about it in here. Local communities will keep post offices alive.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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If we take away services, how can people use them?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Tom Fleming raised an important point that consultation in advance might be an important element of what the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, Deputy Alex White, is considering. In other words, if the economics of a post office are in serious decline and it is not being used, the community should be informed before a decision is taken to close it down. That is the kind of consultation needed and the community can then see that it will lose its post office unless people change their ways and use it.

Barry Cowen (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Use it or lose it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is an unfortunate fact of life and, while we wish to keep them open, communities must support post offices in order for that to happen.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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A disgraceful answer.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Tom Fleming has the post office vote wrapped up.