Dáil debates

Wednesday, 14 January 2015

4:55 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I wish the Ceann Comhairle a very happy 2015.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Last week the crisis in accident and emergency departments across the country reached intolerable and unacceptable levels, with 600 people on trolleys. We are not talking statistics because these are real people, whether a child, a parent or a grandparent. Immense distress has been caused and a fundamental question is whether their health or their safety was compromised as a result of the unacceptable and chaotic situation in our accident and emergency departments. Great tribute must be paid to front-line staff.

The crisis should never have escalated to the level it achieved. Notwithstanding the promises of Deputy James Reilly when he said, "Never again will there be 569 patients on trolleys on a single day while this Government is in office" -----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Cá bhfuil sé?

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----it took us a while but not too long to understand that the man did not have much credibility when it came to making promises and commitments. However, people actually believed the Taoiseach when he said on that big billboard, "I will end the scandal of patients on trolleys". We were to go to www.finegael.ie, for details of how it would be done and to look at the plans.

5:05 pm

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The west is awake.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As far back as July, the Minister was alerted by officials in the Department to 650 delayed discharges. This was six months before Christmas. In October the Taoiseach was warned in the House about the fair deal scheme. Despite all the rhetoric and language, how can the Taoiseach possibly state he can deal with this when he has funded 1,400 fewer beds under the fair deal scheme for 2015 than he did in 2013? Year after year the Taoiseach has taken beds which had been available for discharge and has expected the system to cope. It could not possibly cope and the Taoiseach knew this. He and the Minister were warned. In late December the Minister set up an accident and emergency forum, but he stated he knew this was coming. He stated he put in plans to try to deal with it. When he came back from holidays he stated he did not know why the plans did not work. God help Joe Citizen who contacts finegael.ieto try to find out, if the Minister himself does not know how the plan did not work.

Does the Taoiseach believe the accident and emergency departments were safe for patients at the level of overcrowding which was experienced in recent weeks and which continues to be experienced? Will he reverse the cuts to the fair deal scheme and provide adequate financial resources to ensure we do not have waiting times for access and eligibility to the scheme? With regard to the nursing home beds which are available to be commissioned, will the Taoiseach commit to providing the financial resources so they can all be commissioned and opened and front-line staff recruited to provide for same?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am just checking on Deputy Martin's record on this matter. When this happened previously he stated it was not a crisis and not his fault.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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We are talking about now.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Come into the present.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If I recall correctly, he spoke about putting an end to waiting lists in two years, but that is in the past.

Photo of Billy KelleherBilly Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is the present.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The answer to the question is the accident and emergency departments were not as safe as they ought to have been with the numbers in the units and, as a consequence, in the corridors

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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And the ambulances.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister for Health established the emergency department task force in December 2014 and it held another meeting today. Obviously it is working on a serious plan to regulate this in a way which will not have these surges which occur every so often becoming full-blown crises.

The Deputy is aware the Government provided €25 million in the last budget, on top of an additional €3 million in late 2014, to address delayed discharges in hospitals. This is targeted at hospital and community services which can demonstrate initiatives to move patients from acute or transitional care into long-term care or to enable them return home with appropriate supports.

The HSE has advised the Minister that additional beds to cope with surge pressures are now open, and all non-urgent elective procedures have been cancelled. Urgent and cancer surgeries will continue. The role of consultant doctors in terms of ensuring additional ward rounds and patient transfers has been emphasised by the Minister, particularly because of the change of rota of junior doctors. The use of additional capacity in non-acute hospitals, particularly to provide rehabilitation care, is being expedited in Saint Luke's, Cappagh and Navan. Ambulance bypass cover arrangements will be put in place in exceptional circumstances and with the prior agreement of the group CEO.

The plans are working, with numbers below the high occurrence on 6 January, although they are not satisfactory by any means. I understand the number this morning was 298. This area is a priority focus for the Minister, together with the task force, to see whether it can be dealt with. Some hospitals are more difficult than others. The Minister has just answered a Topical Issue matter on the subject and a Private Members' motion will be taken this evening when there will be greater opportunity to discuss these events.

In respect of nursing homes, obviously there is a growing need for places with an aging population. The physical location of many of them is not as close as one would like them to be for the transfer of patients from heavily populated areas. It is an issue which must be addressed.

The fact the emergency department task force has been set up and has held a number of meetings, including one today, is indicative of the priority being attached to it by the Minister for Health and the HSE.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach's initial response was a bit sleeveen, if he does not mind me saying so. He stated they were not as safe as they ought to have been. What does this mean? I asked the Taoiseach a simple question, whether they were safe from a clinical perspective for patients. Stating they were not as safe as they ought to have been is meaningless and does not deal with the core question. I asked the question because numerous HSE spokespersons were asked simple questions on television on whether they were safe. If one reads the transcripts of the interviews one will see everybody fudged the answer-----

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Yes.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----just as the Taoiseach fudged the answer now. It is a core question.

This was coming for quite a long time and the new Minister was told about it in July. Let us go back to the budget 12 months ago and the fraudulent figures with which we were presented. The Taoiseach closed beds during the year. A total of 48 beds were closed in St. Luke's General Hospital in Kilkenny, 14 beds were closed in South Tipperary General Hospital and 75 beds were closed in St. Joseph's Hospital in Ennis. I have a list of all the beds which were closed. As well as this, 1,400 beds were taken from what had been provided under the fair deal scheme two years ago. In the name of God, how did the Taoiseach think the system would cope with this?

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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He knew it would not.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question please.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach tried to get away with it, and he has been trying to get away with health for the past three to four years. He has neglected it as a priority in government. This is fundamentally why all records were broken last week with regard to accident and emergency departments. There has been no consistent and persistent application to the issues which occur and which will continue to occur. The Taoiseach tried to get away with it by cutting it short and he got caught. I am not worried about the Taoiseach getting caught; I am worried about the more fundamental question of whether he can guarantee patient safety in the overcrowded scenarios which occur in accident and emergency departments throughout the country, as happened last week and this week and which will happen in the coming weeks. Will the Taoiseach guarantee it? Does he accept they were not safe for the patients concerned? Elderly people and people with serious conditions were in armchairs and there was a potential risk of cross infection.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If I recall, the Deputy is the former Minister who accepted no responsibility for any of this. He denied there was a crisis when billions were sloshing around and being wasted by a profligate government.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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This is not a history lesson. We are dealing with the here and now.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The answer I gave is not meaningless, with respect. Overcrowded emergency departments and patients on trolleys in hospital corridors mean the situation is not as it should be. We have admitted on many occasions that it is not right and proper to have patients on trolleys, particularly those who have had to wait for more than nine hours on a trolley. This is not as safe as it ought to be. This is clear, and far from being meaningless it is a realistic appraisal of the scale of the challenge we face. It is not all about money, it is about management as much as anything else. One can never foretell accurately the numbers who may wish to avail of emergency departments. It is not a black and white situation to state it is safe at 4 o'clock but not safe at 5 o'clock. It is not right and proper to have trolleys occupied by patients for more than nine hours and it is in this area in particular the Minister is working very hard to regulate this properly.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Bliain úr faoi mhaise don Cheann Comhairle agus don Taoiseach freisin. I attended the INMO protest here earlier today. That nurses feel they must protest at the Dáil says everything about the state of our health services. Last week I wrote to HIQA expressing concern at the conditions in Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital in Drogheda. I requested that the authority conduct an assessment.

Today I received a truly shocking reply. In summary it states that if previous HIQA recommendations - it is all here if the Taoiseach does not have sight of this - had been implemented, current risks within hospital emergency departments would be significantly reduced.

The Taoiseach will recall that the 2012 Tallaght report made 17 recommendations on the safe care of patients. These recommendations have not been implemented. There were two further reports, one in June 2014 into overcrowding at the emergency department of University Hospital Limerick and another in December into emergency care services. Representatives of HIQA also met officials from the Department of Health and the HSE to express concerns about the failure to implement the Tallaght report and also to express concerns about patient safety. There is no question about whether patients are safe; they are not safe.

Does the Taoiseach agree that the HSE is obliged to take prompt action to implement recommendations made by regulatory bodies such as HIQA? Does he also agree that this is the explicit responsibility of the Department of Health and the Minister for Health? Will the Taoiseach to explain to the Dáil why the HSE, the Department of Health and the Minister have failed to implement these recommendations?

5:15 pm

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Sometimes I reflect on whether one should listen to Deputy Adams or watch what his party actually does. He comes in here regularly and he, himself, chooses not to avail of the excellent quality of our health service here in Ireland, but that is a matter for him.

I remind the Deputy that there are 120 patients on trolleys in Northern Ireland today, 40 of whom have been on those trolleys for 48 hours or more. I know the Deputy has an influence on this in Northern Ireland and perhaps he might apply himself to that as well.

The hospital and HSE management are focusing on addressing the issues in accident and emergency departments concerning patients on trolleys before the nurses might commence their work to rule in any of the hospitals concerned. That has been going on for a while. Beaumont was the first hospital to ballot on a work to rule. This would encompass clerical and administrative duties and is expected to commence on 27 January. Representatives of the management at Beaumont and of the INMO met at the Labour Relations Commision yesterday. I understand the parties agreed to revert to local discussions to consider a number of issues that were raised during the course of yesterday's discussions and process. They agreed to go back to the LRC on Thursday, 20 January.

Management is available in all of the hospitals where the INMO is carrying out ballots in respect of a work to rule.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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What is the Taoiseach talking about?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am talking about the Deputy and his question.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I am asking the Taoiseach about the HIQA report.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, Deputy, please.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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As the House is aware, the emergency department task force met today, which is the second meeting of the group. In the light of the recent pressures on emergency departments, the task force wants to access and assess all suitable non-acute accommodation to the maximum extent possible.

The Deputy will have an opportunity in Private Members' business to expand on the document he has and he will get a comprehensive reply from the Minister in that respect.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That would be a change.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am satisfied, it should be noted, that the HSE has the capacity to recruit where it is necessary to deliver front-line services. In many of these cases the problem does not lie with the availability of front-line service numbers.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the Deputy want to shake hands with me while he is at it? Thank you.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, that is not-----

A Deputy:

That is just a stunt, Gerry.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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I thought the Taoiseach was going to be another victim on one of the Deputy's trolleys.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, please.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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When will the Taoiseach learn to stop indulging in personal attacks on me or bringing the North into a question about this State when his latest visit there was an attempt by him to bring-----

Photo of Regina DohertyRegina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Such double standards.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----austerity into that part of the island?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Double standards in this House and double standards in-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I asked the Taoiseach a very straightforward question. The question quoted the HIQA letter I have just given to him, which states that its recommendations have not been implemented. It continues to state, and this is crucial, that if these recommendations had been implemented, current risks within hospital departments throughout the State would be significantly reduced. That is straightforward. The Taoiseach should not engage in distractions, perambulations and verbal gymnastics.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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My question to the Taoiseach is as follows. Does he accept-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, would you stay quiet?

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach acknowledge and explain to the Dáil? Let us not wait until Private Members' time; this is Leaders' Questions time. I have asked the Taoiseach why the HSE, the Department of Health and the Minister have failed to implement these recommendations which HIQA has stated have not been implemented.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not consider that I engaged in a personal attack upon the Deputy. It is his own choice as to what he wants to do and he did that.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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That has nothing to do with the question.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach has his own private health care and does not worry about the public. Every one of them has.

Photo of Kathleen LynchKathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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And Gerry does not have health insurance.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It is only right and proper that, as the Deputy continually refers to the excellence of the services in Northern Ireland for which he claims full responsibility, the truth be known in respect of the numbers on trolleys today and the numbers who have been on trolleys for 48 hours or more.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach should tell us the truth about today in this State.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I also take the Deputy to task in respect of his outrageous behaviour in respect of the discussions and negotiations being conducted by the Minister, Deputy Charles Flanagan, and the Minister of State, Deputy Sherlock, in Northern Ireland. The Deputy First Minister of the Executive was quite prepared to make much more solid progress than Deputy Adams.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We did a good deal, no thanks to the Taoiseach.

Photo of Martin FerrisMartin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach should answer the question.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am very glad that in the interests of everybody, particularly the citizens of Northern Ireland, the negotiations were concluded.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Would the Taoiseach answer the question put to him?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, please.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy marched across the floor today with a two and a half-page letter from HIQA. I thank him for that. I will study this letter very carefully. I take the point he makes. The writer of the letter, the chief executive, states that he wants to assure the Deputy, and therefore everybody else through this medium, that the authority will continue to maintain a watching brief on the issues and impress on those charged with the delivery of health care services-----

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach will not answer the question.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----the importance of implementing them.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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He will not answer the question.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The point is that by Private Members' time this evening we will have a more comprehensive response to the Deputy in respect of the questions raised by the chief executive because I have not had time to read the detail of his letter.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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A Cheann Comhairle------

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Coppinger.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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-----is there a responsibility for the Taoiseach to be kept at least to the question?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, you know-----

(Interruptions).

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I have no control of the content of a reply given by Deputy Adams or anybody else.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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But he has to be kept on subject, on the issue.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask him to accept the fact that I endeavour as far as is humanly possible to stick to the issues.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Ceann Comhairle advise the Taoiseach of that?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach has finally said he will address the issue contained in the letter this evening.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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But not on Leaders' Questions.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Who is chairing?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I accept that, but I cannot do anything about it. There is only a minute for a supplementary question and a minute for reply.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach has two health Ministers beside him and he knows the issue is coming up.

Photo of Caoimhghín Ó CaoláinCaoimhghín Ó Caoláin (Cavan-Monaghan, Sinn Fein)
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Three.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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All right.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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He has three health Ministers beside him.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Coppinger on behalf of the Technical Group. I wish her well in her new role as leader of the Technical Group.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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This is the first chance the Dáil has had to discuss the horrific case of a clinically dead pregnant woman kept alive for 23 days in December against her family's wishes. I wish to convey the sympathies of the Anti-Austerity Alliance to her family who had to endure the tragic loss of their young daughter and then watch the indignities that were heaped upon her. They were forced into the courts to be allowed to bury their daughter over the Christmas period. This was all solely due to the fears doctors have about the eighth amendment.

The Taoiseach has said this is a personal case which is highly sensitive and so on, as if we should keep out of the matter. However, the State is preventing people from making personal decisions about highly sensitive matters and not the other way around.

Dr. Peter Boylan, the former master of the National Maternity Hospital, said that what was done to this tragic woman was grotesque and experimental. Let us be clear that the eighth amendment led to this. No 15-week foetus has ever survived to delivery anywhere on the planet.

5 o’clock

However, doctors told the family this attempt was being made for constitutional reasons.

The resultant details are highly disturbing, but people need to hear the reality of having this law in place. This woman had a ventilator inserted, a tracheostomy tube in her neck, and six syringe pumps for drugs to stop infections. Make-up was applied when her children came to visit to make her look something like she had been. It is all the more incredible that doctors felt they had to take this course of action when an accident and emergency and bed crisis was escalating around them. We ended up with legal representation for the unborn and a deceased woman, all because of the eighth amendment.

This is the third high-profile case of a woman being abused by the eighth amendment under the Taoiseach's watch. This weekend he marched down the boulevards of Paris against religious fundamentalism.

5:25 pm

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Is the Taoiseach willing to allow the Irish people the chance to remove a law which is the envy of religious fundamentalists around the world? Was he strutting and posing for liberty in Paris while maintaining women as vessels and incubators at home, alive or dead? Will the Taoiseach hold a raft of referendums in May while refusing to allow people to have their say on the eighth amendment? He said he does not have a mandate, but he can go and get one by having a referendum. There is no time impediment to his holding a referendum to see what the will of the people is at a particular time. That goes for the excuses of the Labour Party as well.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Will the Taoiseach hold a referendum in May, alongside those on marriage equality and other questions, and lift the shackles from doctors and women?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I was happy and privileged to represent the Irish people in Paris this week after an atrocity based on terror and fear. The demonstration of support by the ordinary citizens of France and the leadership of the European Union demonstrated the importance of why we have a European Union.

The case in Mullingar was sensitive. It was a personal case and was not a case of turning a blind eye to the situation. Deputy Coppinger should remember that Bunreacht na hÉireann is the people's book. It is they who put it together, they who vote on it and they who have the sole responsibility of changing it if they so desire. However, in this particular case the courts determined that the eighth amendment did not prevent the turning off of the life-sustaining equipment. It was not the case that the eighth amendment restricted the decision that had to be made.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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I agree with the Taoiseach that the Constitution is in place. I am asking him to allow people to change it by holding a referendum, enabling them to overturn a decision that was taken 31 years ago at the behest of a Catholic lobby and nobody else. He said the eighth amendment did not prevent the life support from being turned off, but it is the reason doctors were fearful in the first place. The man sitting to the left of the Taoiseach talked about the chilling effect on doctors of the eighth amendment when he had knowledge of the case, and he was right. In the court case, doctors said, "We are unclear what to do in light of the eighth amendment." Dr. Peter Boylan, who is very authoritative and was used as a State witness in the case, said that repeal of the eighth amendment would be even more helpful than medical guidelines. The point about Paris was that the Taoiseach strutted and strolled up the Champs-Élysées with many other Western leaders, ostensibly against religious fundamentalism, while he is presiding at home over a host of laws, including one about blasphemy and one which is so anti-woman, medieval-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question, please.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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-----and misogynistic that there is no way any religious fundamentalist would seek to have it put in place.

My key point is that the Taoiseach will have the chance to resolve this issue in May. There is no impediment to the holding of a referendum on this in line with the referendums on marriage equality and other issues. Will the Taoiseach give time for this to be discussed in the Dáil in light of the tragedy which unfolded over Christmas, when a macabre ordeal was visited on the family concerned? What they were put through occurred, as all of the doctors testified, for constitutional reasons, because of the existence of the eighth amendment. Let people have their say. I say to the Labour Party: "Do not sit over this atrocity any longer." We cannot afford to have any more horrific cases coming to light of women being treated as vessels and incubators in this way.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Coppinger should bear in mind that the family involved requested privacy. She can understand they do not want this individual case discussed in the Dáil. I respect their request for privacy.

There are two referendums to be held in May, one on the question of the eligibility limit for the Presidency, which was a recommendation from the people's Constitutional Convention, and a second on the question of marriage equality, which was also a recommendation from the people's Constitutional Convention.

I do not know if Deputy Coppinger was actively involved in any of the campaigns in the 1980s when these amendments were considered previously. I have already said that there will not be another referendum during the lifetime of this Government.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Why not?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is a matter Deputy Coppinger can blithely say should be considered by way of referendum in May. I do not think she realises the scale of the challenge that would be involved. It is all too easy for her to say, "Remove the eighth amendment." I would like to hear her tell me what she proposes to replace it with.

Photo of Ruth CoppingerRuth Coppinger (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Nothing. Take it out.

Photo of Joe HigginsJoe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Legislation.