Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Back in 2009 the Fine Gael Party, in a policy document entitled NewERA, said it would bring all of Ireland's water assets under the ownership of one State company, Irish Water. Its document goes into considerable detail as to how Irish Water would be a super-lean and efficient operation in terms of organising the Irish water supply. Yesterday, we saw and read that the Fine Gael Deputies are now very angry with the utility they conceived of and how it has turned out, and I understand the Labour party had a meeting with Irish Water two weeks ago. Meanwhile, I understand the Joint Committee on the Environment, Culture and the Gaeltacht has written twice - or Deputy Cowen certainly has - asking to bring Irish Water before that committee, but that has not happened.

The basic point I want to put to the Tánaiste is this. I asked the Taoiseach yesterday in the House what he believed the net revenue estimate would be as a result of the imposition of water charges for domestic users - what he felt the Government would get in net revenue. He could not answer me. We have done our own calculations and we looked at responses to parliamentary questions which have come back from the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, who estimated there would be gross revenue of €300 million from domestic charges. Of course, that does not factor in the €65 million for the household benefits package or the €40 million for the tax credit, and I presume more will have to be done for the 200,000 people who are not covered by either the benefits package or the tax exemption. Therefore, even at 100% compliance, we are now looking at a net revenue figure of something like €175 million. If there is anything less than full compliance, we are looking at less than €150 million. Yet the Government has spent €650 million on the start-up costs of Irish Water. It has caused huge social upheaval, it is a gold-plated bureaucracy that is being paid for at an extraordinary level, which is really making people angry, and it has caused mayhem across local authorities, taking engineers out of every local authority in the country and swapping staff, with pension deals done to get people into Irish Water. One would have to stand back from it all and ask a very basic question. All of that for a net revenue of maybe €150 million plus-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Deputy.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Is Deputy O'Dowd not right in many respects that the whole execution, implementation and establishment of Irish Water has been an unmitigated disaster-----

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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It is crazy.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It is a super-quango.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and it does not justify the yield by any business model or any definition? All of that does not justify the yield of about €150 million. While I am not even suggesting this, putting 5 cent on a gallon of petrol would have raised the equivalent amount of revenue.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Was it worth the hassle?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Martin has given a very good resume of the role of one of the political parties in 2009, when the State was in considerable difficulty due to the collapse of the finances of the State following Deputy Martin's own actions in regard to the bank guarantee and, subsequently, in regard to the State being unable to raise funds at reasonable prices.

The creation of Irish Water - this is important - is as big an undertaking as was the creation of the ESB as a major public utility-----

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No, it is not. That is nonsense.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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We did not have electricity then.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please. The Tánaiste has the floor.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----at the foundation of the State. Irish Water is a publicly owned water service which is in State ownership and will stay in State ownership, which, in the context of some of the advice that was being received internationally by the members of the Opposition opposite me, is a significant achievement. This will allow for an investment in the next couple of years of €1.7 billion, which will be in a vehicle, a public utility owned by the State, which, like the ESB, will be able to raise money internationally.

The Deputy is suggesting that the return from Irish Water, because it is a State-owned company, will not be the same kind of return that a privately owned utility might yield.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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He never said that.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste is distorting what he said.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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He is probably correct on that. However, I believe he should actually welcome that because what we are going to get is investment into Irish Water. I just heard another Deputy refer to the level of national debt, which is high but has begun to come down significantly. In terms of cleverly managing the finances of the State on a sustainable basis, we have to invest seriously in Irish Water.

I have been shocked to read constantly since Irish Water was developed that there are lead pipes bringing water to homes-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Where has the Tánaiste been living?

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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What about the bonuses?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----in many of the 34 local authorities which previously ran what we now know to have been a completely disjointed, if not dangerous and dysfunctional service.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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If that is the case, why waste €1 billion on meters?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is going to be replaced by a national consumer-focused utility company-----

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Consumer-focused? They will not answer calls.

Robert Troy (Longford-Westmeath, Fianna Fail)
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Consumers cannot even contact them.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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It took 29 minutes to get through on the telephone.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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Maybe we should get a loan of the Tánaiste's mobile phone and ring them.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----whose job is to deliver clean, healthy water to people in Ireland. Right around Ireland, not least in the Dublin region, many families and individuals have experience in the last few years of their water supply being cut off-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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Are they not going to turn it off now?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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----- because, as we know, there was not enough water to supply the Dublin region.

Dara Calleary (Mayo, Fianna Fail)
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Where the Labour Party has been in control.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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Who controlled the council? Who controlled the water supply in Dublin? It was the Labour Party.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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On many occasions, water usage in Dublin runs at around 97% of the available supply-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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This is Leaders' Questions. A question was asked and the Tánaiste wants to reply.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What we are talking about is a clean, reliable, healthy water supply-----

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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All steam and hot air.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----which is sufficient for families and individual consumers, run by a publicly owned water company, not a privatised water company charging whatever it likes, which, by the way, is unfortunately what happened in regard to some of the campaigns concerning refuse collection.

Michael McGrath (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste is spoofing. She is talking down the clock.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Tánaiste.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I would expect Fianna Fáil to actually welcome €1.7 billion in investment in clean, safe water.

Seán Fleming (Laois-Offaly, Fianna Fail)
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What about the bonuses?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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As a former Minister for Health, Deputy Martin is one of the few people who would have a detailed appreciation of the dangers to children and to older people of unhealthy water transmitted through lead pipes.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The pipes are in the gardens.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you, Tánaiste. I call Deputy Martin.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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We have had the debate about Roscommon, and we know that, but we have to look at what the local authorities have revealed about Irish water since we replaced 34 separate systems with one national system.

Mattie McGrath (Tipperary South, Independent)
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With one dysfunctional body.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That system will take time to bed down, and I acknowledge that. I acknowledge that there are communications issues and establishment problems, but it is a very big national enterprise.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There are many ways to raise funding and many ways to do things. The Fine Gael Party, not in any context of the prevailing situation, believed in establishing a whole range of utilities. This was in its NewERA document, which the current Minister, Deputy Coveney, developed at that time. I do not know who worked with him to develop those ideas, but they were very strong and bullish about it. To be fair, they also said that local authorities would act as agents for Irish Water in maintaining and upgrading water infrastructure. In other words, the delivery system remains within the local authorities despite the incredible edifice that has been established at a start-up cost of €650 million.

I asked the Tánaiste a very simple question. We have had four ways of assessing water charges. This is the 16th day on which water charges have been imposed and many are still hopelessly confused about what the bills will. Some of the water metering process is of a dubious nature because, from what we are told, some people will not even be able to read their meters. The bottom line is that all it is, in revenue terms, is €150 million; that is the net amount that will be raised. It has caused huge issues within local authorities which will have legacy issues to deal with down the line in terms of pension payments. The bottom line is that the Government must stand back and ask a very simple and basic question. Is it worth it? Is the establishment of Irish Water worth all of the challenges and the extraordinary expense involved in setting up a gold-plated bureaucracy?

I have the figures from EIRVIA. The Taoiseach told the Dáil last week that no bonuses had been paid to Irish Water staff. The Tánaiste might clarify for me or obtain clarification for me because EIRVIA has certainly paid out over €5 million to about 900 staff in 2014. Last year, it had 500 staff on the books. I need clarification as to whether that figure includes personnel within Irish Water. The Tánaiste may not have the information at her disposal, but will she undertake to get it for me? However, the basic question I am putting to her is whether all of this - the €650 million in start-up costs and more - is worth the €150 million in net revenue? Surely it could have been done in a much easier way with greater compliance from the public who would have engaged in a far more supportive way in the context of the Irish Water debacle? I am not using the word "debacle"; it relates to comments made by the former Minister of State, Deputy Fergus O'Dowd, who established Irish Water. Words failed him in describing it and he was involved in setting it up.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The question the Deputy is raising concerns whether it is worthwhile investing in and developing a clean, reliable water supply for the people of Ireland.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I did not say that.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am answering the Deputy's question. There were 34 local authorities doing this during the Celtic tiger era when the Deputy was in office as Minister for Health when he often spoke extremely convincingly about public health issues, for which I recognised him, and defended the adequacy of public health services. The stuff that went on in local authorities, even during the richest period in the recent history of the country, did not result in the provision of drinkable water. The Deputy may remember what happened in Galway. When one almost went to the borders of Galway, people involved in every kind of business were handing out bottles of water because the water was undrinkable. These failures which the Deputy may remember happened during his time as Minister for Health and about which I recall him speaking stemmed from a lack of investment in proper water treatment facilities.

One of the most difficult aspects of this issue for people is the fact that we know that we have so much rain. How is it that we have the chaos that happened in Galway, with almost the total destruction of tourism and commerce at the time? The Deputy must remember it because his party came into the House and answered very concerned and worried Members with questions at the time. If he wants to take a responsible view of politics, further investment to ensure the health of citizens and the adequacy of water supplies are essential. I am telling him that the best way to do this is not through 34 local authorities which failed but through a single, modern, consumer-focused utility which will not be gold-plated but which will actually deliver a proper service at a cheap and efficient price to consumers. It is going to take time to establish it, but it will be established.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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It is now clear to everybody with an ounce of common sense that the Tánaiste is presiding over an absolute shambles in Irish Water and worse in respect of the Government's decision to impose domestic water charges on struggling families. Tens of thousands of people took to the streets of Dublin last Saturday and told the Government loud and clear that they could not afford these charges. By the way, they are not the consumer focus people want or need. I repeat to the Tánaiste because she does not seem to get it that thousands of families throughout the State do not have the money to pay water charges, full stop. They cannot pay. We know that the Government has held over these families the threat that their water supply will be reduced to a trickle and potential court actions and judgments, but the situation is far worse. I have a letter sent by Wicklow County Council to rental accommodation scheme, RAS, tenants, the scheme administered by the Tánaiste's Department. The letter makes it clear to these tenants that a failure to pay their water charges could result in their eviction. Therefore, not only do we have a threat to the supply of water and of potential court action, we also discover that the very roof over people's heads may be in jeopardy. The Tánaiste is aware that there are 36,000 families in the RAS scheme; therefore, I want her to tell me and the Dáil how it is that she authorised the issuing of such a threatening letter to these families. I want her to make it clear to them and other local authority tenants that nobody will be evicted because he or she cannot pay his or her water charges.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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My understanding is that councillors representing the Deputy's party, Independents and Fianna Fáil control Wicklow County Council. I, therefore, suggest to her that when she gets time in her busy schedule, she pick up the telephone and make a call to her own public representatives who serve on that county council and suggest to them that they might have a conversation with management of the local authority? I am happy to say that, as a consequence of the budget and in connection with the families about whom the Deputy spoke in County Wicklow and other council areas throughout Ireland who are entitled to rent supplement supported by my Department, as well as older people, something like 700,000 households will receive a water support payment via the Department of Social Protection in quarterly instalments of €25. That would be the first thing about which I suggest Sinn Féin councillors advise affected families. Second, as the Deputy will have heard from the Taoiseach, water payments have been capped - the maximum payments people in the situation described by her will pay will be severely limited. The Minister for Finance will explain in detail the measures for people at work when the Finance Bill is debated in the House. A considerable support structure has been put in place. The Deputy has just heard the leader of Fianna Fáil question whether that support structure will be worthwhile. That support structure which, as the Deputy noted, will cost up to €100 million will be worthwhile.

The goal is to have a safe and clean water system for our population, including those who are on low incomes in RAS and local authority properties in County Wicklow, many of whom are represented by Sinn Féin councillors. It is important that they have a clean and reliable supply of water. As treated water is expensive, I would expect the Sinn Féin members of Wicklow County Council to suggest to the local authority manager that people should be encouraged to conserve the water they use for household or gardening purposes in order to reduce the cost of metered water to everybody, including themselves. When the metering system is working, families with lower usage will get a rebate on their usage. We are putting in place a modern system that supplies everybody with good, healthy and clean water, including industry, for the jobs that Wicklow absolutely requires and needs. In all my dealings with Wicklow over the years, this has been a key factor in developing the county, not to mention agriculture or the people on group water schemes in Wicklow, who pay for their water and who need high assurances about the quality of that water. I ask the Deputy to pick up the telephone and ask them to speak to their manager. I am shocked that they would permit a letter to issue.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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They do not have influence. It is a management decision.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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What are they doing?

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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What are you doing?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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They are paid a part-time stipend. What are they doing if they are not speaking to their manager about this?

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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If anyone had any doubts as to whether you give a toss about struggling families, your smart-alec, dismissive and inaccurate response gave them their answer.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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That is not fair.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Through the Chair, please.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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A smart-alec Tánaiste thinks it is smart to disregard the concerns of RAS tenants that their inability to pay her awful charge could jeopardise their homes.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Cop on. It was a failing of the previous Administration.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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You stood up to give me a smart-alec response. That is not good enough. I apologise if this breaches Dáil etiquette, but let us call it what it is.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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That is rich coming from you.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The fact is that local authority management administers government policy. Despite - I presume - knowing how people struggle, the Government is insistent on these water charges. Council management, on behalf of the Tánaiste, has written to tenants-----

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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That is not true.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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-----to state that failure to pay the charge will jeopardise their homes.

Emmet Stagg (Kildare North, Labour)
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The councils decide that policy.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Let us try again to get an answer, and let us hope for a serious and respectful answer from the Tánaiste.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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She will have to take advice.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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The fact is that people are struggling, never mind the €100 alleviation. People are down to their cents. Does the Tánaiste understand that? They do not have the money to pay. Can she please get to her feet and confirm for the 36,000 families on RAS that their failure to pay this bill will not mean - be categoric - that they lose the roofs over their heads?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Deal with the real issues, not point scoring.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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Can she at least have the decency to answer that question directly for those families?

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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The Minister of State, Deputy Simon Harris, will tell her what to say.

Simon Harris (Wicklow, Fine Gael)
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Jackie Healy-Rae will tell his son what to say.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I ask for silence to allow the Tánaiste to respond.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In regard to my concerns about families who are on low incomes or are unemployed, the budget contains €200 million of spending. I am happy to say this includes the restoration of the Christmas bonus on a partial basis and the payment to the kinds of family to which Deputy McDonald referred, and all the other families in Ireland, of a small but significant sum of €5 per month in child benefit.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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That was not the question.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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It would not buy a pack of nappies.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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For families in this category, this is about my concern to see those families and their children prosper and thrive. A back to work family dividend of €30 per week will be paid where somebody in the household takes up employment. I am not sure that Deputy McDonald has much personal experience of what it is like not to be well off or to be unemployed.

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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You are getting personal now.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In choosing to lecture me about issues like that-----

Mary Lou McDonald (Dublin Central, Sinn Fein)
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I am looking for your answer.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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-----or other Deputies-----

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Would you ever answer a question?

Pearse Doherty (Donegal South West, Sinn Fein)
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Answer a question about your own party's policy.

Ray Butler (Meath West, Fine Gael)
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Angry words.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Tánaiste was asked a question and I ask the House to allow her to reply.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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She has not answered the question.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I will answer it now.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Let the Minister of State, Deputy Harris, answer it.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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My understanding - perhaps Deputy Pearse Doherty will be able to clarify the matter - is that the chairperson of the housing special policy committee, SPC, in Wicklow is a representative of Sinn Féin.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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That is your policy.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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My understanding-----

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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This derisory-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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In fairness to Sinn Féin, it has taken on responsibilities in the North. It has included-----

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Answer the question. "Yes" or "No".

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Anger.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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There are a lot of angry men in Sinn Féin. Try to control it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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There is a lot of worry among Labour Party Deputies.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Still no answer.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is being turned on and off like the water tap. Try to put a stop to it.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Answer the question.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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The same letter would apply to all people on rent supplement.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Ellis, that is enough.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Stick with the script.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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Deputy Ellis has long experience and a good record of working on Dublin City Council. He knows as well as I do what an SPC does.

Dessie Ellis (Dublin North West, Sinn Fein)
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I also know what a contract is.

John Lyons (Dublin North West, Labour)
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Listen up.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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This is Leaders' Questions. You all want to be leaders.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The chairperson of the housing SPC should take that up directly with the county manager.

Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Are you saying there is no policy?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is what I would expect him to do.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The Tánaiste expressed horror about water going through lead pipes. I assure her that when all the water meters are in place, most of those lead pipes will still be there.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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You should know.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I want to discuss housing, which is an incredibly big problem for this country in many ways. Poor people live in poor areas. Poor housing policy intensifies social and economic disadvantage. We have problems with planning, which has been market- and developer-led for a long time. There is a shadow planning system whereby the big players observe a different set of rules. There is a particular rhetoric pertaining to the social good, but the reality is different. For a long time, this State has promoted social exclusion and segregation because it helped to keep property prices up. There was no interest in refurbishment and renewal. There is only interest in big sites because they are what the developers like and where they can make more money.

The State can play a part in addressing that issue. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, expressed yesterday some reservations about the site value tax which has been tossed around for the last while. This is at the core of a great many of our problems with housing in Ireland. It will be madness if the Government fails to address the issue. To provide a small example, I bought a fifth of an acre in 1997 for £150,000 but seven years later in 2004, I paid €5 million for a fifth of an acre. It was a 30-fold increase. That happened because the State is dominated by people who bank land and sell it when they think it is a good time to do so. They will hold on to it when it suits them. The notion of not taxing that asset which is growing in value is outrageous.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Does the Deputy have a question?

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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The private sector is as problematic as the social sector. There is no rental security for people. We have just seen the Central Bank come up with new mortgage rules - three and a half times one's wages and a 20% deposit. We can see that three and a half times one's wages is a good measure to ensure that people can repay, but what does the 20% deposit mean? How many of our children will be able to afford to get on the home ownership ladder? A great many Irish people will not own homes in future and social housing will have to become the order of the day. It is great that the Government has started to spend some money on it, but it is only scratching the surface. There will have to be a massive investment from the State in this area. The idea that social housing is only for the poor must go. We must build quality social housing with all the necessary surrounding facilities for at least half the people in the years ahead.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I will come back to the Deputy.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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My question is to the Tánaiste.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy is way over time.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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Is the Tánaiste prepared to fight for a site tax and is she prepared to act on rent control? Only today, Fr. McVerry is saying that the fact that we have not done anything about rent control is driving people into homelessness. The Government has still not done anything about it.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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I am delighted that the budget provides for a capital investment of €2.2 billion in social housing provision over the next three years. I thank Deputy Wallace for acknowledging that. The plan will involve investing €1.5 billion directly from the Exchequer with public private partnerships and off-balance sheet vehicles to get approximately €400 million more in by 2017. There will also be an off-balance sheet financial vehicle to provide another €400 million from 2015 onwards to approved housing bodies, of which Deputy Wallace will know there are quite a few in Wexford. Approved housing bodies have provided good social housing for people including very often those with specific needs and requirements and older people. I have seen commentators from every part of the spectrum welcome strongly this budgetary provision. It is the way to go.

In relation to the Central Bank consultation, I stress that the bank is independent. Part of the reason for the crash in the building industry was tax breaks for investment in property. Deputy Wallace has seen more than most of us of the ups and downs of the property game. Many people who worked hard lost everything. However, we must learn from that lesson. It is important to have prudential regulation which we did not have at the height of the period of the boom. As with all booms, the behaviour then was irresistible and it was only when there was a crash that people could look back and say we did not do it right. The income limit the Central Bank proposes is reasonable. On the issue of the deposit, I have heard many organisations and individuals make comments querying that. It is a public consultation process and it is open to every Member, party and grouping in the House to put forward their views on this to the Central Bank. It is important outside of party politics that people give the Central Bank the benefit of their views and expertise in the area. I recommend strongly that people do that.

I strongly support the development of social housing. I agree with Deputy Wallace that we do not want to go back to the enormous local authority estates of 650 houses. In my constituency, there are 2,500 local authority houses. They are very good quality houses and often better than some of the buildings put up at the height of the boom as they were built and supervised of local authorities. However, we want to see mixed housing with people of all incomes and ages being able to live in their own towns and cities in appropriate, good quality housing that is well insulated and takes into account the climate change issues that face the planet. We need warm insulated homes. We have provided significantly for that since taking office.

Peadar Tóibín (Meath West, Sinn Fein)
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It is less than 10% of the housing stock.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Labour Party has been examining the issue of rent controls. I was brought up in a rented home, which is something I am not sure many Members were. While it is a very good way to provide homes for families, those families need security of tenure. Traditionally in Ireland, people want to own their own properties. Young couples who are working and raising families desire ownership of a house, which is a good thing. However, there should be various models available. From the 1960s to the 1980s, the courts struck down in a series of judgments provisions in relation to rent control. While it is something that will have to be examined, the courts at the highest levels have ruled on the matter which meant the old system was dismantled. It is something we will need to address as a society.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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As the Tánaiste mentioned the issue of the quality of the homes that are to be built, I note that deregulation happened in 1990. The measures introduced by Phil Hogan as Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to deal with the problems we have seen in construction will do nothing. The Government has still not gone back to inspections. Local authorities inspect between 10% and 15% of built properties and that is usually at only one stage of construction. This is outrageous. If the Government is interested in ensuring that houses are built properly, it must inspect them. Currently, we have the National Housing Authority, local authority housing departments and housing associations. It is all over the shop. There is no housing strategy.

The Tánaiste refers to bringing things in soon and I will be interested to see what that entails, but I suggest that before the Government implements a housing strategy that it reads "Spatial Justice and the Irish Crisis" by Gerry Kearns of NUI Maynooth and his colleagues. They point out that what has added to our problems is the way in which NAMA and the banks have behaved by throwing large quantities of stock onto the market to be bought by investment funds for half their value. That is what has happened.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Mick Wallace (Wexford, Independent)
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I have said it before. They have sold apartments for €100,000 that could not be built for €200,000. Why the Government did not buy them itself, I do not know. NAMA has behaved like a secret organisation. It is not open to freedom of information and is staffed by bankers and so-called "property experts" who were recruited from the agencies that were bailed out by NAMA itself. Gerry Kearns points out that NAMA has not been charged with addressing issues of spatial justice or the public interest. Will the Tánaiste take on that mantle? We need spatial justice and to place the public interest at the heart of a housing strategy. The Tánaiste did not answer my question about whether she will push for a vacant site value tax. Will she do that in her official capacity?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, will launch the housing strategy sometime next week. The launch of this major policy document on social and other housing will be significant. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, is examining the tax arrangements for vacant sites. I will talk to him about it and come back to the Deputy later.

The Deputy asked detailed questions about specific elements of housing regulations. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, is examining at regulations that impede the ordinary work of those involved in the construction of good quality housing. I will ask him to come back to the Deputy on this issue specifically which is one of concern. On the other hand, rather like the Central Bank, one needs a proper system of regulation and inspection. Someone either buying or renting a house has no serious control over the building project. He or she relies on the planning laws and the inspection and powers of the local authority to be their guardians. I hope that not just the local authorities but also the construction industry have learned from the lessons of the collapse and will be committed to quality building. I also hope they will not leave people in the difficult situations I have seen of problems with the poor quality of building and insulation, particularly noise insulation in apartments. While I will discuss this issue with the Minister, perhaps the Deputy might table a parliamentary question on it to have a more detailed discussion at Question Time with him. It is an important social issue that people have homes and can bring up their children in homes that they can rent on terms they can afford to pay. One of the oldest slogans in Irish politics is, “Security of Tenure”.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Not if one is in the RAS, rental accommodation scheme.

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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That is an old slogan but still an important one.

The public purse is the way to properly provide for social housing. I know that many Members opposite, some of whom are present, are opposed to taxation of any kind. They say to people there is no need for any taxation, yet they still can have all of the services they want. One cannot have quality public housing without having a sound economy and a structure of finances that allows one to invest.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What about taxing corporations?

Paul Murphy (Dublin South West, Socialist Party)
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Is it the knowledge box?

Joan Burton (Dublin West, Labour)
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It is a little like the last discussion. It is not possible to claim that one can have no taxation or charges but one can have the finest of services. It just does not work like that.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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No one over here said that it did.

Deputies:

Who said it?

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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We said, “Do not hammer the poor.”