Dáil debates

Wednesday, 26 November 2014

12:00 pm

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach would probably agree that the greatest aspect of the State examinations system, at both at junior certificate and leaving certificate, is its absolute objectivity and transparency. Every child, irrespective of background, is treated and assessed equally. I would agree with Mr. Fintan O'Toole, writing yesterday in The Irish Times, that it is "as close to being incorruptible as anything gets in Ireland". Changing such a system, even at junior certificate level, merits the most careful of consideration. I understand where teachers are coming from in their concerns about this because this is a major change in assessment which no doubt will have an impact on the student-teacher relationship.

It is also fair to put on the record that over the past ten years there have been significant reforms, at both junior and leaving certificate levels. At junior certificate, there was the introduction of a new science syllabus, the introduction of Project Maths, group work at CSPE, etc. It is not that teachers are always against reform. They have embraced reform and reform has happened.

The problem here is that the former Minister, Deputy Quinn, caused a lot of bad feeling when he ignored the recommendations of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA. He announced the new model unilaterally without consultation and would not engage with the trade unions, and a lot of doubt and bad feeling was created. In fairness, the Minister, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, acknowledged that in her announcement by reverting back to the original proposals of the NCCA, and now there will be a final examination and State certification for 60% and 40% will go on projects and portfolios. Parents are concerned about this also. In a survey, 60% of parents stated they did not want teachers their own pupils' work. There are a lot of issues with this.

The Minister has imposed a precondition and has stated that is her final position. She will not engage in talks unless the teachers accept this 60:40 divide. There is no detail in terms of external moderation. There is no substance behind it and I can understand the scepticism of teachers in relation to it.

I ask the Taoiseach to remove that precondition. He should say to the Minister for Education and Skills that she should engage in talks with the unions without conditions. That could prevent the strike happening next Tuesday. We do not need a strike next Tuesday on this issue if there is an acceptance all round that there are very serious issues at play here and all stakeholders must be brought on board. That is the fundamental question I put to the Taoiseach. Will he remove that precondition to ensure meaningful talks can take place on this issue?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I regret that the teachers intend to hold a strike. The only ones who suffer from a strike in circumstances like this are the pupils and this is about them.

As Deputy Martin will be well aware, this involves provision of the most comprehensive and best-rounded education that young people can have before they enter a competitive and evolving work environment in a few short years and that is why it has been necessary to look at the concept of the junior certificate - what it stands for, how it is structured, what it means and what progress it can give to young people in secondary school. Deputy Martin's party proposed to abolish the junior certificate at one stage.

For over 30 years, there has been agreement on the need to reform the first three years of second level education. That was first proposed by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment in 1999. Undoubtedly, the current junior certificate has its strengths but it cannot allow for assessment of skills, such as teamwork, communications or creativity, which are all important in today's world. These are aspects of a modern society and they are crucial skills that young people need to have. I am sure everybody here agrees that we want the best for our young people.

The new junior certificate will allow students to study short courses in a range of areas that are relevant to their future. That is an issue about devolution of responsibility to schools which has generally been accepted. Some of these short courses will include matters such as Chinese language and culture and coding, which skills and knowledge will be of increasing importance in the future. That is obviously something being requested by schools themselves.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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It is about independent assessment.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That is not the question.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They will be able to develop their own short courses. Priority junior certificate changes in areas such as creativity, teamwork and problem solving cannot be assessed by written examination. The plan is for a reduction, from 100% to 40%, in the marks to be awarded for portfolio work, oral skills, project work and ways of assessing that are much broader than written examinations. Deputy Martin will be well aware that in Scotland, Finland, Australia and New Zealand, all countries with high performing school systems, state examinations at the end of the junior cycle have been either abolished completely or replaced with a combination of examinations and course work assessed within the school.

Since her appointment, the Minister, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, has been clear that she has been willing to listen to all of the voices in education and to compromise where she felt this was necessary. She involved herself in detailed discussions and Dr. Travers, the former president of St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra, was appointed as a chairman. The Minister offered a compromise here, that 60% of the marks in the junior cycle should be allocated on the basis of an examination at the end of the third year - down from 100% - which will continue to be set and marked by the State Examinations Commission for all subjects and that 40% of the marks should be allocated for school-based work, such as portfolios and projects, which thousands of students do at third level colleges every day of the week.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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We know all that. Assessment is the issue. The Taoiseach is out of touch again.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That work will be marked by the class teacher, who is in a much better position to provide detailed feedback to a student as he or she does in woodwork or metalwork in schools all over the country today-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Taoiseach would want to go back to school.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----to help them learn from the assessment of work. The NCCA will set out the task that should be completed and give guidance to teachers on marking of that. This is feasible to achieve.

From visiting schools all over the country, I am aware that teachers work closely on project work and assessment of that with students every day. There is nothing different here, with 60% marked by the State Examinations Commission and 40% for project work and continued assessment. It is important for young people whose teachers know them best.

The Minister has gone a long way in the interests of the pupil and reform. I would ask that we not have a strike on this because the only ones who will suffer are the students.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The bottom line here is the assessment model. No one has any issue with reform. There has been reform for the past ten years with curriculum changes on an ongoing basis.

By the way, curriculum change needs to be backed up with detail, substance and comprehensive resourcing. None of that is on the table. There is no detail on the 40% in terms of assessment of portfolios and projects. At leaving certificate level, for example, in subjects such as history, 20% can be allocated to project work or to a portfolio, but that is assessed externally.

There should be proper engagement.

From day one the Government attempted to ram this through without consultation or any engagement.

12:10 pm

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It was bulldozed.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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That was the problem. I accept the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, has moved away from that approach in a certain direction, but there should be no preconditions in terms of meaningful negotiations and working through these particular issues. It is that sort of dictatorial, arrogant approach, which has been the hallmark of the Government, that leads to such conflict situations and strikes where we do not need them. Teachers are well aware of what is being proposed, but they are not aware of any detail at all on the 40%. The countries the Taoiseach mentioned have externally moderated systems, although I accept there is not external assessment in some countries. External moderation is comprehensive and well resourced and significant preparatory training was provided. There has been a complete absence of any of that in regard to this issue.

Deputy McConalogue, as an Opposition spokesman, has been very constructive on the issue for some time, but he has identified many of the weaknesses in the past two years in terms of how the Government has approached the matter. There is no let up now, in terms of the manner in which the Taoiseach answered my question. I appeal to the Taoiseach to go back to the drawing board with the Minister for Education and Skills and engage in a respectful way on the issue with the trade unions and members in order that we can have all the stakeholders on board to ensure meaningful reform of the learning and teaching process.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin is wrong to say preconditions were set down. On her appointment as Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, said she was willing to listen, engage and become involved with all concerned. She appointed Dr. Travers, the former president of St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra, as chairman of the talks process, but the terms of reference were all proposed by the unions, not by the Minister, and the Minister accepted them. It is not true to say preconditions were set down or that the change was bulldozed through.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There cannot be any talks unless the 60:40 approach is accepted by teachers.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The terms of reference were proposed by the unions, and they were accepted by the Minister. She appointed Dr. Travers to oversee the process. The previous proposal was that teachers would be responsible for marking 100% of a student's work throughout the junior certificate. That has now changed and 60% will be marked by the State Examinations Board. Deputy Martin is aware that teachers know their students best of all from an educational point of view.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do not know why the Taoiseach is pointing that out.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin should allow me to finish. The NCCA will set out in detail the work that should be completed by each student and guidance will be provided to teachers on the marking. If the Deputy were to visit a school at the moment-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I have.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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A total of 89% of teachers say the Taoiseach is wrong. That is the reality.

Photo of Billy KelleherBilly Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Only 11% of teachers say he is right.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----where students are doing project work, for example, making a coffee table, press or table-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will Members please stay quiet?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The discussions that take place between the students and the teacher ensure that the teacher knows the range and capacity of each student and he or she can give guidance based on what the NCCA will set out as to how best the work should be completed. Teachers know the situation best and it is for that kind of project work that 40% of the marks are awarded. That is eminently achievable by teachers. Deputy Martin was wrong to say there were preconditions-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Taoiseach should stop.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----he was wrong when he said the Minister bulldozed the change through-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Preconditions were set for talks.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The Taoiseach is not talking to children now.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and he was wrong in not understanding that the propositions were put forward by the unions and accepted by the Minister.

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It was said there could be no talks unless teachers accepted the 60:40 approach.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin never listens. Following those discussions, the system was changed from 100% of marking required by teachers to 60% by the State Examinations Board and 40% by teachers-----

Photo of Micheál MartinMicheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach brought in the 100% system.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----for projects assessed by teachers who know their students best.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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In the Dáil yesterday, the Taoiseach made an allegation that people associated with Sinn Féin were most insulting to ordinary people who attended a Fine Gael Party meeting in Limerick on Monday night. What the Taoiseach said yesterday was absolutely untrue. Sinn Féin was not involved in the protest in Limerick. Our council group leader, Maurice Quinlivan, has made that clear. I presume the Taoiseach knew that or he could have checked it out before he came to the House to make the allegation, which was carried by some of the media and which is clearly part of an effort by him to demonise the anti-water charges campaign, and in particular Sinn Féin.

The reality is that thousands of reasonable people had protested very peacefully, and will continue to do so, until the water charges are abolished. People will not stop holding up their placards just because the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, wants them to do so. I look forward to a huge turnout on 10 December. We have always been very clear about protests and demonstrations, in particular in the wake of some unsavoury incidents around the anti-water charges demonstration. I and others have said the protest should be very peaceful, family-friendly and respectful. The Right2Water campaign, which Sinn Féin supports, is a broad-based movement of ordinary citizens, most of whom have never been active previously. They are expressing themselves through peaceful protest, which the Taoiseach should encourage. Will the Taoiseach now withdraw his inaccurate and untrue allegation against Sinn Féin which he made in the Dáil yesterday?

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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There should be no porkies.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There always seems to be a problem with the associates of the Sinn Féin Party.

Photo of Seán CroweSeán Crowe (Dublin South West, Sinn Fein)
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So it is not a question of Sinn Féin members; now it is associates.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I was in Clare and Limerick the other day. I do not think Deputy Adams was present himself.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I said we were not there.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will Members please stay quiet?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I am not blind. I saw the posters myself. The Sinn Féin representative, Mr. Quinlivan, said no Sinn Féin person used abusive language towards ordinary citizens leaving a party political meeting. It was absolutely disgraceful. If that is the kind of association Sinn Féin has with a broad-based protest group, then Deputy Adams, as president of his party, should say to the associates of his party that he does not want to ever hear that kind of language again.

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It was used against ordinary people, in particular women, who went to a political meeting and were walking out in the ordinary way as ordinary citizens. I remind Deputy Adams also that I have said on many occasions that it is perfectly in order for people in this country to democratically and legitimately express their concerns through protest in a peaceful way. What was witnessed in that case did not worry me but it was certainly very abusive towards women in particular. The language was simply appalling. Deputy Adams has said he has a broad-based group and that the people involved are associated with a broad-based group. There were members of his party in Limerick and in Clare and they were using abusive language. Deputy Adams was not there; I was, and I heard it.

Photo of Billy KelleherBilly Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach has become very thin skinned.

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Deputy Coonan abused the people of Dublin. He should withdraw his remark and apologise in the House.

Photo of Noel CoonanNoel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Finian McGrath should listen.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Members should please stay quiet.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I remind Deputy Adams that the Government listened very carefully to the people who expressed their concerns legitimately, peacefully and democratically on the streets.

Photo of Dessie EllisDessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach did not listen hard enough.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Government answered the queries on clarity, affordability, fairness and certainty.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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The legacy men.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is why there will be no increase in water contributions until 2019, and beyond that the Minister of the day will by law hold the authority to continue to cap water charges in order that they are affordable. The charges are now affordable. For a single person, the charge is €1.15 per week. For two adults or more, the charge is €3 per week. I had letters from a primary school in Monaghan yesterday-----

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Government wanted to charge a lot more than that.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----where young children said big people do not know how to save water. They said these water meters are very good and it will mean there will be less money spent on wasting water.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach needs a big sit down.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Will Members please be quiet?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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They have a far better view of it than Sinn Féin appears to have.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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What about Big Phil?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is Deputy Adams's business.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The issues of mandatory PPS numbers, a bonus culture, public ownership and what happens after 2019 have all been answered very clearly and very fairly. The Government did listen. The Government also listened to the kind of abusive language I heard in Limerick and in Clare.

Photo of Billy KelleherBilly Kelleher (Cork North Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is this Lilliput?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If Deputy Adams is associated with that then he should ask those people working with his party, who are broadly-based, to withdraw those remarks against women in particular. The language was abusive and filthy. I have rarely heard the likes of it before.

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Mná Fhine Gael.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If they are associates of Sinn Féin, then Deputy Adams can keep them.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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What about Big Phil?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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This is Deputy Adams's question. There is no need for the chorus from Fianna Fáil.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Yesterday, I asked the Taoiseach a very straight question in the House. I asked him whether he thought it was acceptable that the CEO of Irish Water also owns shares in a company which is set to make millions from Irish Water contracts. Of course he did not answer the question. I also asked him about the massive over-run for the installation of water meters and he did not answer that question either.

He made these spurious and untruthful remarks which he has repeated today. His answer shows a lack of a sense of grace. When he is told by me and by the leader of our group in Limerick that Sinn Féin was not involved in that protest, he should accept that.

12:20 pm

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Like Deputy Coonan when he was involved.

Photo of Regina DohertyRegina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Nobody does. Be clear.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Big people do not know how to govern. The children in Monaghan could tell the Taoiseach that.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach will answer.

Photo of Ray ButlerRay Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Adams is not in the IRA.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Stay quiet, please.

Photo of Michael Healy-RaeMichael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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He is waking up-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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You stay quiet too, please.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The Taoiseach is well able to answer for himself.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach says he is listening to people but he is not listening to people. He does not listen to the Opposition in here nor does he listen to people on the streets. He was forced into a partial U-turn on this issue so that shows people that people power is working. The Taoiseach had an opportunity to get rid of water charges and people know that so they are not fooled because he did not do so. People are scandalised by the continuous waste of public money by Irish Water. I just discovered that they spend-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please put your question, Deputy Adams.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Irish Water spends nearly €1 million every month on advisers. The Taoiseach talked about clarity. Where is the clarity about this? How much is Ervia spending on media advisers? How much is Irish Water paying? Instead of muddying the waters with these untruthful allegations, will the Taoiseach tell me why these costs are concealed from the public? Why can the public not know what is being paid to advisers, media advisers in particular?

Photo of Leo VaradkarLeo Varadkar (Dublin West, Fine Gael)
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Did Deputy Adams see the "Spotlight" programme?

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Last night's "Spotlight" programme.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Last night's "Spotlight" programme indicated that the Deputy's party is off the Richter scale in terms of the way it deals with its expenses.

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Adams might print it out for us.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Answer the question, Taoiseach.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Adams makes charges in the House. He asked the same question yesterday. Mr. McNicholas spoke on national radio yesterday morning and clarified the position in so far as his being a shareholder in NTR was concerned and he dealt with all of that.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Is it acceptable? You are the Taoiseach.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy's second point was about the difference between the estimate and the formal tender. He knows a lot about building. A person can be asked to submit an estimate of a probable cost-----

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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It cost €100 million.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----but a formal tender is obviously more accurate because it is a more detailed assessment. That is the position with regard to the water meters. The Deputy should talk to the children who wrote to me.

Photo of Sandra McLellanSandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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It is 20% out.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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We are told by Deputy Adams that we have to believe everything here. Of course, he did say, "Go and pay your water charges". He supports water charges and then he does not support water charges.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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He was never in the IRA.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We never supported water charges.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, we are over time.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Adams has changed his tune on a number of occasions. The people to his left on the political spectrum seem to be getting at him because he has abandoned ship with regard to his wealth tax-----

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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We have not.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and he is now back to putting an 8% increase in income tax on every taxpayer in the country.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach's ship is sinking.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The people of this country should know that in supporting the populism of his party, what they are being asked to do is to have their income tax increased substantially for those earning from €30,000 right up through those whom Deputy Adams deems to be wealthy, those earning from €40,000 and €50,000, hard-pressed middle Ireland. Sinn Féin will increase their income tax.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Taoiseach answer the question?

Photo of Martin FerrisMartin Ferris (Kerry North-West Limerick, Sinn Fein)
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He does not answer questions. He should try to answer the question for once.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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That is what they want to do. He told us that he has submitted his budget which was exceptionally well costed with a black hole of €300 million, €400 million, €500 million and which he expects the workers of Ireland to pay for by means of increased income taxes.

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Stop punishing the people. Stop the smears.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I do not believe the things he tells me in here. I do not believe what he told me about Clare and Limerick.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, Taoiseach, we are way over time.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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If the Deputy's people are associated, as he puts it, in a broad support group by the members who were down there the other night, then I ask him to make his statement to Mr. Quinlivan and everybody else. The kind of language used by people associated with his party-----

Photo of Gerry AdamsGerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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The Taoiseach knows that we dissociate ourselves entirely from that.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----was absolutely appalling and an affront to women in particular.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I must ask the Taoiseach to conclude.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Adams should make a statement asking every Sinn Féin member to cease association with that broad support group to which he referred.

Photo of Paul KehoePaul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Mr. Quinlivan was afraid to tell Deputy Adams the truth because he could have been court-martialled.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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For more than two years we were confronted with seemingly endless scandals of Garda malpractice. For a year and a half we heard total Government denials. Then a few heads rolled and we were given promises of reform and loads of reports. The Garda Síochána Inspectorate report insisted that a complete radical cultural change was required but the Government has decided to appoint an insider. This insider sat on the shoulder of Martin Callinan when he appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts to answer questions and at which he described the whistleblowers as "disgusting". She was doing the whispering in his ear, as his right-hand woman.

Six months ago, a whistleblower from Athlone, Nicky Keogh, was mentioned in this House. He presented indisputable evidence of Garda involvement in serious criminal activity related to drugs. Six months on, there has been no information forthcoming. Meanwhile, the garda who made the complaint has been subjected to constant weekly harassment by senior management in Mullingar, manufacturing complaints against him, monitoring everything he does and making constant demands for his source of intelligence. This has all been on her watch. The blue wall of silence has not gone away.

The Taoiseach has done a very good job of taking the heat out of the Garda issue by getting rid of the Garda Commissioner, getting rid of Shatter and getting rid of the Secretary General.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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The former Minister, Deputy Shatter.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Legislation has been delayed and reform has been promised but not delivered. It is the same policing policy but a different PR policy which has worked well for the Government. The appointment of the Garda Commissioner and in particular the appointment of the chair of the independent policing authority has been shrouded in secrecy rather than transparency.

(Interruptions).

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Government has bypassed proper protocol.

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question, please Deputy.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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How many people applied for those two jobs? How many people were interviewed for those jobs? Did anyone from outside the State apply for the Garda Commissioner job?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I note Deputy Wallace's comments of today and yesterday. I congratulate Commissioner O'Sullivan on her appointment by the Government as Garda Commissioner. She was recommended as the sole candidate for appointment, following a rigorous and independent scrutiny, analysis and interview process. This selection was part of an international competition for persons who considered themselves sufficiently competent to carry out these responsibilities and to fill this role. The selection committee comprised a number of very competent people, including the former chief of police in Boston and Seattle, Kathleen O'Toole, together with the appointed chairperson of the independent police authority and the Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach.

This is a reform process. Deputy Wallace's remarks are an insult to the Garda Commissioner. I note the comments of Sergeant Maurice McCabe who has been working with Commissioner O'Sullivan during her interim period as acting Commissioner in dealing with penalty points. He welcomed her appointment as Commissioner.

The Garda Síochána (Amendment)(No. 3) Bill is currently before the Dáil. The Bill proposes to strengthen the role and remit of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. The independent review mechanism, consisting of a panel of counsel, is examining more than 300 complaints alleging Garda misconduct or problems with investigating misconduct. The Fennelly commission of investigation is continuing its work. The report of Mr. Justice Cooke's inquiry into reports of unlawful surveillance of GSOC, has been published. The review of the Garda Síochána under the Haddington Road agreement, which is expected to be concluded shortly, encompasses all aspects of the administration and the operation of An Garda Síochána. The report of the independent review of the Department of Justice and Equality was published in July and the Minister for Justice and Equality is working closely with that senior management team to implement those recommendations. The Protected Disclosures Act 2014 has amended Garda legislation to allow Garda members to make protected disclosures to GSOC in confidence in respect of alleged Garda misconduct. The recently enacted Freedom of Information Act 2014 extends to An Garda Síochána.

I remind the Deputy, because of his concern, that when he was invited to Farmleigh House to discuss all of these matters he decided not to attend.

12:30 pm

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Minister knows I could not go that day.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Where were you?

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I was also promised we would be given an input into how the police authority would be structured.

Photo of Noel CoonanNoel Coonan (Tipperary North, Fine Gael)
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Get your priorities right.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Taoiseach speaks about insults, but with regard to the independent review mechanism, it is an insult to all of the people who have filed complaints and have come to us with complaints, some of which are not filed, that someone from the existing hierarchy would be appointed.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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No, it is not if it occurs through an independent process.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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What has been going on since Shatter left? I knew I would miss Shatter-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Shatter.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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-----but I did not think I would miss him this much. How much legislation have we seen since Shatter went?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Deputy Shatter, please.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Sorry, Deputy Shatter. We were told we would have the terms of reference for the commission of investigation, as recommended by the Guerin report, within six weeks of the report, but that was seven months ago. We were told that by the end of the summer we would have the results of the independent review mechanism on what sort of process would take place. How many months ago was that?

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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A question please.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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It is crazy. Professor Dermot Walsh, probably the leading individual on policing in Ireland, has said all along that if we want to reform policing in Ireland we must go outside the State and clean the slate. The existing hierarchy are all from the one crew. The Government will not get reform-----

Photo of Seán BarrettSeán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I ask the Deputy to please put his question.

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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-----from the existing hierarchy. Why does the Government not want change? Why has the Government not published the terms of reference for the commission of investigation as recommended by the Guerin report?

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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With regard to the file of complaints, some of them came to me. Some of them have dragged on for up to 20 years in various forms. Some have been before various assessment or court procedures. In many cases people look for particular elements of justice, as they see it, arising from these complaints. They are being examined by a panel of legal experts. The legislation in respect of GSOC is before the House. The terms of reference arising from the Guerin report will be dealt with next week.

The interview panel was completely independent. I saw the Deputy's statement that he had applied for the position as the chair of the independent policing authority, which it is in order for him to do.

Photo of Timmy DooleyTimmy Dooley (Clare, Fianna Fail)
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Steady now, Taoiseach.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It seems to me as if the Deputy has very different view of how the system should work, as he says, from the bottom up. I expect Commissioner O'Sullivan will follow through on the Garda Inspectorate's report in terms of the agenda of reform that must be set out. The Government has responded to the requirements of gardaí in terms of new vehicles and facilities for them to do their job. The Garda force has had a lot of work in the most recent past in protecting innocent citizens from those who might have other things on their mind.

It is not true for the Deputy to say this was some sort of inside job. The appointment of the Garda Commissioner was conducted through a rigorous and completely independent process of interview and scrutiny, and the name that came through to the Government for appointment as Commissioner under the Act was that of Commissioner O'Sullivan, and I wish her the very best of luck-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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So do I.

Deputies:

Hear, hear.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----in dealing with the many difficulties with which the Garda force has to contend and in being able to implement and follow through on the Garda Inspectorate's report in terms of reform-----

Photo of Mattie McGrathMattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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I hope you do not send anyone to her house.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----of the Garda Síochána. Having the Commissioner report to the police authority is a radical shift. The role and responsibility of the Garda Commissioner is changed-----

Photo of Mick WallaceMick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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She still remains answerable to the Government and not to the people.

Photo of Brendan HowlinBrendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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She could be answering to you.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----somewhat in reporting to the police authority and the Minister for Justice and Equality-----

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Recognise change.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----in terms of the security of the State.

Photo of Patrick O'DonovanPatrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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When you are Minister for Justice you can-----

Photo of Finian McGrathFinian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Be careful, it might happen.

Photo of Enda KennyEnda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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This is the most radical shift in the Garda Síochána since the foundation of the State. The Deputy might have a very different view about how it should operate.