Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I wish to raise a bread and butter issue with the Tánaiste which has a real impact on the level of disposable income of many people, the 300,000 or so, mortgage-holders who are paying a variable rate of interest which is way over the odds. The interest rates on variable rate mortgages being charged by banks in Ireland are completely unjustifiable. A person taking out a new mortgage on a variable rate can be paying anything up to 4.5% compared to a euro area average of 2.5%. For example, a person with a mortgage of €200,000, the difference in interest every year is about €4,000, that is over €300 extra per month being paid by an Irish mortgage-holder compared to a counterpart in another eurozone country. This is completely unacceptable at a time when the cost of funds for the banks is decreasing, the net interest margin is increasing very significantly and yet the cost of variable rate mortgages is not coming down, with the exception of the very welcome move announced recently by AIB.

The ECB rate reductions have not been passed on to variable rate customers and yet the Government appears to be completely disinterested in this issue. Is the Government merely a neutral bystander on this issue? Has the Government a view on the interest rates being charged by banks in respect of variable rate mortgages? Has the Government specifically discussed this issue with the banks and with the Central Bank?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I will place this issue in context. Everyone who has a mortgage, in particular younger people in the age group of 35 to 50 years, may have taken out a mortgage in good faith when Fianna Fáil was in government at the height of the boom-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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The Tánaiste should get over it.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and house prices were in a bubble. Of course we know that at a certain stage the banks stopped offering tracker deals. I am sure Deputy McGrath will be happy to acknowledge that it was very much on his party's watch that when the tracker deals ended the people who came after that period faced variable rates.

There are times in financial structures when a fixed rate can militate against borrowers and this has been proved in Irish financial history. There are times when variable rates can offer advantages and disadvantages. The critical point is that the banks should return to normal operational capacities and do what banks should do which is to offer funding and reliable sources of funding to people who have the financial resources and the employment and income structures which will allow them to borrow and to borrow at a reasonable cost rate.

As the Deputy said, the recent move by AIB to bring back competition to the variable rate market is extremely welcome. I hope it is a move by the banks towards a more competitive offering on mortgage costs because this is critical for people.

The banks are working their way through their collapse. The new managing director of PIMCO said at a recent conference in Kilkenny how foolish and misguided was Fianna Fáil's fatally flawed bank guarantee, which he maintains, destroyed the economic capacity of the country. Unfortunately, the banks are still in a recovery situation but I hope that they will now move to more competitive offerings on mortgage charges of all kinds but in particular on interest charges for current borrowers and for those anxious to purchase a family home, of which there are many, thankfully.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste has taken us on an interesting historical tour as she sees it but she avoided the key issue and she avoided answering my direct questions. The cost of funds for the banks today is in the region of 1%. Bank of Ireland has put it on the record that its cost of funds is 1.15% and yet variable rate customers are being charged up to 4.5%. It is exploitative and exorbitant and there is no justification whatsoever for it and it is being presided over by the Tánaiste's Government. Up until recently, Brian Hayes, MEP, was the Minister of State in the Department of Finance but he is now safely ensconced in the European Parliament. He has stated that variable rate customers are being fleeced and yet the Government does not seem to have a view on this issue.

The ECB rate is virtually zero. Anyone with savings will know that the banks are paying little or nothing on deposits. The cost of funds has never been lower and yet the banks are milking it in respect of the profits they are earning on variable rate customers. Both AIB and Bank of Ireland are profitable again so there is not point in the Tánaiste trying to spin that it is all Fianna Fáil's fault; that is nonsense. The banks are profitable, they are accessing money at 1% and they are charging 4.5% and the Tánaiste is standing over this. I asked her direct questions: does the Government have a view on this? Has the Government discussed this issue directly with the banks? Has the Government discussed this issue with the Central Bank? It would be very helpful if we could have some straight answers.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am glad the Deputy mentioned the Central Bank. Banks in Ireland are regulated and supervised by the Central Bank-----

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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With its eyes closed.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I put it to Deputy McGrath, as have many commentators remarked on the actions of his Government in respect of banking, that there was a grossly inadequate supervisory model in place during Fianna Fáil's time-----

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is diversionary. Is this allowed?

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, there is only one minute to answer.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Does Deputy McGrath recognise that the Central Bank is the supervisory authority for Irish banks?

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is the Government's view.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Let us be clear as to what we want for Ireland. We want functioning credit institutions which, unfortunately, the Deputy's Government destroyed. That is history.

Peter Mathews (Dublin South, Independent)
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Their boards destroyed them.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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They were destroyed as a result of the guarantee. We set up a series of regulatory structures to ensure that the supervisory authority for banking in Ireland is the Cental Bank. Deputy McGrath is a member of the finance committee. He has the power to call in the Governor of the Central Bank and to talk to him about the bank's supervision-----

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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He is coming to the committee. The Government is allowed to have an opinion.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----of the rates for the kind of mortgages we have been discussing. The Deputy is ignoring-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Thank you, Tánaiste. We are over time.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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A total of 300,000 people have been affected on the Tánaiste's watch and she has no opinion.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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You are ignoring----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am sorry-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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On the financial crash, what you are now suggesting-----

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I asked for your opinion.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----is that we ignore the Central Bank and go back to what Fianna Fáil used to do, which is to call in the bankers and order them directly. This is the road-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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This is a cop-out.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Burn the bondholders.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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If this is your policy suggestion, it is the way to return the country, should you get the chance, to another bank crash. That is what you are suggesting.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste has no opinion.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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The Government is washing its hands of 300,000 people.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is increasingly clear the Tánaiste still has not understood what the people are saying on the issue of water charges. Hard-pressed families are not looking for a temporary reduction in their bill. Families at risk of poverty, including working families, are not looking for a social welfare payment. In October, 100,000 people marched through Dublin and made this crystal clear. In November, 150,000 people marched throughout the State and made this crystal clear. They are simply not in a position to pay this unjust charge. They are opposed to it and they are telling the Government to scrap it. Instead of listening to the people, the Government is cooking up some half-baked package of measures which it hopes will get it through the next general election. This is not good enough.

The Tánaiste claims she wishes to help people so perhaps she can help today. Will she give a commitment that she will not allow unpaid water bills to be deducted at source from people's wages, pensions or social welfare? Will the Tánaiste further confirm she will not allow attachment orders to be used by Irish Water to enforce payment?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The priority of the Government is to offer people, as I have stated in previous discussions, a clear modest affordable charge with regard to Irish Water. We have listened very carefully, unlike at times Sinn Féin, to what people have had to say. We have been working on a package, which my colleague the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, is finalising. This will provide clarity on the Irish Water framework, which has as its objective the provision of clean safe water to people who live in the country, and which will also enable the future industrial and commercial development of the country so we get people back to work. This is an issue for everybody, whether on a high or low income.

In addition, for the first time since the crisis began, I am happy to say we have a budget which will mean that in January and February people will see modest reductions in the universal social charge and income tax, alongside increases in child benefit and a number of other social welfare allowances. We are very cognisant of the fact people have found it very difficult to make ends meet. The budget is a very carefully designed package to provide relief to families and individuals who depend on social protection and social welfare payments, and to families at work, especially those who have told me they would like to see reform and relief and particularly regarding the universal social charge which affects lower paid workers, about whom the Deputy is speaking, and with regard to taxation.

With regard to Irish Water, I have stated previously what I want, which is what we are working on. This is a programme for a very clear package which, I hope, will be with the House by the end of next week, which will provide certainty as to the charges over a long period of time. I stated before, and I say again, that Irish Water was far too ambitious in its timeline for the very large undertaking-----

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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You set the timeline.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----to change water provision in the country from 34 local authorities.

Arthur Spring (Kerry North-West Limerick, Labour)
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You signed off between 2012 and 2013.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy may have noticed that in the Galway and Roscommon area, as recently as this week, another 1,000 families unfortunately went on boil water notices. If Sinn Féin has decided the quality and condition of the water is not of enormous concern-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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When will you fix them? You have spent three and a half years talking about them.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----it is an abdication of where it suggests it would offer an economic recovery for the country. We are providing a tax package and social welfare package which will directly address the families, about which the Deputy is rightly concerned-----

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, United Left)
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Taxpayers are paying.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----but these families also need good quality, safe and healthy water and everyone in the country-----

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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Low income workers-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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If we are to advance employment, industry, business, tourism and agriculture we need good clean water for these purposes also. The overall programme of the Government addresses precisely the points the Deputy has raised.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Raise it in direct-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste's answer was designed not to address the precise questions I have raised. Leaving aside entirely the fact she is clearly not listening to what people have told her, here is the clarity: people have told her in unprecedented numbers to abolish this charge. That is the message.

Let me return, if I might, to the two specific questions I put to the Tánaiste, who is also the Minister for Social Protection. I asked her specifically to give an assurance to the Dáil she will not allow for unpaid bills to be deducted from people's wages, pensions or social welfare. My second question is to confirm she will not allow for attachment orders to be used by Irish Water for unpaid bills. The House will sit next Friday and I understand there will be a vote. I have wondered to myself, and there is some speculation, that emergency legislation will be presented, perhaps to allow for these very things. Will the Tánaiste put people's minds at rest and make it clear today that she will not allow for deductions of unpaid bills from wages, pensions or social welfare? Will she please address the issue of attachment orders and make it clear she will not allow for the use of such orders by Irish Water in respect of unpaid bills?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Tell the truth now and shame the devil.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I have been listening very carefully to what people have said-----

John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Was Deputy Boyd Barrett banging on the windows last night?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I have had the opportunity to be in a number of parts of the country in recent weeks, listening to people, which I do-----

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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You definitely did not listen to us because you are not answering the question.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am not sure if Sinn Féin always do, but I certainly listen to people. Listening the yesterday's debate it seems like there was a very large tin ear on the part of many of the people from the Deputy's party on very serious concerns. As I go around the country I listen to what people say to me, and I can only offer the Deputy my experience-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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You could answer my questions.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Deputy asked me about listening.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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There is a time limit.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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We asked you two specific questions.

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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Twice.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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May I tell the Deputy about listening? May I answer the Deputy's questions?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Please do.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What people say to me is they want clean reliable water. In Roscommon they tell me they do not want to have to boil water, as they have been doing for 12 years. In Dublin, restaurants and hotels tell me that to continue the tourism and hospitality trade-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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They have boiled it for ten years.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----Dublin needs a reliable supply of water but it does not have it.

Jonathan O'Brien (Cork North Central, Sinn Fein)
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We need answers, not meters, discussions and bonuses.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Please, we are over time.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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On the questions in respect of next week, I have told the Deputy already the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, is finalising a package of proposals on Irish Water. Apart from what I told the Deputy some weeks ago, no agreement has been finalised on the package.

As I think I told the Deputy some weeks ago, I am very confident that the package will be one that will address the issue of single person households and households where there are two or more people, and that the charges will be modest and extremely affordable-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I thank the Tánaiste.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What about the questions that I asked?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----particularly in the context of a budget-----

Sandra McLellan (Cork East, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste did not answer them at all.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----where the middle income families the Deputy is talking about-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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What about the questions I put to the Tánaiste?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----the low income families-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Government deduct unpaid bills from people's welfare, wages or pensions?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The budget has been built-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Sorry, Tánaiste we are over time. Would you please-----

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I have told the Deputy that the Minister, Deputy Kelly, will unveil the budget-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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A Cheann Comhairle-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are over time. I call Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----and will unveil the package next week.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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A Cheann Comhairle-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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A Cheann Comhairle-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy McDonald did not answer the questions on "Morning Ireland".

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Excuse me, a Cheann Comhairle-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I call Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan. Would Deputy McDonald resume her seat?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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No, I will not resume my seat.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Deputy McDonald did not answer the questions on "Morning Ireland".

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Resume your seat or leave the House.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I will not leave the House.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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Then I will be forced to put the motion that she leave the House.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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My questions were put very clearly.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I answered them.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste did not answer.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The Tánaiste did not answer the questions and she adopts this strategy, week in, week out.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am asking the Deputy for the final time to leave the House.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Two clear questions-----

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I am asking her to leave the House.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am repeating for the final time that I am not leaving the House.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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I name Deputy McDonald.