Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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1. To ask the Taoiseach the position on the commitment in the programme for Government in regard to the Irish Water networks; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [43800/14]

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet sub-committee on economic infrastructure and climate change last met.. [2155/15]

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach when the Cabinet sub-committee on economic infrastructure and climate change last met. [3368/15]

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to, inclusive, 3 together.

The last meeting of the Cabinet sub-committee on economic infrastructure and climate change took place on 23 February. As the Deputy is aware, my colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, has responsibility for the programme for Government commitment with regard to water reform. He is advancing the project in line with that commitment. I understand he is due to answer a similar question on Government commitments with regard to Irish Water tomorrow. In my role as Taoiseach, I chair various Cabinet sub-committees to facilitate the development and co-ordination of public policy across programme for Government commitments and in areas such as water infrastructure where the objectives require the contribution of a variety of Departments and agencies. Water policy is discussed at a sub-committee of the Cabinet sub-committee on economic infrastructure and climate change. This work is ancillary to the work of the Government as a collective authority, but is nevertheless governed by the same Cabinet confidentially rules.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is a very curious reply. The Taoiseach seems to be avoiding the meat and substance of the question.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I answered the question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach is more or less saying it is an issue for the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government. It is a very convoluted reply designed to obfuscate.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I made a statement on the programme for Government, about which the Deputy asked in the context of Irish Water.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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In regard to Irish Water, the Taoiseach is remarkably reticent on the substance of the issue. I put it to him that, as chairman of the all-powerful Cabinet sub-committee on the economy - the Economic Management Committee - he was centrally involved in this unmitigated mess and debacle as it unfolded in the past two years. The Government was advised by PwC not to proceed in the way it proceeded. PwC stated it would cost a fortune to set it up as a subsidiary of Bord Gáis. It became a multilayered bureaucratic monster. The Government railroaded the original legislation through the House over a year and a half ago.

We know that 693 staff will work for Irish Water when it reaches its full complement in 2016. That is in addition to the approximately 4,000 local authority personnel who are currently working on the system and will continue to do so. The ESRI has estimated that approximately €2 billion in extra costs will be incurred as a result of the use of unnecessary extra staff. The Government has spent approximately €180 million on the establishment of the tier that involves Irish Water, of which some €90 million was spent on consultants. At the end of the day, when account is taken of the conservation grant - a terrible term because it is a misuse of language - we will be looking at a net revenue scenario of approximately €25 million. The Government will hand out a bill with one hand before handing out a cheque with the other. It hopes the cheque will mitigate the bill to be sent out one month previously. It is absolutely farcical that any Government would get involved in such a trade-off for electoral and political reasons, having made such a mess of this matter from day one.

The Taoiseach was centrally involved when the economic sub-committee of the Cabinet decided to earmark approximately €540 million from the National Pensions Reserve Fund to pay for the metering of 1.1 million homes. That was done in such a way that there was no accountability to the House for the spending of that money. No information has been forthcoming on the nature of the contracts or anything like it. We have been told they are commercially too sensitive for full disclosure in that regard. Deputy Barry Cowen spent two years trying to get answers from the Minister who kept on saying it had nothing to do with the Government. It will cost Irish Water approximately €25 million per annum to repay the loans from the National Pensions Reserve Fund.

I would like to ask the Taoiseach about the European market test which will decide whether the Government's plan fulfils the requirement to be off-balance sheet. We were told all along that we would know the outcome by the end of March. That is when we should know whether it actually meets the test. In recent days the Taoiseach wrote a letter to Deputy Sean Fleming saying the work of the CSO would be completed in two to three weeks. I take it that this means that it will be done by the end of March. The letter suggests the assessment will then be provided for EUROSTAT. The letter written by the Taoiseach to Deputy Sean Fleming also mentions that the CSO has been advised that a final response from EUROSTAT is likely to take at least two months from the date of receipt. Does that mean that we will not receive the EUROSTAT decision until the end of May or early June? Will the Taoiseach confirm this? Will he confirm whether the CSO's assessment in two or three weeks time will actually be published at the time of its assessment?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy in his question asked me to set out "the position on the commitment in the programme for Government in regard to the Irish Water networks" and to "make a statement on the matter". I forget the phrase he used when he complained about the answer I had given. According to the programme for Government:

The new Government will create Irish Water, a new State company that will take over the water investment maintenance programmes of the 34 existing local authorities. It will supervise and accelerate the planned investments needed to upgrade the State’s inefficient and leaking water network that has proved so unreliable during the recent harsh water conditions.

This is one a number of tests used to determine whether an entity should be classified within the general Government sector. The market corporation test includes, but is not limited to, the following tests. First, total sales to customers, including sales to the Government must be greater than 50% of production costs, including consumption of fixed capital and interest. This is known as the quantitative test. Second, the Government subvention is less than the total billed revenue, domestic and non-domestic. This is known as the qualitative test. There are two tests: the quantitative and qualitative. The benefit arising from Irish Water being considered off-balance-sheet is that it can borrow for investment from commercial lenders in a manner similar to the ESB, Bord Gáis or other commercial State bodies such that the borrowing and the related expenditure does not impact upon the general Government deficit. Deputy Martin is aware of that. That flexibility is expected to lead to an overall increase in available funding for the water capital programme without impacting on the public finances.

In respect of the estimates and calculations regarding the qualitative aspect of the market corporation test, the domestic billed income will be €271 million for 2015 and €274 million for 2016, non-domestic billed income will be €229 million in 2015 and €240 million in 2016 and customer will be billing €505 million in 2015 and €514 million in 2016. The customer subvention, excluding the working capital loan to Irish Water, will be €399 million and €479 million. The water conservation grant is not considered to be part of a Government subvention to Irish Water in respect of these figures. The grant is made available to all eligible households, not just customers of Irish Water. Therefore, it is not just subvention to Irish Water. Households with a water supply from a group water scheme, with a private well or with a septic tank can also qualify for the grant.

This is a function of EUROSTAT, which operates completely independently. The Government listened carefully to the genuine anxieties and concerns of substantial numbers of people. As a consequence, it reduced the charge to €1.15 and €3 per week for single people and households where there are more than two adults. The Government is happy that Irish Water will pass the market corporation test but I cannot give Deputy Martin a date when it will be decided by EUROSTAT. It is a EUROSTAT function, which is independent.

I noted the comment from the European Commission post-programme surveillance report, which was done for autumn of last year. It made a comment that the €100 water conservation grant could be construed as a subvention to Irish Water. We disagree completely. The new pricing structure has created certainty for customers up to 2019 and that remains, and will remain, the position. The Government is confident the underlying funding model for Irish Water supports increased investment in the sector through an off-balance-sheet treatment of the utility while providing for water charges that are affordable, clear and certain. The Government remains confident that Irish Water will pass the market corporation test. There was nothing new in the European Commission report recently published. The European Commission briefed journalists on its position late last year also. Changes to the water tariffs do not impact on Irish Water's investment plan, which has been approved by the Commission for Energy Regulation for the regulatory period from 2014 to 2016. Key decisions and efficiency targets remain in place and the changes made by the Government relate to the general policy framework and use of public subvention, not the underlying regulation independent view on allowable cost and investment. This is all about water conservation remaining at the heart of water sector reforms. Households can still beat the capped charges when they are metered and rebates will apply when meters are installed. Meters detect leaks and the water conservation grant, which is universal, will support households in taking measures to reduce their consumption.

The analysis suggests 35% of households can beat the cap and that this could rise to 50% of households if they reduce water usage by between 10% and 15%. The grant is universal and is paid to Irish Water customers and households with private wells, septic tanks and group water schemes. It is not connected to the Irish Water revenue or expenditure levels and is not part of the funding model for the utility. It will offer operate similarly to the fuel allowance already paid by the Department of Social Protection, which does not form part of the revenue of energy companies. That answers the questions.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The programme for Government, which I read, states the Government's goal in respect of our water service: "To achieve better quality water and environment we will introduce a fair funding model to deliver clean and reliable water." By this standard, the Government has failed and has not put forward a fair funding model. Looking at the water services strategic plan published two weeks ago, it states the target date of 2021 has been set to eliminate boil water notices. There are currently 23,000 citizens living under such notices and up to 1 million other people are being served by 126 water treatment plants that have been classified as unsafe by the Environmental Protection Agency. This is an indictment of the previous Government. Irish Water confirms it will take 25 years to reduce leakage to acceptable levels, a decade to remove dangerous lead piping, and a quarter of a century to develop a water service that meets our short-term needs. At the height of the Celtic tiger, I was one of those arguing that the wealth, or an element of the surplus, should be set aside to provide infrastructure, including water services. That would have been a better use of the opportunity created by the working people of the State. When bringing forward the initial proposal to establish Irish Water, we argued that instead of giving a huge amount of money to the new entity, installing water meters and paying consultants, the money should have been spent, as part of a catalyst for the economy and a stimulus to the construction industry, addressing the problems of leaks and pipes. Whatever way we look at this, the Government has made a hames of the matter and public anger forced the Government to do a U-turn. The Government should have done the gracious thing and scrapped water charges as opposed to the economic scamology it was involved in.

Nobody should be in prison as a result of this issue.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We cannot stray into this area. The problem with the question is that I am refusing questions every day of the week to ordinary Deputies where they concern operational matters of Irish Water. I cannot be seen to allow a debate into operational matters when I have already disallowed it for ordinary Deputies. The Deputy will appreciate my position.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That is fair enough. The point I am trying to make in terms of the programme for Government commitment to create a fair funding model to deliver clean and reliable water is that the Taoiseach would be better off abandoning the remnants of the old model and going for a proper focus on providing that and taking the burden off citizens.

On the issue of climate change, what the Government brought forward in its Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Bill is disappointing.

It also ignores the recommendations made by the all-party Joint Committee on Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht. My colleague, Deputy Stanley, put forward a climate change Bill which included targets for the reduction of emissions. As we have stated in the past, what is important is the introduction of practical measures which can be realised as opposed to making vague commitments on key issues, as is the case regarding the Government's proposed legislation.

We can all see the evidence of the changes that are affecting our climate, including the flooding of businesses and family homes and the devastation of certain coastal areas. The Marine Institute has indicated that 230,000 farmed salmon were lost off the west Cork coast during just one of the nine storms which battered that part of the country last winter. A particular report, Climate Change 2013: The Physical Science Basis, indicates that the previous decade was the warmest on record and attributed this to the increase in the burning of fossil fuels. It is generally recognised that humans are creating the difficulties relating to the climate. I appeal to the Taoiseach to strengthen the Government's legislative proposals in respect of this matter and to do what the scientists are telling us to do, namely, set targets which will allow us to minimise the impact of the damage which has already been done and, hopefully, ensure that there is no further damage. The Taoiseach hails from a very beautiful part of this island and the landscape there is not just that of our ancestors, it also belongs to this and future generations. We have a duty to pass it on to the latter in a better state than that in which we found it. I ask the Taoiseach to do the right thing by ensuring that the Cabinet sub-committee on climate change includes in its recommendations targets, timeframes and achievable goals.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I will refer to the programme for Government in respect of Irish Water. People tend to forget the very good story that is to be told in the context of why it was necessary to establish Irish Water. Every public representative and community knows full well just how inferior the system has been for so many years. I refer to leaking lead pipes and the wasting of water. If Deputy Adams discovered that the water tanks at his homes in counties Donegal and Louth were leaking on a Wednesday, he would state that they needed to be fixed. If they were found to be leaking the following week, he would say the same thing. For the past 50 years, some 40% to 50% of treated water has been leaking into the ground before people had the chance to use it. Citizens paid for that water to be treated. No one wants 20,000 people in County Roscommon to be obliged to continue to boil water for the next number of years. I am glad that this burden will be removed from those people in the next short period.

In the context of the programme of work Irish Water has put in train, the Cooley regional water supply scheme at Omeath was completed late last year.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The work was done by the local council. That is the point.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The emergency works project relating to the Drogheda-Staleen water treatment plant is at construction phase at present. In addition, phase 1 of the water main rehabilitation works in County Louth is expected to be completed later this month. These are projects that were left lying idle for a very long period. The programme set out by Irish Water in respect of both water and sewage projects is extremely strong. As time progresses, people will see the value of the company being able to borrow in order to invest properly and fix the various problems that exist. On the west coast, there was a major difficulty regarding some major industries not having access to sufficient supplies of water. The contract in respect of that matter - worth €11 million to €15 million - was signed last year and when the work relating to it is completed, major industries will have access to high volumes of pristine water. The programme set out by Irish Water in respect of both water supplies and sewage schemes for the period ahead is real and will be very beneficial to the country.

What is being done at present in the context of the provision of broadband and communications services, water and sewage services and roads will go a long way towards ensuring that people in rural areas and at provincial level will have access to employment opportunities in the future. That work, allied to the rural development programme for the period from now until 2020, which was approved by the European Commission and which is worth €4 billion, and the programmes set out by IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland and local employment offices, will allow communities that experienced very difficult times in recent years to fight back.

On climate change, the Joint Oireachtas Committee on the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht did first-class work in facilitating the public on the outline heads of the climate action and low-carbon development Bill and submitted its report in November 2013. While it did not make any specific recommendations, the committee set out possible courses of action which might be considered. The then Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government gave the joint committee's report full and careful consideration in the development of the general scheme of Bill to which I refer, which was approved by the Government in April of last year. A number of the suggestions made by the committee were contemplated in that general scheme, including reducing the interval between national low-carbon roadmaps from seven years to five and allowing the expert advisory body to publish its annual and periodic review reports directly rather than being obliged to obtain prior consent from the Government.

The current Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government will shortly bring proposals to the Government in respect of the establishment of a national expert advisory council on climate change. Those proposals will also contain suggestions regarding the membership of the latter. I understand that the membership will include an independent chairperson and ex-officiorepresentatives from the Environmental Protection Agency, Teagasc, the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland and the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, along with a number of other independent appointees with relevant experience. I expect the Minister to bring forward his proposals in this regard fairly soon.

The national low-carbon roadmap to 2050, which will incorporate sectoral mitigation proponents, is currently being worked upon. In that context, Departments with responsibility for the four key sectors are preparing those proponents for incorporation into the roadmap. The key sectors to which I refer are those relating to electricity generation, the built environment, transport and agriculture. It is intended that a draft national low-carbon roadmap contemplating those four sectoral elements will be made available for public consultation. In that context, it will be important to consider the outcome of the negotiations of the EU's 2030 policy framework for climate and energy and also relevant advices available to the Government and the key sectors in question.

Deputy Adams will be aware that detailed discussions took place with regard to Ireland's inability to meet its 2020 targets. As I indicated previously, those targets were based on insufficient scientific information in the first instance. If the targets for 2030 were to be set on the basis of those relating to 2020, then this country would be facing an enormous problem and would be fined exceptionally heavily for both failing to meet the latter and having no chance at all of meeting the former. This is why the European Council accepts that Ireland is unique in terms of its agricultural output.

As we have carbon footprinted most of the dairy farms in the country, we are pioneering and leading in a world sense in this sphere. When quotas go in the next few weeks, this country will become the most productive unit on the planet in terms of produce. That means a significant increase in the national cow herd. It is not for me to restrain the good dairy cows of Ireland from natural functions but if one increases productivity, one cannot reduce emissions from that perspective. That is why the European Council accepted the arguments put forward by Ireland in terms of our afforestation programme and sequestration reducing the extent of emissions. That is a very important element of the negotiating strategy.

All the issues Deputy Adams raised have to be taken into account. They include energy efficiency in the public sector, residential energy efficiency programmes, the energy efficiency funds and obligations schemes. I have been involved in some of these discussions at European level. They are utterly technical and exceptionally complicated. At the end of the day, we have to work backwards and ask whether this country can meet targets that are reasonable, achievable and will not result in the next generation being swamped by exceptionally heavy fines. In fairness to the Departments, their technical officials are working exceptionally hard to prepare a roadmap that is clear, achievable and will meet targets that are appropriate for Ireland. I do not in any way want to diminish the importance of these issues. These efforts will allow us to make real progress while continuing to produce high quality food with low carbon emissions. These goals can be contradictory in some senses but we want to be able to assure everybody we can meet targets that allow us to play our part in addressing many challenges, one of which is that the population of the world will reach 10 billion by 2050. We have significant potential to provide many thousands of jobs in this country by producing high quality food in a grass based agri-sector but we need an understanding from a European perspective of what is involved in doing that.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Higgins on Question No. 3.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I also wish to follow up on Question No. 1, which asked the Taoiseach to report on the commitment in the programme for Government on the Irish Water network. He read out what the programme for Government says on the matter but he did not answer the question. I would like him to answer the question. The programme for Government states that Irish Water "will supervise and accelerate the planned investments needed to upgrade the State’s inefficient and leaking water network". Will the Taoiseach acknowledge that he dismally failed in that regard in 2014? Will he comment on the response to RTE's freedom of information requests, which indicated that the investment in water infrastructure in 2013 and 2014 was the lowest in this State since 1998? Between 2004 and 2012, €430 million was invested annually but in the first 11 months of 2014 only €300 had been provided.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy is straying from the question on the Order Paper. I have to be careful and fair to all Deputies whose questions seeking that type of information were disallowed. This is purely about a commitment made in the programme for Government.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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That is the point.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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It is not about how much money was spent.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I ask the Taoiseach if he agrees that all he has achieved is the massive rejection of water charges by a huge section of the population and a massive alienation among significant sections of the population-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We will not go there.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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-----through the use of the forces of the State against their peaceful protests.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy's help in adhering to the Chair's direction, like the other two Deputies have. The question was clear, and it has been answered.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The question asked the Taoiseach "the position regarding the commitment in the programme for Government, in regard to the Irish Water networks; and if he will make a statement on the matter".

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is right.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I was summarising a number of the issues that have arisen in response to this aspect of the programme for Government.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is a matter for Irish Water, with which the Deputy will have to deal.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Come on, a Cheann Comhairle, that is absolutely ridiculous.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have to be fair to everybody. The Deputy is a master at this. I have been in this House with him for a long time. With the greatest of respect, he has to adhere to the ruling of the Chair on this issue. The question is quite simple, and it was answered. We cannot stray into other areas.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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It is extraordinary.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Deputy should put a question to the appropriate Minister or write to Irish Water.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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We have the very chief of the operation before us.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am afraid he is not chief of Irish Water.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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The Taoiseach has to politically answer for the disaster that Irish Water has become.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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He is politically responsible for the establishment of Irish Water, which he has done. That is it.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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We cannot call the Taoiseach to account for commitments in the programme for Government-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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He has fulfilled his commitment.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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-----which turn into an unmitigated disaster.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is a different issue.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I think it is extremely relevant. Will the Ceann Comhairle allow me to ask, at least-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I will allow the Deputy to ask the question he has put on the Order Paper, which is in respect of climate change.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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In that regard, the Taoiseach referred to the €100 grant as a conservation grant. Does he agree that marks a new degradation of the English language? An attempted political bribe becomes a conservation grant. Real conservation would be investment in people retrofitting their homes to save billions of litres of water or changing the planning laws to ensure that water saving devices are included in every home, which scandalously was not done for the 500,000 homes built during the bubble. Does the Taoiseach recognise reality? In April and May he will be facing a mass boycott of water by ordinary people, the decent tax paying backbone of the system. If he does not listen, this will decide the outcome of the next general election, to the detriment of his party and the Labour Party.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Does the Deputy want to ask about his question?

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I thought we would have the opportunity of a second round.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There are other Deputies.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I am under pressure because the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis is due to meet shortly.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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That is okay.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I have answered the question on the position regarding the commitment in the programme for Government.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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You did not.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I referred to what is in the programme for Government and the programme that Irish Water has prepared for both water and sewerage. It is true that the Government listened carefully to the many people who marched last year because of concerns and uncertainty about Irish Water. The Government listened carefully and has provided that certainty and assurance. We reduced charges to €1.15 per week, or €3 per week where more than one adult applies, and have given certainty out to 2019.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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They are not fooled.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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All that people have to do is register with Irish Water and they qualify for the €100 contribution in respect of that. The Deputy said there was a massive rejection. When I was in Swords the other day, I counted 17 people protesting. They are entitled to protest but they should bear in mind the company I was visiting had been in Ireland for 50 years.

It intends to invest €900 million later this year in a major expansion programme which will involve 1,000 construction workers for the period of construction and up to 500 global calibre chemists and researchers subsequently. I was in Dundalk after that where there were approximately 24 people protesting. They are welcome to protest, of course.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Who counted them for the Taoiseach? Was it himself or the driver?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Protest is a normal part of any democracy. The programme laid out here is one that will bring our country back from the dark ages in terms of water infrastructure and waste water infrastructure. It is about the capacity of Irish Water to borrow and invest not just to keep a situation band-aided, where fundamental problems are never addressed, but to clean it up, fix it and invest for the future so that all the people of the country can have clarity and assurance about having high quality water. It is a system that has to be paid for while ensuring it does not have 40% of treated water leaking away into the ground before it ever reaches the houses and businesses of those for whom it is intended.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach did not answer Quetion No. 1 in my name. He appeared to be in a position to answer it according to the letter to Deputy Fleming, but does not appear to be in a position to answer it today.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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What is the question?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I will read out the answer provided in the Taoiseach's letter. It states, "The CSO are working to finalise the report in the next two to three weeks". This is the report about the market corporation test. The preceding paragraphs tell us how expert the CSO staff are. The Taoiseach's letter states that the assessment will then be provided to EUROSTAT before going on to note that, "[The] CSO have been advised that a final response from EUROSTAT is likely to take at least two months from the date of receipt". All along, the Government has been saying that we would know the outcome of the EUROSTAT deliberations in March. In reply to Deputy Fleming and others by way of a letter dated February 2015 following the select committee's questioning of the Taoiseach on his Department's Estimates, he is now saying the final response from EUROSTAT is likely to take at least two months from the date of receipt of the information from the CSO. That is a significant change from what the Government has been saying all along. It is now looking like June.

There have been extraordinary efforts by the Government to cook the books in the direction of trying to pass this test, including, for example, the €60 million in commercial rates that Irish Water was to pay now being taken on board by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. There have been a whole lot of activities to make the balance sheet right; taking costs back onto the State and vice versa. Is the Taoiseach playing for time? Can he confirm this? On the net point, I ask whether the CSO's assessment will be published in its own right when it is completed in two to three weeks' time prior to being submitted to EUROSTAT?

Approximately €5.5 billion was spent between 2000 and 2010 on capital water infrastructure and many improvements emanated from that across the country. In the three years following the establishment of Irish Water, however, the amount of capital expenditure will be less than in the three years prior to its establishment. Most of the projects to which the Taoiseach referred were prepared by local authorities. I recently visited Cork Corporation and, as I said to the Taoiseach, nothing has changed there. The entire staff of the corporation is doing the work they were doing before. The only difference is that they are paid €11 million by Irish Water to do the work. The Taoiseach has created a superstructure above it that has cost a small fortune. The Cabinet sub-committee the Taoiseach chairs decided to spend up to €500 million on water metres that will never be read, or certainly not read in the next three to four years. The conservation element has gone out the window and the Taoiseach needs to be honest with people in that regard. The Taoiseach is saying that people can beat the tariff that is place at the moment but they can only do that if they use no water at all according to the calculations people close to us have made. Can the Taoiseach clarify those two points?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There is a question down tomorrow for the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government who is dealing with the detail of this. The Minister can and will reply at length on particular details. The Central Statistics Office has an involvement in this matter. As I understand it, the CSO has engaged with EUROSTAT as it has a responsibility to do and the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government has met with the CSO to provide the necessary information and detail to facilitate its work. Ultimately, the decision on the classification of Irish Water and associated Government expenditure is a matter for EUROSTAT, which is completely independent. I do not speak for either the CSO or EUROSTAT but I assume the information collated in working with EUROSTAT is public. Why would it be any other way? EUROSTAT itself will publish its classification when it wants to do so. The Government is happy that Irish Water will pass the market corporation test. I cannot give the Deputy an exact date as to when EUROSTAT will make its decision, but perhaps the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government will have more up to date information on that aspect.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I seek clarity on the water issue. According to Irish Water's own projections, water services will only have been marginally improved by 2021, but the taxpayer will end up paying more. By that point, Irish Water will have spent approximately €8 billion. There is still time to consider setting all of this aside to establish a proper water service funded from general taxation and under public control. The Taoiseach cited in his response Omeath in the Cooley Mountains area in my constituency. I remember long before I was a Deputy helping neighbours in Glenmore to run Wavin pipes up to the slopes of Slieve Foy to the springs and streams and doing the same in the rocky ground below the Long Woman's Grave. The fact is that whatever has been developed there was developed by the people themselves sinking their own wells, via group schemes running water down from the mountain, or by the local authority. We need to be real about all of this. The Government has made a hames of the issue and keeps digging a hole for itself on it.

Returning to the issue of climate change, the Taoiseach said in a humorous aside that he could not be expected to restrain the good cows from fulfilling their natural functions. It is fair to say that is outside the Taoiseach's power. Of all the things I would like the Taoiseach to do, that is not one. Nappies for our bovine herd are beyond the Taoiseach's ability. However, if I remember correctly, and the Taoiseach may correct me if I am wrong whereupon I will withdraw the remark, the Taoiseach made a wonderful speech about climate change at the UN. He then returned to Europe and sought all sorts of exemptions. The Taoiseach knows that the atmosphere and the oceans have warmed, the amount of snow and ice has diminished, sea levels have risen and the concentration of greenhouse gases has increased. That is going to become more common and more severe in the time ahead. What I am looking for is a sense of whether the climate change committee has discussed the impact of climate change here, the impact of the dramatic changes in weather patterns, their implications for the future and what measures have been brought forward to minimise greenhouse gases and develop a green economy.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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With regard to the water situation, we have only been able to invest about €300 million a year for the past number of years and the investment needs to be double that figure at least. In Deputy Adams' opinion it is time to abolish these arrangements and fund a proper water system from general taxation. I assume this involves either increases in commercial rates or land taxes or income tax increases if it is to be raised from general taxation-----

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Not necessarily.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----because it will not be raised from a wealth tax, as mentioned by the Deputy previously but which I believe has now been jettisoned by Sinn Féin. In any event, the Government is very clear that Irish Water will pass the market corporation test and will allow for all these things to be dealt with in the time ahead.

I will give the Deputy an example. There are small group water schemes, bits and pieces of council schemes and major schemes all over the country. I was looking recently at three small schemes in rural Ireland, comprising of 1,200 houses, with bad water sources, inferior pumps, badly laid schemes serving farms and houses, with discoloured water and so on. Under the council regime at the time they were bundled together with departmental assistance and the sources of water were fenced off, proper pumps were installed, leaks were repaired and a trough was put in every field where that was appropriate. Metering was also installed in the houses. In the first year, those 1,200 houses saved half a billion litres of water. The people in the houses and on the farms were very happy to see the meters measuring the consumption of water because they were able to tell if any leakages were occurring from the source outwards. These systems have the capacity to transform the way service is delivered at a cheaper cost and more effectively for everyone in the longer term.

I am glad that Deputy Adams referred to my speech on climate change at the UN. He asked me whether the Cabinet sub-committee has discussed this and the answer is "Yes". Its decision was that we should play our part.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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How will the Government play its part?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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By reaching targets that are achievable for Ireland and not be set a task that is completely outside the country's capacity to reach. I am serious when I say that our capacity to produce food is extraordinary and we can do so much more. However, in order to do so, we must increase the national herd numbers and there is a limitation in respect of emissions.

The Ceann Comhairle is a former Minister and he has a great interest in the marine business, as have we all. I recently visited the Marine Institute in Galway, as has Deputy Martin, I am sure.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is one of Fianna Fáil's legacies.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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In this regard I refer to the country's location in terms of the ocean's tides and currents. I noted that Deputy Martin visited the institute last weekend because I saw him in the distance or at least I thought I saw him but I am not sure-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I was in Mayo last week; the Taoiseach would want to do something in Castlebar.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Marine Institute reports that the mortality rate for salmon is too high, that if the temperature of the Atlantic rises by half a degree then the entire salmon stock which has been here for millions of years will move one thousand miles north. There is already evidence of species of warm water fish being caught in Irish waters to an unprecedented extent. These are issues that need to be considered. This is the reason that during the Irish Presidency we commenced a long-term analysis which will continue long after we are all gone. This analysis of various elements of the Atlantic Ocean involves Canada, America, Portugal, Spain, France, Great Britain and Ireland. The sub-committee considered the implications. The best action Ireland can take is to measure up to its responsibilities and this is what we are doing. However, we want to be able to measure up to those responsibilities in a way that is actually achievable and not be set targets that are exceptionally beyond our reach. In my view, the original targets were based on insufficient scientific information but that has all changed.

I am very glad that the European Commission and the European Union recognise that Ireland is now in a different space and that we want to make a real contribution but a contribution that is achievable and with a target that is relevant to Ireland. We do not want the generation after 2020 to be put in a position where exceptionally large fines will be levied on the country because of our inability to meet targets. The 2020 targets were beyond our reach but if they followed on the same logic, the 2030 targets would be completely outside our capacity to measure up. It is still technically complicated and it will not be easy. However, the answer to the Deputy's question is that we will play our part and I am happy that the expertise in the different Departments as they negotiate with their counterparts in Europe, following the European Council decision, will put us in a better place although it will not be easy. It was decided in Europe that with regard to all these matters the European Council would be consulted before a final signing-off. That will aid the Irish negotiators on the issues of forestry capacity, afforestation and sequestration. However, it will not be an easy task for us to achieve our targets at the same time.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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May I ask a brief supplementary question?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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It must be very brief because we want to move on. We have only six and a half minutes left.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not have an opportunity to discuss the climate change agenda because I was focused on the Irish Water issue. I sought an acknowledgement from the Taoiseach that €5.5 billion was spent on water infrastructure during the period 200 to 2010, including a large number of waste water treatment plants. My own city of Cork needed one and while there was political opposition the work immeasurably improved the situation.

All the groups involved in the climate change issue and those who have been monitoring the various global summits for some time, met with parliamentarians here in recent weeks. They articulated their huge disappointment at the Government's climate change strategy, the lack of targets and what in their view is a rowing back from a position adopted by the Fianna Fáil-Green Party Government in its climate change Bill. These groups are independent of political parties, they are experts in climate change issues and they are deeply disappointed at what they perceive to be the lack of substance with regard to targets.

In the recent negotiations the Taoiseach indicated that the issue of afforestation would be factored into the calculation of Ireland's contribution. That is vital. Afforestation and trees help the climate and they also help the atmosphere. It is hoped that if we can achieve significant afforestation then this will be taken into account in the calculations. However, inexplicably, in the past this has been excluded by the European Commission and the European authorities and they have not taken sufficient account of afforestation, despite lobbying by various Governments, including our own, over the years. It makes no sense. One could argue that it would incentivise afforestation if the European Commission were to relent on that point. Has the Taoiseach any information on the up-to-date position and the likely European response to the issue of afforestation?

Deputy Adams referenced the situation with regard to agriculture. Agriculture is our oil in many respects and we need to be very careful when offering up anything in that regard, other than being fully committed to the most efficient husbandry and management of our farms so that they can achieve a reduced carbon footprint and can be effective and efficient with regard to the carbon issue. However, we have been falling behind in the case of the transport sector, which contributes very significantly to our carbon footprint.

Within government and across the various State agencies, Departments and local authorities, there is terrible inertia in the utilisation of fossil fuels and a failure to look radically at alternative mechanisms. In the case of airports, train stations and local authorities, all vehicles should either be electric or, at least, not using fossil fuels. I do not see why a national programme to that end cannot be developed. As a member of a Cabinet sub-committee on this issue at a time when the economy was going very well, I recall that the transport issue was the Achilles heel of the State's capacity to meet any realistic or reasonable target. Will the Taoiseach comment on the transport sector, the afforestation issue and the absence of targets in the context of the climate change Bill and strategy?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The difficulties in this regard arise from the unrealistic non-ETS emissions reduction target set for 2020, which is minus 20% compared with 2005 levels. That is unattainable and unaffordable in the current fiscal environment. We have, in effect, lost ten years of investment capacity and, on current projections, are likely only to reach a reduction of minus 5% to minus 8% below 2005 levels by 2020. The mismatch between our assessment of Ireland's cost-efficient emissions reduction capacity, a maximum of minus 14% by 2030, and the possible upper target of minus 37% that might be set for us, based on the figures given to other countries and under a GDP capita distribution, would result in cumulative non-compliance costs of approximately €5.3 billion by 2030. That is the equivalent of 0.3% of GDP. We need to have a very detailed discussion about setting out realistic and achievable targets for the country. If that is not done, the projected scale of fines or charges would be way beyond our remit.

We have an active Government-funded afforestation programme, with an estimated cumulative spend of some €3.5 billion between now and 2030, which will deliver potential to achieve carbon neutrality among many other benefits. It is important that Ireland's land-based emissions are seen in the light of this and the associated credits that come from it are counted towards our target.

I take the Deputy's point on fossil fuels. The increase in the number of electric vehicles will be very significant in the time ahead. The programme for the conversion and use of heavy transport vehicles, including lorries, buses and trains, is being accelerated. Of course, it would be wonderful to see all of these vehicles converted overnight to emissions-free capacity, but that is not how it is done. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, is in discussions with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Paschal Donohue, and a detailed analysis of these matters is being undertaken.