Dáil debates

Thursday, 27 February 2014

Ceisteanna - Questions - Priority Questions

Commissions of Investigation

10:00 am

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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5. To ask the Minister for Justice and Equality his views on the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004 as a basis for independent inquiries into matters of significant public concern. [9947/14]

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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As I said yesterday, there are few people who would have as detailed an understanding of legislation as the Minister, so for the life of me I cannot understand why the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004, which the Minister probably knows line for line, was not deployed in regard to the allegations of the GSOC offices being bugged and the serious matters that have come into the public domain. Will the Minister outline his views on that legislation? Is it now redundant because if this is not a matter of public concern, I do not know what is.

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The Commissions of Investigation Act 2004 provides for the establishment of commissions to investigate into and report on matters considered to be of significant public concern. Section 3 provides that, following a proposal by a Minister, with the approval of the Minister of Public Expenditure and Reform, the Government may, by order establish a commission. The draft order establishing a commission of investigation is the subject of a resolution of the Houses of the Oireachtas.

The Act has been used to inquire into a range of matters across Government, including, for example, the Leas Cross nursing home and the banking sector. In regard to my Department, commissions of investigation were established to inquire into the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, the Dean Lyons case, the Catholic Archdiocese of Dublin and the Diocese of Cloyne and the death in custody of Garry Douch. The reports of these commissions are available on my Department's website with the exception of the report into the Garry Douch investigation which has only recently been submitted to me. The above reports attest to the important role of commissions of investigation to effectively inquire into matters of public concern.

It is often appropriate, however, to first establish as many facts as possible before taking the step to establish a commission of investigation. The starting point is to conduct a review of events and documentation to ascertain, to the greatest extent possible, the factual position. The outcome of such a review can be helpful in clarifying the need for an inquiry or the matters which are to be the subject of the inquiry.

The Deputy has undoubtedly framed this question with reference to the recent media report of unlawful surveillance of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission and allegations concerning certain Garda investigations. As the Deputy is aware, the Government has appointed retired High Court Judge John Cooke to conduct an independent inquiry into the GSOC matter and to report within eight weeks, the terms of reference of which are in the public domain. The Government has also appointed Mr. Sean Guerin, SC, to examine allegations by Sergeant Maurice McCabe of Garda misconduct and to report back to the Government before Easter. Mr. Guerin will have the power to recommend a commission of investigation, if he believes one is needed. I consider it would be premature to establish a commission of investigation into these matters prior to consideration of the external report in each case. The procedure which has been adopted replicates that adopted on previous occasions prior to the appointment of a commission of inquiry.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The issues in regard to the alleged bugging of the GSOC offices are very clear. They have been gone through line by line and every decent journalist in the State has reported on and analysed them. The Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions has spent hours dealing with the issues. The allegations and the issues of concern are very clear.

Why did the Minister not deploy the Commissions of Investigation Act 2004 and give a person or persons the ability to compel witnesses, compel all the relevant documentation and make findings of fact? Why was that not agreed to? What is the reason for the delay in doing that? The concern is that the delay reflects a concern in Government not to get to all of the facts of this matter which is reflected by the very poor response of Government when these allegations emerged and in the ten days which followed them in the Chamber and elsewhere.

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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The great difficulty with all of this is that rather than deal with this on the basis of the facts, the facts of the background to this matter which I set out at the committee, and the issues of concern and of difference, this is all simply becoming a political football. Most people outside this House would regard it as entirely reasonable that all of these matters in regard to GSOC are considered and reviewed by an independent retired member of the High Court whose integrity is beyond reproach. I expect all parties will co-operate with the work Mr. Justice Cooke will do and that all the papers and documents he requires will be made available to him and that if needs to meet or interview individuals, they will co-operate. If it emerges that is not the case, then we may have to reconsider the matter but I expect that co-operation.

I think it is a proportionate and reasonable response with a view to getting greater clarity on this matter within a shorter period of time than would otherwise be the case in the context of a statutory inquiry and at a good deal less cost than would otherwise be the case. Should something arise out of Mr. Justice Cooke's report that means this matter may need to be revisited differently, so be it. My only interest is that we know the truth of all of these issues surrounding the concerns that arose in regard to GSOC.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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The Government's first position was that we did not need an independent inquiry because the Joint Committee on Public Service Oversight and Petitions was dealing with it but it cannot make findings of adverse fact, so it was never going to be satisfactory in terms of a resolution to this issue.

The Minister's second position is to go with the half-baked review under Mr. Justice John Cooke.

Let us be very clear about the issues. The Minister talks about a political football. This issue has been in the political domain for three weeks and citizens would like it out of that domain. The best way to take this issue out of the political domain is to have a genuinely independent inquiry under the Commissions of Investigation Act which, I repeat, has the power to compel witnesses and all the documentation from the Garda Síochána, the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, the Department of Justice and Equality, Rits, Verrimus, the journalist John Mooney and whoever else, and finally make findings of fact. Why has the Minister not deployed that legislation and taken this issue out of the political arena by giving it to persons with the necessary expertise to deal with it properly?

10:10 am

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I have already explained that. It is unfortunate that a very important job undertaken by a retired High Court judge under very specific and detailed terms of reference should be described as a "half-baked review". It is unfortunate that the Deputy should insult the retired judge by suggesting he would participate in a half-baked review.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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I insulted the procedure, not the judge.

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I suggest Deputy Mac Lochlainn withdraw that allegation and show some respect for an individual who served with honour in both the European Court and in our High Court, whose integrity is beyond reproach and who has agreed to undertake this work.

Photo of Pádraig Mac LochlainnPádraig Mac Lochlainn (Donegal North East, Sinn Fein)
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Will the Minister answer the question put to him? It would be good to get an answer.

Photo of Alan ShatterAlan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Mac Lochlainn has just made the accusation that this has gone on for three weeks. It could go on for three, four, five or six weeks, depending on how long Deputies Mac Lochlainn and Niall Collins, Sinn Féin or Fianna Fáil see it as a political issue they want to keep on running. The fact that they run it does not necessarily mean that it is appropriate that matters be dealt with in the manner they describe. The Cabinet made a decision that it is appropriate, and I agree, that all these matters be dealt with pursuant to the terms of reference furnished to Mr. Justice Cooke. That is as opposed to its being dealt with in the political arena, which involves charge and counter charge and a greater interest in targeting me as Minister with some political charges than discovering the truth of this issue. I hope we get to the truth quickly. I have the greatest respect for the judge who has been appointed and Members of this House should show some respect for him and not draw him into political controversy.