Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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5. To ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if he will indicate, in respect of overall workforce planning within the public service, if there is a planned response to instances where the recruitment embargo is relaxed for individual Departments and-or agencies or if it is the case that embargoes are only lifted in cases where management repeatedly requests that recruitment take place; the factors that are taken into consideration when deciding to make exceptions to the recruitment embargo; if there is any long-term plan to address specific workforce shortage areas without jeopardising overall staff resources across the public service; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [9672/14]

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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I have asked similar questions to this one on a number of occasions. My primary objective is to ascertain how the Department will decide where to lift the public service recruitment embargo. We are all aware of areas where public service staff numbers are unevenly balanced. This sometimes impacts on the productivity of public services. I heard on the radio this morning, for example, that patients are being kept in ambulances because beds are not available for them. That is the background to the question.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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Last month, I launched a new public service reform plan for the next three years. Building on the achievements of the previous plan, the new plan sets out ambitious new reform targets for the public service. It sets out a very clear vision for each of the main sectors within the public service, namely, health, education, local government, justice and the Civil Service. Underpinning each of the specific sectoral objectives is a recognition of the need for sectoral managers across the public service to better and more quickly align resources and staff to meet service need and identify savings to be reinvested in front-line services.

In the reform plan and the Haddington Road agreement I provided a very clear strategic path for the future of the public service. It is now a matter for public service managers to deliver the new reforms, embrace the initiatives set out in the reform plan and make full use of all the tools available under the Haddington Road agreement.

I am aware from previous questions asked by the Deputy that she is concerned about the disparity between the number of public servants available in different areas. For example, workers in one local authority may have to cater for a much larger population than a similar number of workers in another local authority area. The Deputy has made this point well and I agree with her on the matter. One could also examine issues related to the disposition of nursing staff in providing a service to the same cohort of population. Differences have developed historically and it is very difficult in a time of limited resources to redress these imbalances. However, I take cognisance of and acknowledge the validity of the points the Deputy has made on this issue.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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If consideration is being given to relaxing the embargo on public service recruitment, is a workforce planning framework in place against which one could match numbers? Until now, most of the discussion on reform has been focused on cutting costs. A real reform programme must be focused on delivering services differently and redressing the imbalance in public service numbers to close gaps in services. Why should one part of the country have much higher class sizes or a much smaller budget for youth services than other parts of the country? Is each Department engaged in workforce planning and is this matched against the relaxation of the public service recruitment embargo? Alternatively, are people making a strong argument for relaxing the embargo and, if so, what is the nature of these arguments?

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I strongly agree with the first point the Deputy made. There was a clear emphasis on cost reduction in the first wave of reforms. However, we implemented the cost reduction in an innovative manner to ensure we delivered services more efficiently. More than 400 public services are now available online and we are examining the top 20 transactions people engage in to ascertain if they can be completed more efficiently and effectively.

As indicated in my response to Deputy Ross, we have looked at a lot of the back-office supports, including payroll and human resources management and so on, in the context of having shared services, thereby releasing money and staff to be reinvested in the front line. I was then able, for example, to relax the embargo on Garda recruitment. Along with the additional gardaí to be recruited this year, more than 900 resource teachers are being recruited and additional SNAs will also be deployed. We are using what I term the "reform dividend" of back-office savings to front-load front-line services.

Catherine Murphy (Kildare North, Independent)
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That requires investment in, for example, IT systems that communicate with each other. If a patient is left on a trolley in an ambulance because there is no hospital trolley or bed available, that essentially is a productivity issue in terms of the use of an ambulance. Everything must fit together. The Norwegian system, which includes a huge public service platform that is based on a good IT system, has produced gigantic savings, but they had to invest heavily in it.

Brendan Howlin (Wexford, Labour)
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I wish that as Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform I had Norwegian oil. We could then have extraordinarily good public platforms. Norway has the biggest reserves of money of any country in Europe.

In regard to the Deputy's point, we are investing. We are investing to save. That is the reason we had to front-load People Point. We had to ensure we had people in training. An important part of the second wave of reforms I have announced goes to the point about management made by the Deputy. The notion that the number of trolleys and ambulances would not be in sync is a management issue. People take responsibility for this. The purpose of the proposals in relation to upskilling and training is to ensure people doing particular jobs are fit to do them. We must ensure we do not, as has happened in the past, appoint somebody to the position of procurement or personnel officer without any prior training. We can then make them accountable. The Deputy will be aware that a series of town hall meetings have been held to obtain the views of public servants on how these important issues can be addressed.