Pádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I commend Deputy Ross on his Bill. Given the various scandals that have emerged in the administration of justice, we need to challenge the political control of policing and particularly the appointment of senior police officers by a Minister and, in turn, backed by the Government. We have seen various examples of this. The former Garda Commissioner, Martin Callinan, announced the closure of 140 Garda stations and a 10% cut in Garda numbers. In some Garda districts the cutbacks ran to a level of almost 30%, while hundreds of Garda vehicles were also cut. All of this was described as efficiency, modernisation and smart policing by the former Commissioner, to the fury of his own men and women serving on the ground right up to sergeant and inspector level. The lower and middle Garda ranks were furious about the position taken by the former Garda Commissioner.

The former Minister for Justice and Equality repeatedly protected the former Garda Commissioner and senior gardaí from proper accountability and analysis of their performance. We had that unhealthy situation for far too long, so we clearly need to see the independent appointment of senior gardaí.

Sinn Féin has published its own proposals on these matters. We want to see the promised new Garda authority - and I believe it will happen - appointing the Garda Commissioner along with the deputy and assistant commissioners.

Last week, members of the Oireachtas Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality had an opportunity to visit our opposite numbers in the North. We also met the Police Ombudsman up there and the PSNI board. The following day we went to Scotland to meet the new police authority that oversees Police Scotland. Up to recent years, the Scottish police had eight constabularies, while there is now one with a Chief Constable accountable to the Scottish Police Authority. That authority appoints senior police, while the PSNI appoints senior police in Northern Ireland.

The PSNI board has 19 members, ten of which are serving politicians appointed by the d'Hondt system which is based on the strength of political parties or independents. That board recently unanimously appointed a Chief Constable, which is quite remarkable in a divided society. They have every confidence in the new Chief Constable. There is rigorous accountability and most of their business meetings are held in public session. That is the way to go and it is what we want to see. We want to support Deputy Ross's Bill as an interim measure but we need safeguards and assurances prior to the establishment of the new Garda authority.

Because of the scale of the crisis and the challenges we face, there is now a political consensus that we need an independent Garda authority. We trust that the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, will ensure that happens. The Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality will soon be making unanimous recommendations on an all-party basis. I have no doubt we will recommend the type of model we would like to see. Clearly, we want to see an independent Garda authority but it remains to be decided how many people will sit on it, if it will have political representatives, and what will be the scope of its responsibilities.

One of the issues that arose in Scotland concerned an inevitable tension in this new dispensation whereby the new authority was in conflict with senior police on issues including budgets and human resources. Their advice to us was to ensure the legislation is very clear on what the new Garda authority will do and what it has control over, so there is no unnecessary conflict at the start.

The model we propose is for a Garda authority with 20 members from a variety of backgrounds, including legal, human rights, academic, civil society and law enforcement expertise. While we believe there should be political representation, it should be in a minority on that board and based on the d'Hondt allocation system. Our colleagues in the North have testified how well that has worked. Of course, they have disagreements but in the main they work together to ensure they can deliver a new policing model.

It is an exciting time despite the crisis we have had. To borrow from the Chinese philosophy, the flip side of crisis is opportunity. We now have a real opportunity to complete the unfinished business that followed the Morris tribunal. We had the Garda Síochána Act 2005 which brought in the new Garda Ombudsman and the Garda Inspectorate. However, we now need to see a profound change in the relationship between the Minister for Justice and Equality and the police. An independent Garda authority is required. We also need to see a change in culture throughout the organisation.

The mistake we made was to bring in the oversight model but without a shadow of a doubt the Garda Ombudsman did not have the requisite powers to fulfil its responsibilities. However, we did not seek a change in the existing culture of An Garda Síochána from the person at the front desk right up to the Garda Commissioner. When she first took up her new portfolio, I heard the Minister say in a radio interview that it is a closed culture. I entirely agree with her. Police services tend to be closed cultures. They have a command structure and it tends to be an attitude of everybody being in this together. We need to find a way of maintaining that loyalty and team approach while at the same time creating a space whereby real criticism and analysis can take place.

Minor complaints, such as how a Garda in a station dismissed somebody's concerns, should not have to go through the legalities of GSOC. That type of issue should be resolved by local Garda management with the Garda involved feeling comfortable in saying that he or she could have handled that better. A degree of common sense needs to be introduced.

I am sure the Minister is already examining models in the North and elsewhere. We can learn an awful lot from models in the North and in Scotland. They have already been through many teething problems and challenges that we do not need to go through because we can learn from their experience.

I look forward to working with the committee to put forward our recommendations.

Deputy Ross has rightly tried to guarantee in legislation that an independent system will be established for the appointment of senior police officers. I am sure he will agree that when the new Garda authority comes into being, it should have the power to hire the Garda Commissioner, the deputy commissioner and assistant commissioners and, if need be, to fire them. They need to have those teeth from the outset.

We support allowing this Bill to proceed to Committee Stage because we believe it is a worthwhile intervention. However, we hope it will not be necessary and that the new Garda Commissioner will be appointed through an open process managed by the Public Appointments Service and ratified by the new independent Garda authority.

Jerry Buttimer (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
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An Garda Síochána is a fundamental component in the functioning of communities and our society. Thankfully, since the foundation of the State the vast majority of our population have trusted the Garda, and gardaí in turn have protected our State and its people. In the context of discussing Garda reform, we should not forget the historic role played by the Garda and the immense work done by members of the force on a daily basis as they serve our people while at the same time helping to develop communities and a sense of togetherness.

It is important that every organisation examines how best it can serve the citizen and how it can operate in an effective and successful manner. All organisations change over time, and An Garda Síochána is no different. The events that have occurred in the past number of months, including the Cooke and Guerin reports, allegations by whistleblowers and the operation of the penalty points system, have made it clear that we must examine the structure and organisation of the Garda. If public confidence in and support for the Garda is to be maintained, change is necessary. The Garda, the Government, Members of this House and the public acknowledge the need for reform. Change is needed so that the Garda can be protected and it can do its job in way that is transparent and meets the needs of society in a modern Ireland.

This Bill presents us with an opportunity to begin our discussion on change and to consider what the Government has proposed. I thank Deputy Ross for introducing the Bill to the House but it deals with only one aspect of the reforms that are required without considering the need for holistic change to be implemented in the coming months. The entire policing structure of our State must work seamlessly. We cannot permit a disjointed approach. It is imperative that reform is considered in an overall context. Introducing reform in a piecemeal manner is not an option because we must ensure that change is implemented on a comprehensive basis as part of an overall package driven by the Minister for Justice and Equality. Such a package would include consideration of the establishment of an independent Garda authority, the appointment of a Garda Commissioner through open competition, the need to take whistleblowers seriously and the role of GSOC. We must also examine the way in which gardaí are recruited and promoted, and how the chain of command can be seen to operate in an open and transparent manner. This is a timely Bill which introduces matters that are necessary for us to discuss but we must take a holistic approach rather than act in a piecemeal manner.

Áine Collins (Cork North West, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Ross for bring this Bill before the House. However, it appears to me that it is premature and may be irrelevant because there is general agreement in this House that a Garda authority should be established. The key functions proposed for the new independent Garda authority would address all of the issues raised in this Bill. Public attitude surveys have consistently found high levels of satisfaction in the Garda among the general public but, as has been noted in submissions supporting the establishment of the Garda authority, recent events have highlighted the need to protect the credibility of the force. The importance of open and transparent oversight and accountability in achieving this aim cannot be overstated. The Northern Ireland Policing Board is regularly cited as a model that could form the basis for a Garda authority in this jurisdiction. One of the primary functions of the board is to appoint and, if necessary, dismiss the Chief Constable of the PSNI and specified senior officers. If we are to establish an authority in this jurisdiction it is reasonable to assume that the power to appoint or dismiss the Garda Commissioner and other senior gardaí should be the prerogative of the independent authority.

The Labour Party has already published a paper drafted by Deputy Anne Ferris in her role as Vice-Chairman of the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality that outlines the powers and responsibilities such an authority might possess. The proposal also recommends the establishment of an implementation committee to review current Garda structures and make early recommendations to the Minister regarding the establishment of a new Garda authority. There is consensus on the objective to be achieved but detailed elements of the reforms are subject to negotiations between Fine Gael and the Labour Party. Among the key issues that will need to be addressed are the appointment of a Garda Commissioner and certain senior officers through open competition; approval of promotions of senior gardaí; and holding the Garda Commissioner to account.

While the Bill before us focuses on the Garda, it also proposes to replace or amend existing structures in the public service in respect of other appointments at senior level. While all structures should be kept under review, the case has not been made that existing structures are unfit for purpose. The proposed structure could in fact lead to a more politicised system of appointments at the most senior level in public service organisations rather than allowing a candidate to be selected on merit. All of the sections of the proposed Bill are being considered in the context of legislation on an independent Garda authority. In this context, the general theme of the Bill is irrelevant because it is superseded by the Government's more comprehensive approach.

John O'Mahony (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the opportunity to contribute briefly to the debate on this Bill, which allows us to address the issues that have been in the headlines for all the wrong reasons. I commend the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, on acting speedily to set a process in train to deal with a multitude of problems and introduce badly needed reform. Members on all sides of the House will agree that the process should be transparent and accountable, and help to restore confidence in our police force and the morale of gardaí on the front line. I agree with the thrust of what Deputy Ross is trying to achieve with this Bill in regard to removing political influence from the appointment of Garda Commissioner and senior officers. The question arises, however, of how we will achieve that objective. I agree with the Minister that it is an obvious task for the new Garda authority and welcome that the authority will be in place by the end of this year. These appointments should be made transparently on the basis of merit. Anecdotally, some members of the Garda believe that appointments were not made on the basis of merit. This is an opportunity to make a clean slate.

The new Garda authority will be key to this reform. It should create a buffer between the Garda, on the one hand, and the Government of the day, on the other. It is also key to the restoration of confidence in the Garda, which has been affected by the many controversies that have arisen. I suggest that the authority should not only oversee senior appointments but also the entire strategy.

There should be a strategy drawn up that would have to be reported on to this House, and there should be accountability on targets. There should also be an annual report on policing to the Oireachtas.

Morale has been at a low ebb in recent months among the 99.9% of the Garda that is good, which is unfortunate. All these gardaí work to the highest standards and they put their lives at risk protecting law-abiding citizens in a modern society where human life is not as highly regarded as it was once. We need to start this process quickly and the announced reforms will succeed in restoring that confidence and morale in the Garda Síochána.

Michelle Mulherin (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Minister dealt fairly with the issue in her response to the Bill as put before the House. I went through the Bill, which left me perplexed, and then I had to listen to Deputy Ross outline his basis for the Bill. I am very surprised that a parliamentarian with the experience and background of Deputy Ross would introduce a Bill like this now. The Bill sets out a process for appointing a Garda Commissioner that would turn into a political circus. An individual would partake in an open competition - which sounds good - with a board making recommendations before the process comes for debate here. Would this really be about the suitability of the person or would it be another case of politicising a very important position of Garda Commissioner, the top job for law and order in this country? Who in a right mind would put his or her name forward for a character assassination in here, as that is all that happens? It is a matter of opinion and somebody will have dug up an issue for everybody.

Deputy Ross spoke about setting up another anonymous body, which seems accountable to nobody. At least politicians are accountable and although we are not perfect, we are a good reflection of the public at all levels of society. Deputy Ross speaks of setting up an anonymous body that is not accountable but the buck should stop with politicians rather than with another layer of bureaucracy or a committee; such bodies usually end up as a buffer for politicians to hid behind. Let us be accountable and make decisions, as that is what government is about.

The Bill completely ignores the examination and reform being considered or undertaken by the Minister. Surely it should have recognised the planned new Garda authority and the imminent discussions with key stakeholders on their views of how the body should look and the best way forward for Garda reform. Why has this legislation been tabled? The issue is too easy and it relates to the Garda. It is very easy to give an impression of championing something when in reality nothing is being done. We must call a spade a spade with the politicisation of policing matters.

The Cooke report has detailed what happened with the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, indicating that fears it was bugged were unsubstantiated. Politicians jumped up and down without evidence, praying and crossing their fingers that GSOC was bugged by the Garda, which would lead to a field day. Politicians threw accusations and vilified the then Minister for Justice and Equality and the former Garda Commissioner. Where is all the great evidence now? That was shocking conduct. I commend the Minister in her efforts to address these problems but there is a responsible way to do this, as opposed to grandstanding and posturing. Too much of that goes on here.

James Bannon (Longford-Westmeath, Fine Gael)
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It is undeniable that there is a deep-rooted problem within the Garda Síochána and the way in which whistleblowers within the force were treated was deplorable. The attitude shown towards people working tirelessly trying to expose the truth has been, to borrow a word from the former Garda Commissioner, disgusting. From the outset I outline my appreciation for Sergeant Maurice McCabe, former Garda John Wilson and the many other whistleblowers out there. They have demonstrated courage and a willingness to put their jobs and reputations on the line, which is something we can only hope to match.

A key development will be the establishment for the first time of an independent Garda authority, which will undoubtedly be the most significant change in the oversight of the Garda Síochána since the foundation of the State. I want to see the independent Garda authority as a leading light of reform within the force and I would like to see the necessary legislative proposals brought forward this year so the authority can be in place as soon as possible. One of the authority's roles should be to have an involvement in the process of appointing the most senior members of An Garda Síochána. There are comparable bodies such as the policing authorities in the North or Scotland, which have an important role in single police appointments. The next Garda Commissioner must not be a political appointment but rather the best person for the job. It is all very well setting up a Garda authority and having an inquiry but the change must come from within. In order to start the process we need a Garda Commissioner who has not yet been tainted.

It is premature to make a decision now, as we must discuss the role of the Garda authority, which I hope will bring about the reforms requested by this Bill and more. I look forward to the forthcoming introduction of the independent Garda authority, and there is no doubt that the Garda structure must be reformed. Nevertheless, we must not make any hasty decisions, as we know what such decisions brought in the past. This is a deep-rooted issue which does not have a quick fix. I congratulate the new Minister and wish her well in her new portfolio. She has done a good job to date and she is very thorough. I have no doubt she has the respect of the nation.

Joe O'Reilly (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I thank my former Seanad colleague, Deputy Ross, for his input to the debate. He is essentially proposing a public appointments process for senior Garda officers, including the Garda Commissioner. Given that the Government is committed to the establishment of an independent authority, Deputy Ross must accept on reflection that the proposition is premature. It is likely and reasonable that a new independent Garda authority will be part of the appointments process, and there may be room for Oireachtas committee involvement.

It is important that Deputy Ross accepts the reality that the Government is committed to the appointment of a Garda Commissioner by an independent body, which is a strong stance. The Garda Inspectorate is to carry out a comprehensive inquiry into a serious crime investigation and management issues arising from the Guerin report. There is also the current Toland review of the Department of Justice and Equality and the Cooke report has been published. It would be wrong of us not to say that the Cooke report totally exonerates the former Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, and I am proud to say that. The Fennelly report is also pending, which examines the telephone calls issue.

It is clear that this Government is anxious to reform and accelerate that process. No one in the Dáil could suggest a better person to do that than the Minister, who has an extraordinary record of reform in her previous ministerial role.

If Deputy Ross were to reflect on this he should be happy that an independent process to appoint the Commissioner is en route and that all the other reforms are in place. It is very important, while we deal with the fall-out from the Guerin report and the matters that should be changed, to recognise that we are very well served by gardaí, that we have an excellent relationship with them, and that an impartial, highly professional and courageous Garda force polices our State.

This Government has grasped all the issues and is acting on the various reports it has commissioned. The Commissioner will be appointed independently and the independent Garda authority will be set up. The Toland report on the Department is in progress. While it is a good thing that Deputy Ross has tabled this Bill, he could not on reflection do other than withdraw it, accept the reality of reform, and applaud the process that is in place.

Seán Conlan (Cavan-Monaghan, Fine Gael)
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I welcome the debate generated by Deputy Ross’s Bill. I also congratulate Deputy Fitzgerald on her new appointment as Minister for Justice and Equality. She has a track record of reform in her time as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs.

The Government has already commissioned the Fennelly, Guerin and Cooke reports. It has agreed to set up a commission of inquiry into the serious allegations made thus far and to establish a new independent Garda authority. The Government has stated that the new Commissioner will be appointed by way of open competition. Regardless of how the Commissioner is appointed, mistakes will be inevitable. The new Commissioner will be human. The problems of recent years arose through systems failure because of poor training, lack of facilities and lack of protocols, not how the Commissioner is appointed.

I take issue with several aspects of the Bill. It purports to be concerned with the appointment of senior members of An Garda Síochána and the Garda Commissioner, but it extends its reach to all areas of the public service. That is not a problem but there must be an holistic approach to how it is done and we need to consider that seriously. The Bill creates the risk of politicising rather than de-politicising the appointment of the Commissioner by bringing it to the Dáil for a vote. That is how the public will see it. There is also the risk that very few will want to put their names forward to be humiliated in public if the Dáil does not approve the appointment.

It is important to take time to consider how best to move forward. I welcome the process that will start on Friday. The public, the Garda and people who have made allegations will be well served by an authority that has everybody’s confidence. I welcome this debate but it is premature. We need time to make sure the new Garda authority is a success and has public approval.

Marcella Corcoran Kennedy (Laois-Offaly, Fine Gael)
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I am glad of the opportunity to speak on this important matter even though I do not agree with the process of recruitment that Deputy Ross proposes in this Bill. It is true that An Garda Síochána has been subject to close scrutiny over the past few months, and rightly so. No section of society is above scrutiny but I believe that much of the discussion has been reckless and there have been attempts to paint a picture of our police service as corrupt in its totality. I reject this viewpoint and use the phrase "police service" deliberately because An Garda Síochána provides an absolutely necessary service to our society, working in an unarmed capacity to ensure the rest of us can go about our daily lives without much concern for policing matters. If we have not had direct contact with An Garda Síochána personally we certainly have heard anecdotally of the kindness, compassion and professionalism with which people have been treated by members of the service, whether at the scene of a serious crime, traffic accident or even petty thieving.

Such is human nature that there are criminal elements in our society who have little or no regard for human life much less the lives of An Garda Síochána. It is important we never forget those who lost their lives in the line of duty over the years and indeed the many innocent victims of gun crime with which we are all too familiar.

The majority of the members of An Garda Síochána are decent hardworking men and women, many with families. They head out to work each day not knowing who or what they will encounter in the course of their day's work. Having read the Bill and heard Deputy Ross's contribution last night, I am at a loss to understand why he believes this Bill will have any impact on the many and necessary changes needed in policing in this country. He is surely aware of the measures taken by this Government to deal with legacy issues, for example, the Guerin and Cooke reports, the establishment of the Fennelly commission of investigation, the external independent review of the workings of the Department of Justice and Equality, all of which will inform decision-making on improving the policing and justice system in this country. He claims that his Bill will place senior Garda appointments at arm's length from the political system while at the same time it proposes placing the decision on the appointment of the Garda Commissioner right at the heart of the political system, here in Dáil Éireann.

How would this work in practice? If the Dáil decided not to accept the recommendation of the appointments board that he proposes, how would this affect the career of the rejected candidate? It might work against getting the best person for the job. Who would risk the possibility of such public humiliation? He seems to be claiming that the current system of senior Garda appointments is the cause of difficulties within the system. I do not see the evidence for this. The Minister has already committed to a public recruitment process to fill the Garda Commissioner vacancy and the Government has committed to the establishment of an independent Garda authority this year.

I welcome the consultation process which is taking place, including the event arranged by the Minister this Friday at Farmleigh. As a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, I participated in the recent hearings on Garda oversight. I also visited Northern Ireland and Scotland with fellow members of the committee last week, where we saw at first hand how the police authorities work in both jurisdictions. Each police service is unique and so are their oversight bodies. Their responsibilities include setting the budget for the police service, deciding on police numbers, continuous improvement of the service and the appointment of senior officers. They also ensure communities are consulted as part of their policing plan and are an integral part of it to provide for personal, professional and protective policing. We have much to consider and our report will be ready for the Minister within weeks.

A fair analysis of the range of actions taken by the Government to date will reveal that it is pursuing a comprehensive programme of reform. I do not believe that Deputy Ross's Bill will add any value to the work taking place and I will not support it.

Patrick O'Donovan (Limerick, Fine Gael)
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It should not go unnoticed that we are speaking on this Private Member's Bill on a day when the Minister for Justice and Equality moved a motion in the House on offences against the State. The irony cannot be lost on anybody. I was very disappointed to see Opposition Members putting that motion to a vote today given that unarmed members of An Garda Síochána have laid down their lives to protect citizens of this State. I think tonight of the men from County Limerick whose lives were ended by people whose sole motive was to subvert the institutions of the State and overthrow it. For Opposition Members to then expound on the merits of An Garda Síochána stinks of hypocrisy.

An Garda Síochána has been through a very difficult patch. For an Opposition Member to bring forward such an ill-thought-out Bill when the Minister for Justice and Equality has announced there will be consultation, engagement and dialogue within the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality shows an ambition to grab a headline and scant regard for what the Bill hopes to achieve, the de-politicisation of the appointment of senior Garda officers. While people could argue there is a political element in the current appointment process, this Bill proposes a political process by throwing it open to this House to kick a person, and his or her personality and family, around. I do not know if any thought went into this Bill but nobody could stand over it and say it is what people want, given that an independent Garda authority is to be established.

Our recent experiences with policing on this island should have taught us not to go down the knee-jerk road when we are making policing changes. This legislation has knee-jerk written all over it, however. The atmosphere and environment in which this ill-thought-out and rushed Bill has been introduced is not conducive to having a proper Second Stage debate.

The Minister for Justice and Equality made quite a positive contribution last night. She hopes to achieve some positive things from the initiatives she has already advanced in the short period of time for which she has been in office. In fairness to the Minister, she deserves time. If this legislation is passed - neither I nor the Government will support it - it will not give the Minister the time to introduce the real reforms that are wanted by people inside and outside the House. This badly crafted Bill does exactly what it does not say on the tin, in terms of Ronseal. I do not support it. In fairness to the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, she needs to be given time to allow the programme of reform she has initiated to run its course and to bring a properly structured Garda authority Bill before the House. I hope the people who have put their names to this Bill will support that initiative when it is introduced by the Government.

Tony McLoughlin (Sligo-North Leitrim, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Ross has pointed out that 200 top posts in the Garda are decided on by the Minister for Justice and Equality. This includes the appointment of the Garda Commissioner, one deputy commissioner, eight assistant commissioners, 43 chief superintendents and 147 superintendents. The reality is that the Government acts on the advice of the Garda Commissioner when appointments are made to senior posts within the Garda. Deputy Ross is proposing that appointments at top level in various parts of the public service, including the Garda Síochána in the cases of the Garda Commissioner, the deputy commissioners and the assistant commissioners, should be made following an open competition conducted by the top level appointments committee. It is clear that the process set out in the Bill before the House has the potential to discourage suitably qualified candidates from applying, given the risk of a very public rejection. It could result in a long appointment process delaying key appointments, which is particularly inadvisable when it comes to policing in this country.

It is fair to commend the Government on initiating an independent expert review of the performance, management and administration of the Department of Justice and Equality. This review is to report in July. It is worth noting that amendments to the Protected Disclosures Bill 2013 will be enacted to enable Garda whistleblowers to report their concerns to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. I do not doubt that the House will welcome new legislation to strengthen the powers and the remit of the ombudsman commission. I welcome the Government's announcement, which was made prior to the publication of this Bill, that it intends to select and appoint the new Garda Commissioner by way of open competition. This will give the Garda a new opportunity to move forward from the top down. The Minister has announced plans to put a new independent Garda authority in place by the end of this year. The important reforms that have been proposed provide for the complete redesign of many aspects of the running of the Garda. Deputies of all parties and none should make a significant contribution to the debate on this protected disclosures legislation when it comes before the House, especially on Committee Stage. I have no doubt that this will happen. This process will provide for the much more comprehensive reform that is required.

Many Members of this House have close family connections with the Garda. In many cases, family relations were or are members of the force at all levels. While it was disappointing to learn about some of the failings that have been noted and publicised in recent months, the fact remains that the Garda from the top down has given generally great service to the people of this country for more than 90 years. However, change is needed. I commend the Minister on the speech she delivered in this Chamber last evening. She has promised to bring forward the necessary legislative proposals to enable the Garda authority to be in place by the end of the year. In my view, this is the most important step to be taken before we consider the proposals set out in this premature Bill.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, United Left)
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I would like to share time with Deputies Thomas Pringle and Catherine Murphy.

Derek Keating (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Is that agreed? Agreed.

Joan Collins (Dublin South Central, United Left)
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The promised inquiry into the issues regarding the Garda Síochána that have been raised over the last year will be the third such inquiry in ten years. Questions need to be asked about the Morris and Smithwick inquiries, which investigated very serious allegations and identified very serious problems. Did anything change following those inquiries? The Morris tribunal found evidence of extremely serious malpractice in Donegal. The half-hearted measures provided for in the Garda Síochána Act 2005 achieved nothing. As I have said previously, the Morris tribunal went halfway and did not go any further. I think there were political reasons for that. The reality of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission is that it dismisses 90% of complaints for all sorts of reasons. It is extremely difficult to get the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission to take claims seriously. When it carries out investigations, it gets gardaí to investigate gardaí. On the rare occasions when disciplinary action against senior gardaí has been recommended, that has been ignored. Recommendations to the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions are usually rejected. The Smithwick report was compiled following an investigation into the serious issue of whether gardaí were involved in collusion in the murder of two RUC officers. It did not establish that this had happened, but it uncovered a culture where defending the force comes before telling the truth. This finding was dismissed out of hand by the then Garda Commissioner, Mr. Callinan, who has since departed that role. No action was taken by the Government. The Smithwick tribunal might as well never have happened. In light of this history, we are right to be sceptical about the possibility of real and effective change taking place, despite what might be found by the promised inquiry.

I would like to respond to what Deputy Mulherin had to say. We would not have come to where we are if Opposition Deputies had not grabbed these issues - the concerns of the whistleblowers and the injustices being suffered by people all over the country - and doggedly brought them to the fore. If some eggs have to be broken to ensure a proper and transparent system is put in place, everybody should support that. Such a development would be supported by every member of the Garda force. Equally, the citizens of this country are supportive of increasing transparency and bringing about real and effective change. Like everybody else in the Opposition, the Deputies in the Technical Group will watch and scrutinise every aspect of this slow process. Will the culture of defending our own - of seeing and hearing no evil - be rooted out? I refer to the culture at the top of the Garda, whereby senior gardaí regard any criticism as outrageous, find the actions of whistleblowers "disgusting" and consider the gentle probings of a toothless body like the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission to be such a threat that they may have bugged its activities. Deputy Clare Daly and other Deputies have made a point about the lawful and unlawful aspects of this matter and suggested that the terms of the actual investigation need to be questioned. Change will not come about unless a decision is made to depoliticise the management of the Garda Síochána. This means taking the appointment of senior gardaí out of the hands of the Government, establishing bodies that can conduct a genuinely independent oversight of the force and giving real powers to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission.

I would like to conclude by referring to the serious issue of the policing of the Corrib gas protest. This is a real example of an issue of political policing - policing that is not impartial and is not based on the consent of the local community or the common good. The policing policy in this instance was based on the needs of a multinational. It was carried out in co-operation with Shell management and private security firms employed by Shell and was authorised by the State. When the Taoiseach dismissed the issues raised by Deputy Clare Daly as coming from the "usual suspects" - troublemakers from outside the area, etc. - he was adopting the very same dismissive attitude that has been exhibited with regard to the various issues that have been raised over the last year. His attitude does not fill me with any confidence that anything has been really learned or that there is any intention to address the fact that serious complaints about policing are just not taken seriously. The Taoiseach can dismiss the so-called "usual suspects" if he wants to, but I remind the House that in so doing he is dismissing Bishop Desmond Tutu, who might know a thing or two about political policing, and the UN Special Rapporteur on Human Rights Defenders, who recommended after visiting Ireland in 2012 that the policing of the Corrib project should be reviewed. The Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, which as usual dismissed most of the claims against the Corrib gardaí, found that a superintendent was in breach of discipline at Pollathomas in 2007. This was not acted on by the then Garda Commissioner. In 2008, the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission sought permission from the then Minister to carry out a practice, policy and procedure review of the policing of the Corrib protest.

That this request was denied tells us everything we need to know about the commission's capacity to function independently. We have heard a whole range of allegations regarding the Corrib protest, from brutality to wrongful arrests and detention, the rape tape controversy, and the allegation, which is being investigated by senior gardaí, that large quantities of alcohol were delivered to Garda stations by Shell contractor, OSSL. If the issue of the Corrib gas protests is not included in the upcoming inquiry, it raises very serious questions about the commitment to have a wide-ranging serious inquiry and take decisive action on foot of it.

Everybody in this House should welcome efforts by colleagues to bring forward positive ideas and proposals on important issues. It is not good enough for people to talk about "having" to listen to somebody in this Chamber. I listened with interest to the Minister, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, last night and took note of what she said. I did so not because I had to but because I wanted to, just as I would listen to any speaker in this House. Members on both sides of the House should avoid getting on their hobby horses when discussing these issues.

Thomas Pringle (Donegal South West, Independent)
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I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Bill. The legislation sets out to depoliticise the appointment of senior Garda officers by disconnecting that process from the political system. In preparing for this debate, I was reminded of a very well known GP in south-west Donegal who is sadly deceased. This person was a very respected doctor who helped many people in the area. He also was an avid Fianna Fáil supporter who sought election for that party at local government level on numerous occasions. I recall an interview with him on local radio some years ago in the course of which he bemoaned how Fianna Fáil had lost its way and how, at one time, a person could have relied on the local postman, council worker, Bus Éireann driver, county council official and garda all being Fianna Fáil people. That was the extent of political patronage at play in our society and which may still, to a certain extent, persist to this day.

I welcome the fact that my local postman and local council workers are no longer Fianna Fáil people. By the same token, I do not wish them to be Fine Gael or Labour Party people either, or supporters of Independent representatives. I want them to have been appointed to their job because they proved at interview to be the best candidate. The type of political patronage that was so apparent in the past represented everything that was wrong with our society and within the Garda. Sadly, the only difference between Fine Gael, the Labour Party and Fianna Fáil is that the two current parties of government did not get a chance to indulge in such patronage as often as their rival did. Indeed, much of the time, Fine Gael aspired to be just as good as Fianna Fáil at what the latter did best, which was to win and hold power.

This Bill sets out an independent process for the appointment of senior members of the Garda, which is welcome. Deputy Shane Ross has outlined, as he envisages it, a very simple structure which will ensure people are appointed on merit. Nobody could object to that objective. Senior Garda positions would be advertised by a board comprising three members from the Standards in Public Office Commission plus two additional members. This board would then report to the Dáil with a candidate recommendation. There is nothing to object to in that proposal. However, some Members on the other side of the House spoke positively about Deputy Ross's attempt to depoliticise the appointments process while in the same breath arguing that having the candidate approved by the Dáil is merely a different form of politicisation. I do not accept that argument. The political process that takes place under the current system is conducted behind closed doors. It is a secretive process which involves people ingratiating themselves with their political masters and their masters in the Department of Justice and Equality. It is a process of benefiting through promotions with a view to arriving ultimately at the position of Commissioner.

On the other hand, if such appointments come before the Dáil, it would require politicians to stand up in pubic and cast their vote on whether or not the proposed candidate should get the job. If the candidate is not of the right political colour, Members might chose to vote against the appointment, but they must be ready to have their decision scrutinised. This would effectively depoliticise the process and make it open and transparent by allowing people to see why decisions are made. I was shocked when Deputy Ross mentioned some weeks ago that approximately 200 senior Garda appointments are made by way of the political process. The entire culture within the Garda is connected with politics and political patronage. This is wrong and does a disservice to the Garda, the citizens of this State and anybody who has dealings with the force for whatever purpose. The system must change.

I was disappointed that the Minister made only one reference in her contribution last night to the appointment of a Garda Commissioner. She did not explain how she envisages senior appointments being made in the future under the new legislation she is bringing forward. She might offer the excuse that she is currently involved in a consultation process and does not want to pre-empt its outcome, but she should have some views and be able to express those views to the House. Even a simple statement to the effect that all senior Garda appointments will be made in an independent and impartial way would have offered an assurance that this matter will be dealt with in the legislation that is due before the end of the year to establish the new Garda authority. It would offer assurance of her commitment to doing away with the system of political patronage. Unfortunately, although the Minister outlined many of the measures she intends to take under the law reform programme she has initiated, she was silent on this point. Having noted that silence, I do nevertheless expect that she will attempt to make the necessary changes. I hope she will, in so doing, resist the kick-back that is bound to come from those interests which see the benefit in the current system, including her Department and senior gardaí themselves, and bring through the changes that are required to make the system fair, accountable and transparent. Members on this side of the House certainly will support her if we see this is actually what she is trying to achieve.

I welcome the indication from the Minister that she has embarked on a consultation process on this issue, which includes an invitation to the Justice4all group to address the event in Farmleigh this Friday. It is a progressive and welcome move. The members of Justice4all must be listened to and action must be taken for the many families throughout the country that have suffered, often in already tragic circumstances, as a consequence of maladministration, malpractice and, in some cases, illegal practices within our justice system. Their demands must be heard and met. If that requires a wide-ranging commission of investigation to hear their stories and come back with recommendations, it will, although it will take time, be a very worthwhile and necessary process. It is about righting wrongs and affording the type of healing and closure to families which may help them to move on from what was done to them.

Any wide-ranging reform of the Garda should address the situation whereby our police force is also our security service. The Garda is supposed to be a democratically accountable policing service for the citizens of the State, but it is also operating in security circles. It is another element of that culture which is about closing ranks and not allowing certain things to emerge in case of exposure as to what is being done, who is being monitored and so on.

We could have a security service attached to the Army, which already has a security service, or we could have an independent security service, if that is so vitally important. However, it needs to be separated from the Garda which would go a long way towards ensuring the Garda could be more accountable. Ridiculous things are put down to State security, such as how much it costs to run the Commissioner's office each year. We cannot be given that information because it is a State security issue. That is just nonsensical. The Commissioner's office should be accountable and the cost of running it should be known by everyone. However, while we have a State security apparatus tied in with the Garda, this will allow the culture that has prevailed in the Garda to continue.

The Minister has much work to do and this Bill could contribute to the process. If the Minister would indicate that all the appointments mentioned in this Bill would be made as part of an open and transparent process under the new Garda authority, it may go some way towards satisfying the requirement for this Bill. We need to end the culture of political patronage wherever it takes place, whether in the Garda, the councils, An Post or in State services.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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I welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. In principle, I absolutely believe we need to separate politics from the appointment of the Garda Commissioner. I think a Member on the Government side outlined the fact there were 200 appointments, of which I was aware, but he said that of those 200, one pretty much takes the Garda Commissioner's list. That is all the more reason that separation should happen at that level. It should be a force or a service with people ending up in senior positions based on merit.

I was a little bit surprised by the tone of the contributions and by the similarity of some of them, which was striking. It almost seemed as if a press office document was issued and they were working from it. That is a pity because even if we disagree on what is in legislation, the spirit of debate should be better than that. One of the things we were told to avoid was group-think.

There is no doubt that Ireland has one of the most powerful Executive's in the democratic world when one examines the balance of power between the Parliament and the Executive, and that plays a part in this particular issue. Since our Constitution was decided on by the citizens, the Executive has had that grip which has tightened, if anything. This is one of the most heavily whipped Parliaments in the developed world. There is a core of 15 Ministers who wield extraordinary power and very often the feeling is that most of what happens in the Parliament is merely a rubber-stamping exercise, especially as the Government has such a large majority. Ministers of State have influence rather than power.

We must have proper checks and balances. The Executive has become the property of political parties and in public life those who display loyalty to a particular party get a reward. It does not have to be like that but that forms a part of this. I would like to see very significant Oireachtas reform where there is a break between the Executive and the Parliament. That is needed as part of what is suggested in this Bill, otherwise that rubber-stamping and majoritarianism will continue. The culture here must change. It must also change in the context of how the Garda Commissioner is to be appointed.

The appointment of senior gardaí is an area that needs to be re-examined. The link between Government and Garda Commissioner has been exposed as being fundamentally unhealthy. It was just unhealthy for the Garda Commissioner but it was also unhealthy for politics and for the Minister. The kind of information given to the Commissioner that was misused by the Minister on the airwaves demonstrated that.

In regard to reform, I was very interested in one of the papers given to the Constitutional Convention in regard to the reform of Westminster. A committee, for example, would have a function in scrutinising the Deputy Commissioner. However, we know the way our committees are formed. What was done in Westminster seemed to change the culture of the way its committee system worked. It seems to function quite well and it has been established since the late 1970s. They are genuinely committees of the Parliament and the chair is selected by secret ballot in each instance, which seems to give the chairs of those committees enhanced power by virtue of the fact it has changed the culture. There was a value in that for both the Government and opposition. That cultural shift is important and is needed before the change proposed here would be really effective.

The Guerin report stated that discipline was important. Discipline was not defined as just loyalty to the senior ranks in a very hierarchical organisation but was discipline in regard to the work at hand. Something fairly serious in my area, which I have been raising for some time, is the way gardaí are deployed. They are deployed in a very unfair way and there is no rationale as to the numbers in a given area. There are comparable areas where there are huge differences. How can we have that discipline if we cannot even make that change? It suited Governments, not necessarily this Government, that there were not big shifts in personnel because it might cause a problem for a particular constituency. That is part of the reason gardaí are deployed the way they are. That is an issue which needs to be addressed because it is one of discipline in the fullest meaning of the word.

I am very open-minded about the changes which will take place and I am certainly listening to what the Minister is saying. She is coming at this with a fresh pair of eyes.

What disappointed me following the election was that in spite of what was talked about in terms of the radical change that was going to happen, we only got fairly superficial change. I urge the Minister to go the whole hog with some of the initiatives she intends to take and not to row back and accept something that is less than the ideal. I support the principle of separating the roles, changing who appoints the Garda Commissioner and ensuring promotion is based on merit. I see no reason for the Bill not to be included in the mix of changes that will eventually deliver a better service and restore confidence in a service that requires a cultural shift. That could be helped by changing the culture at the top, because without doing so, people in the lower ranks will not have a chance to excel and to make the kind of changes within the force that it deserves and the citizens of the country deserve.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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I welcome the debate that has taken place in this House, to which I have listened, on the Public Sector Management (Appointment of Senior Members of the Garda Síochána) Bill 2014 introduced by Deputy Ross. It will come as no surprise to the Deputy to hear the Government is opposing the Bill.

As the House is aware, a comprehensive reform programme is being put in place that will restore public confidence in the work of the Garda Síochána and fully support the men and women of the police force who contribute daily to preserving law and order and protecting the security of the State. In the debate last night several Members quite rightly acknowledged the important contribution made by the Garda Síochána to society. Members also acknowledged the need for change. The Government has responded to the issues raised in the various recent reports by initiating a comprehensive programme of reform which includes the establishment of an independent Garda authority. That will change both culture and attitude. There will be an opportunity to discuss the issue with other stakeholders at the consultation event the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, has convened in Farmleigh on Friday. The event promises some interesting discussions on reform of the justice system.

Those are important matters and not lightly decided. In that context and as a priority, work is under way in the Department of Justice and Equality on drafting the legislation for the new independent police authority. Part of the debate will be around the issue of the selection and appointment of candidates to senior Garda positions. The Bill proposed by Deputy Ross deals with the single issue of setting up structures which are mainly intended for appointments to senior positions in the Garda Síochána. His stand-alone proposal does not take account of the wider reform agenda that is under way. In particular, it ignores the setting up of the proposed independent Garda authority and its potential role in the process of appointing the most senior members of the Garda Síochána. In fact, the Bill, if enacted, would take away any opportunity for the authority to assume such a role in the short term.

It is vitally important that individual reforms, such as the way in which senior officers are appointed, are designed to fit properly with other elements of the comprehensive reform programme and not brought forward in a piecemeal manner. In addition to not taking account of the planned establishment of a new Garda authority, Deputy Ross seeks to pre-empt the outcome of extensive consultations under way, including but not limited to the extensive hearings and study trips being undertaken by the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality, and the planned stakeholder consultation event, to which I alluded, that will take place this Friday in Farmleigh.

The Bill also puts the Dáil centre stage in relation to the appointment of the Garda Commissioner. It introduces a lengthy process for the appointment and, in fact, politicises the process. The Bill also has the potential to deter suitable candidates. The Government has indicated that an open competition will be held for the next appointment to the post of Garda Commissioner. The Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, informed me that preparations will begin in July with the intention of making an appointment before the year end.

I wish to restate the Government's opposition to the Bill. It is untimely and inappropriate in the context of legislation which the Department of Justice and Equality is bringing forward as a matter of urgency to establish a new independent Garda authority. The Bill tries to pre-empt decisions on the important job of making appointments to senior positions in the Garda Síochána and therefore cannot be supported by the Government. The Government will not support a proposal which is premature and being put forward in isolation to other vital reforms.

I have listened to many of the contributions both tonight and last night, and the one thing that strikes me about all of them is that we are all determined that the politicisation of the Garda is brought to an end and that we have an independent Garda authority that ensures better management, as Deputy Catherine Murphy rightly said, of both the personnel and the skills available. The Garda authority is the place for that to happen. I do not accuse Deputy Ross of anything other than wishing to be helpful but his Bill on its own as a single entity will not give us the type of reform we all seek. We should wait and ensure the reform of the Garda Síochána is comprehensive, as Deputy Catherine Murphy rightly said, is far reaching and is the best that we can have.

John Halligan (Waterford, Independent)
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I commend Deputy Ross on introducing the Bill. I and others find it pitiful that it has taken a member of the Opposition to do so while the Government continues to stick its head in the sand on this issue. That is my estimation from listening to some of tonight’s contributions.

In recent weeks, the world's media has looked on in disbelief as the scandal of the mother and baby homes was allowed to go uncommented on and unchecked by the Government of the day. I have no doubt future generations will gape at the complete and ongoing lack of transparency in the justice system throughout a series of scandals that one would expect to find in South America or the Middle East. The most recent accusations which have come into the public domain concerning the practices of senior, Government-appointed members of An Garda Síochána, such as the whistleblower controversy and the alleged bugging of the office of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, have all demonstrated the unhealthy relationship between the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Garda Commissioner. At the very least, this relationship cannot be deemed best practice. At worst, it is a situation one might see in a banana republic: a system wide open to cronyism and corruption. Contrary to what the Minister said, the reforms proposed in the Bill are long overdue.

Many of us were shocked to hear that the top 200 positions in the Garda Síochána are filled by political or Government appointment, a practice which is open to enormous abuse. The Garda Representative Association itself has been highly critical of the practice. I am loth to imagine the number of highly skilled gardaí who have been passed over for promotion in the past because they did not have the right political or social connections. The effect of that on Garda morale must be truly gutting.

The Garda Representative Association has made representations to Government for a police authority since 1979, to no avail. Surely rank and file gardaí, those at the coalface of the justice system, are better placed than any politician to point out where accountability is most needed. Whether nepotism and political interference are at play, the suspicion always exists and that has a detrimental effect on the good name of the force as a whole.

A recent Millward Brown poll reflected the huge dent which policing scandals have made in the reputation of An Garda Síochána, with 57% of people saying their confidence in the Garda has been damaged as a result. The poll found that seven in ten people believe responsibility for all senior appointments and promotions in the force, including that of Commissioner, should be removed from the Department of Justice and Equality.

An overwhelming 87% believe garda management should be independent of politics. Morale in the force is at an all-time low. The reforms proposed in this Bill, based on the co-principles of open competition and independence, would go a long way towards improving this. Structures, training and forms of accountability all need to be redesigned from scratch with the Garda body stripped of prejudice and its members there to defend hard-won democratic freedoms. Denis Bradley, a former vice-chairman of the Northern Ireland policing board, stated:

In most modern societies and democracies something was always placed between the justice Department and the police service to ensure a certain distance and involve as much of society as possible. What we mainly end up is some form of policing authority which is made up of people from different political parties, plus independently minded people, so one has a greater roundness and oversight is not placed in the hands of any one Minister or any one political party.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I thank all Members who contributed to Second Stage of this Bill, particularly my colleagues on these benches. I thank the Sinn Féin Members for their support in principle for this Bill. They wish that it would proceed to Committee Stage and, like every other Member, that there would be an independent Garda authority with teeth and credibility which would guide the future of the Garda Síochána not just in its operations, but its appointments. That is my wish too - certainly, partially.

My problem, however, is that I am not sure that any independent authority in this State is ever independent. I have never trusted any Government that I have known not to stuff so-called independent bodies with its own nominees who then control appointments to and the operation of these vital bodies. I have listed them over the years. For example, the Central Bank, a highly sensitive body, has had on its board political nominees whose loyalty is to a political party, not to the State. NAMA, the National Asset Management Agency, another sensitive body, is stuffed from time to time - I accept not all the time - with people who have identifiable political affiliations. There are the examples of a body as sensitive as the Garda Síochána and the courts of this land where every single appointment is political and where people of both the major parties, and of the Labour Party, have behaved with absolutely shameless powers of patronage.

I agree we need to form an independent Garda authority. However, the main political parties will degrade, dilute and discredit the system of appointments established for other so-called independent bodies. I do not doubt for one moment the integrity or the intentions of the Minister for Justice and Equality in this matter. I know her to be a person of immense ability, dedication and honesty. The record of others in her party and her coalition partners, however, is shameless. We cannot give her a blank cheque with the so-called independent Garda authority because of the record of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and Labour on this issue. We cannot be too starry-eyed about it, saying there is a Holy Grail there and everything will be all right. The record of the main political parties does not justify the sort of optimism about an independent Garda authority which I have heard here this evening from Members opposite.

Having said that, I thank the Minister for her reply. It was constructive and I understand her intentions. While I do not agree with her, there are many in the Fine Gael and Labour parties who genuinely wish to see a solution to this appalling problem which has burst out like a boil in recent times. It is wrong to say this Bill is premature. In fact, it is 90 years too late. While it was not drafted in a hurry, I am in a hurry. We should be in a hurry because what has happened in the past few months is a shame on all of us and a terrible reflection on what has happened in the Garda, the Department of Justice and Equality and elsewhere in politics, as well as the relationship between them.

Neither is it good enough to claim we are going to have an open competition for the post of Garda Commissioner. The former Commissioner resigned nearly three months ago. What the hell has been going on since? This morning, I received an e-mail from the Department - belatedly because they knew I needed it last night - which stated: "I refer to your e-mail requesting the information on the process being followed to select the new Garda Commissioner. The Government has announced there will be an open competition for the appointment of the post of Garda Commissioner. It is intended that preparations for the competition will begin in July with the appointment being made towards the end of the year." There is no sense of urgency there at all and neither is there any information about how this is going to be done. I cannot see why a new Garda Commissioner, a key office of this State, has not been appointed yet or the process of selecting one has even started.

There is no good reason for the delays in the reforms in question. I understand the Minister’s need to move carefully because she is new in the office. I understand the horrific mess she has inherited. I do not trust, however, the kind of litany of reviews, commissions, investigations, comprehensive programmes and consultations that she is planning. Are we really to believe that there is no one who can put a good process in place and accept a Bill like this which will at least allow us to select a new Garda Commissioner on an independent basis? This Bill could dovetail with a new independent Garda authority, if necessary.

The knee-jerk reaction to reject it is unfortunate. The Minister could have said, as Sinn Féin did, “Yes, there are good provisions in this Bill which we will accept as it may fit into the process which we planned, which is vague, or it may not”. I reject the absurd criticisms that this is politicising the process. That is a cheap and nonsensical response. What has been happening for many years, as Deputy Pringle said, has been a secretive, behind-closed-doors, non-independent process.

To state the introduction of a new system whereby the Top Level Appointments Committee would conduct interviews to select three people to be sent to the public appointments board which would then select one of these candidates to go before the Dáil would politicise the process is absolute and obvious nonsense. The final candidate would be brought to the House so Members of this House and perhaps the other House could ask questions so the public could see the person selected is worthy and the process is transparent. As Deputy Pringle stated, it would quite rightly allow Members to pin their colours to the mast. There would be no more secretive behind closed doors Ministers selecting pals who select other pals to do other things. If it were done here it would be done before the people, and the people would see what is happening and could give a verdict on whether the process was worthy or not. It could then go to a Dáil committee. I see nothing wrong with this democratic and transparent process. It is absurd for Deputy Mulherin to state this would be a character assassination. This would not happen. People would be pushed to answer questions in public, which is absolutely right with regard to people who have key appointments of this type.

I am sorry Deputy Niall Collins is not here. We have seen only one member of Fianna Fáil arrive in the Chamber in the past two minutes, so I do not wish to thank Fianna Fáil for its contribution to the Bill because it has not contributed much.

Kathleen Lynch (Cork North Central, Labour)
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Character assassination.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Its members have been away for an hour and a half and they did not bother to come in. Their concern for the future of the Judiciary is not very touching.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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The time is up, I am sorry.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Deputy Niall Collins stated several things which were so irresponsible and wrong that they should be corrected.

Seán Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, Ceann Comhairle)
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We are over time.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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Let me correct this one. He stated the Bill would create a new quango. It would not create anything. No new body would be created. This is a costless exercise. It simply uses the resources of the State as they exist. I suggest to Deputy Collins that if he wants to come here and speak on a Bill in future, and if I had time I could list other statements he made, he had better read the Bill. The least he can do for the House is read the Bill. He could also send in one of his cohorts to Bills of this type because he is the spokesperson on justice.