Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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2. To ask the Taoiseach the number of occasions on which the Economic Management Council is scheduled to meet in advance of Budget 2014. [39070/13]

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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3. To ask the Taoiseach when the Economic Management Council last met representatives of the Irish banks. [39071/13]

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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4. To ask the Taoiseach if the Economic Management Council has any plans to meet representatives of the banks. [39072/13]

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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5. To ask the Taoiseach the number of occasions on which the Economic Management Council has met since the summer recess. [39081/13]

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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8. To ask the Taoiseach when the Economic Management Council last met. [39091/13]

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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17. To ask the Taoiseach if he will report on meetings held between the banks and the Economic Management Council. [40867/13]

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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18. To ask the Taoiseach the schedule of meetings for the Economic Management Council before the budget. [40915/13]

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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20. To ask the Taoiseach when the Economic Management Council last met. [42213/13]

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I propose to take Questions Nos. 2 to 5, inclusive, 8, 17, 18 and 20 together.

The Economic Management Council has met five times since the summer recess, most recently on 2 October. In general, the EMC meets on a weekly basis and it will continue to meet over the coming week in advance of the budget.

The members of the council met representatives of the banks twice in 2012, the last time on 26 June 2012. As part of this process, I expect that members of the Economic Management Council will meet representatives of the banks as required during the remainder of 2013 to ensure that the banking sector supports economic recovery.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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I agree with everything an Teachta Boyd Barrett said. It is a matter of deep concern that when people raise these issues, the Government seems to be oblivious to what is happening in communities, households and families. I do not understand why the Government kowtows to the bankers. I do not know why it cannot introduce an independent adjudication arrangement or service. That deals very much with the previous question.

The budget is being put together by this EMC, which, as I understand it, is a group of four male Ministers. The way the Government goes about its business contradicts all the high rhetoric we hear about transparency, openness and political reform. The budgets have been mean spirited. I have no sense of the Taoiseach being a mean-spirited person, but these are the types of budgets that have been introduced. Four men decide to cut child benefit and the entire Cabinet signs off on taking allowances away from people with severe disabilities. It has cut respite care and imposed a family home tax on tens of thousands who are in mortgage distress. Labour in government has no notion of equality-proofing a budget and has no notion of looking at the social consequences of the types of measures being introduced.

I cannot find a way of articulating the reality of 300,000 mostly young people leaving the State with consequent communal and societal damage. In the 1980s it was only about half that number. Every week 1,200 to 1,700 young people are leaving and more than 400,000 people are unemployed. This small group of middle-aged men have no notion of introducing a stimulus and believe that austerity rules. Austerity is not working - it might work for the elites but it does not work for working folks. The biggest unemployment burden is carried by young people. Youth unemployment is huge and there is no real policy response.

Is it not time to review the Government's budgetary decision-making process and put in place protections? As we face into this budget no one has legislative protection - the Government can decide to do whatever it wants in terms of cuts and all the rest of it. I ask the Taoiseach to review those processes.

I again commend to the Taoiseach Sinn Féin's budget proposals. This is not mathematical, but ideological. The Government can adjust the deficit in a fair and equitable way or it can do it in the way it is doing it.

The reason I raise all of these points is to suggest that there is a better way of going forward, positioned, founded, based and embedded upon equality and fairness as opposed to what we have at this time. Let us remember that this is the seventh austerity budget and another one is promised for next year. I commend that approach to the Taoiseach and call on him to review the processes which he currently has in place.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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There are ten minutes remaining. Deputy Martin, Deputy Higgins and Deputy Boyd Barrett have yet to ask questions.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I hope Deputy Martin did not think I was going to speak for ten minutes.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I would not doubt the Taoiseach.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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Should we take the questions first and then get the Taoiseach to reply?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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I put it to Deputy Adams that the budget for 2014 has not been signed off on. The budget for 2014 will be signed off on collectively by the Cabinet before next Tuesday. The House is aware that the Minister for Finance deals with the income stream in terms of taxation measures and so on. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform deals with the question of current spending and related issues. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, is engaging with all Ministers individually about the ceilings for their Departments, how the allocation is to be spent, the issues they have raised in that regard and all of that. That applies in the case of every Minister. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, has set out the options or the range he must deal with in terms of taxation measures.

Deputy Adams will be aware that today the Cabinet approved the general structure for the budget. This was a matter for discussion with the troika personnel in Brussels, as is normal procedure, but not the detail of the budget - the framework only. Very good reasons have been set out for this because, as has been mentioned already, with debt going to peak next year it is important that the targets we have set out be achieved, that there be a primary surplus and that the Government takes into account an understanding of the pressure, difficulties and challenges that so many people in our country have to contend with every day. That is the deliberation for the Cabinet. The Economic Management Council does not sign off on all the details of the budget; that is a constitutional responsibility of the entire Cabinet.

I put it to Deputy Adams that his figures are incorrect in respect of emigration. There have been 15 consecutive months of a fall in the live register and unemployment is now down to 13.3% and is going to fall further.

Gerry Adams (Louth, Sinn Fein)
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Does the Taoiseach think that is okay? Will he give us the emigration figures?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Obviously it is not enough, but the initiatives taken by the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, have certainly contributed to that positivity and sense of achievement. We know it is not enough but given the situation and that we still have to borrow €1 billion per month, it is never easy. We have made the point that this budget is difficult. We want to do what is necessary to achieve our targets but at the same time we understand the pressures people are under. We will use whatever flexibility we have to put that into situations where jobs can be created.

The Minister, Deputy Howlin, announced a €2.5 billion stimulus last year for the likes of one quadrant of the Grangegorman campus, a number of schools that are currently under way, major roads and so on. There is a €13.5 billion capital expenditure programme between now and the end of 2015 which should create thousands of jobs and will provide much-needed infrastructure in various locations.

Let me confirm again that the budget has not been signed off on. That is a matter for the entire Cabinet. The process involves each Minister dealing individually with the Minister for Finance in terms of the income revenue. The overall framework is now in place and the details will be worked out before Tuesday night.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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My questions relate to the Economic Management Council. Many people are concerned that more advisers than members of Government attend and speak at this very powerful council. Fundamental questions must be asked in terms of the constitutionality of the council. Some Ministers, the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney and the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, in particular, have been highly critical of the overarching role of the Economic Management Council. There is a lack of transparency around it because many budget documents which had been published automatically are now withheld because the Taoiseach has given this council the right to assert Cabinet confidentiality.

I draw the attention of the Taoiseach to a startling revelation in a recently published book, The Price of Power, by Pat Leahy in respect of the role of the Economic Management Council in a fundamental decision approximately two years ago, in which the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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A great book. Interesting reading.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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A Cabinet decision was taken-----

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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I bought it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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This is a serious matter and I am keen to proceed without interruption, please. A formal Cabinet decision was taken to burn bondholders by €6 billion. Subsequently, the European Central Bank got wind of this and Mr. Trichet, the then Governor, was in touch with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan. A tense situation unfolded and the Economic Management Council was convened and told about the resistance of the ECB to this measure.

To the great surprise of the rest of the Cabinet, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, was ten minutes late in making his presentation to the House. When he arrived in the House he announced the recapitalisation proposals minus the burning of the bondholders, to the astonishment of several Ministers. The book states that no one noticed that a drama of huge proportions had just taken place. No one in this House was informed that such had occurred in the hours and days beforehand. The book states that the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Varadkar, although in Brussels, was especially angry when he learned the news. Only the members of the Cabinet knew that a different course of action had been decided upon a few days earlier. The book further states that some wondered about the legality of Noonan's announcement given what the Cabinet itself had agreed and so on. We have a situation made up of an extraordinary decision-making process involving the Economic Management Council whereby the Cabinet had taken a formal decision that there would be recapitalisation plus burden sharing, which I understand was of the order of €6 billion. The intervention of the European Central Bank stopped the Government in its tracks but there was no subsequent Cabinet meeting to deal with the ECB's resistance. Many Ministers were stunned with what had happened.

I put it to the Taoiseach that there is an urgent need to publish the minutes and work of the council. Why did the Government not open up on that day in terms of what had happened? Why was everyone else kept in the dark, including Ministers, in terms of the announcement that the Minister for Finance made that day to Dáil Éireann? He was ten minutes late. His speech was hurriedly put together because of all the engagement and threats from Mr. Trichet, who said that if the Government did it, the bomb would go off but it would not go off in Frankfurt. It would go off in Dublin, he warned. I call on the Taoiseach to confirm that this occurred. Why was that withheld from the public for so long? Why did we have to wait for the publication of this book to get some insight into the manner in which the Economic Management Council works, particularly vis-à-vis the rest of the Cabinet?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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We have time for brief questions from Deputy Higgins and Deputy Boyd Barrett, after which the Taoiseach will reply to all questions.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Will the Taoiseach indicate whether there are Standing Orders or written materials on the Economic Management Council or its function and role? Many people believe that a coup d'état has taken place inside this Government and that the Economic Management Council has seized all powers to itself. It is made up of the Taoiseach - the prime minister, the deputy prime minister and two finance ministers. They are the four horsemen of the austerity apocalypse or the austerity agenda, so to speak. They ride roughshod over the other Ministers.

The Minister for Social Protection has evidenced great angst over this seizure of power and has delivered of herself quite publicly on the issue, let alone the number of private briefings she has given, which seem to go on endlessly. I am not too concerned about bruised ministerial egos.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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WikiLeaks.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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More seriously, the Taoiseach rides roughshod over the democracy of the Irish people. That is the key point. The Taoiseach's predecessors in history, the four horsemen of the apocalypse, brought pestilence and famine and he has not gone quite that far yet.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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There are three of them sitting on the Opposition benches.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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However, the Economic Management Council foists the dictatorial demands of the European monetary and political establishment on the people to save the financial interests of the big bondholders and financial markets and at a huge cost. I ask the Taoiseach to answer the question raised by the revelations on the part of the deputy editor of The Sunday Business Post, which are that the President of the European Central Bank dictated to a few Ministers, who then came in and dictated to Parliament to foist on the Irish people the entire burden of the European financial crisis, which is a crisis brought about by the speculators and the bondholders. Can the Taoiseach explain this? Did any Ministers revolt at the fact that a Cabinet decision to burn them to some extent at least was overturned by the four horsemen of austerity? The Taoiseach must explain this to the people.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Joe Higgins (Dublin West, Socialist Party)
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Finally, does the Taoiseach not realise the people fundamentally distrust both him and the Government? Does the Taoiseach realise the undemocratic way in which the Government is operating was a huge factor in people's minds last Friday? The Taoiseach could not convince the people to abolish an institution elected by means that would make the managers of the old rotten boroughs in the Ireland of the 1700s and 1800s blush. Does the Taoiseach agree it is time the Irish working people took back the power from the bondholders and the bankers, as well as from the Government that carries out the wishes of those massively powerful and private sectors to the huge cost of the people?

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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My question to the Taoiseach is similar to that asked by Deputy Higgins, albeit looking at it from the angle of those who are affected by this dictatorship of the Economic Management Council, which itself appears to be nothing more than a conduit for the demands of the European Central Bank, the international financial markets, the bankers here and the very wealthy. Such groups appear to get what they want as notwithstanding a certain amount of rhetoric and expressions of concern and sympathy on the Taoiseach's part for the plight of those who are obliged to suffer austerity, when it comes to the bottom line, they get what they want. Taxes they do not like are not imposed, tax breaks they seek are given and vetoes they seek on mortgages are granted to them. In short, whatever it is they seek, they get. On the other hand, ordinary people and civil society organisations, trade unions and so on, plead with the Government year after year and are doing so again this year. I refer to antipoverty groups that index the worsening crises of poverty, of homelessness, of emigration and of mental health deterioration among huge swathes of the population such is the stress, anxiety and pressure being imposed on them because of the financial straits in which they find themselves. They plead repeatedly with the Government, say "no more" and ask that it not be done to them again. However, reports in today's newspapers indicate the Government is setting its sights yet again on the most vulnerable. This is because the Government will not increase corporate tax and will not consider increasing higher taxes for those in receipt of more than €100,000 per year. Moreover, as it will not impose a financial transaction tax, who else remains? The only people the Government can attack are the same people it has attacked year after year. The Taoiseach may put up his hands and may say he is terribly sorry about this, it hurts him more than it hurts them but that is what the Government does. As this is what the newspaper reports suggest again, the Taoiseach should tell Members this is not true.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Thank you Deputy.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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The Taoiseach should tell Members the Government does not intend to take €400 million from the poorest people in Ireland out of the social welfare budget. He should state the Government will not hit the disabled again, it will not hit class sizes and will not hit low and middle-income families. The Taoiseach should provide Members with such an assurance and that the Government is at least considering the possibility of imposing some of the burden on the corporate sector and on the very wealthy through wealth taxes, higher income taxes on higher earners or whatever. He should indicate whether the Government is even considering such measures.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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A range of questions was asked. First, the Economic Management Council has the status of a Cabinet committee and has four members, namely, me, the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform. It is not the Cabinet and does not have the collective responsibility of the Cabinet in putting together and agreeing the final details of the budget. A second Secretary General has been appointed in my Department whose responsibilities include managing support for the Economic Management Council and who deals with that area of support. Moreover, additional support is provided for the Economic Management Council from within the existing resources of my Department. They work in close connection with the Departments of Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform and Foreign Affairs and Trade. The role of the council is to manage the Government's programme in respect of economic planning and budgetary matters, the economic recovery programme, including the representation of Ireland internationally with the European Union-European Central Bank-IMF troika, the integration of the work of Departments and agencies in these matters and the co-ordination of banking policy. This is what the Economic Management Council was set up to do and these are its responsibilities.

The council provides a forum to discuss strategic issues before they get into Government for decision and like other Cabinet committees, it does not replace the role of the Government, whereby all Ministers have a duty and responsibility to contribute to final decision-making. It is good practice, on foot of lessons learned from previous mistakes, to have a forum in which relevant Ministers and officials can consider the economic strategy based on the best advantages to the country. As I stated, the budget for 2014 has not been signed off on or approved by the Cabinet in general and that will happen before Tuesday. I might add the Ministers present, namely, the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, and the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Fitzgerald, are both strong and vociferous contributors to the Cabinet process, as are all other Ministers and as they have a duty to be.

Deputy Higgins spoke about a revolt and whether anyone revolted. While the people obviously have strong views to express at times, that falls somewhere short of the revolution of which Deputy Higgins speaks.

Richard Boyd Barrett (Dún Laoghaire, People Before Profit Alliance)
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What about the Ministers?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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There can be nothing as absolutely democratic as consulting the people. That is the essence of democracy, namely, asking one's people. Four years ago, in respect of the Seanad business, I stated that people would be asked this question.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is not about the Seanad.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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People stated it was a stunt or simply was opportunism, but it happened and I am glad the people gave a clear answer.

Tommy Broughan (Dublin North East, Labour)
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The Taoiseach blew it.

Michael Healy-Rae (Kerry South, Independent)
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Who drew up the Seanad amendment?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Far be it from me to comment on the esteemed author of a recently-published book.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am not asking the Taoiseach to do so.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, the Deputy is not but-----

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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The Taoiseach should give him a plug; he needs a plug.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----he is asking me to confirm what he read out.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Yes. Is it true?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Clearly, the matters that are discussed by the Economic Management Council have the same status as any Cabinet committee and are therefore subject to confidentiality.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach must be joking.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Deputy Martin does not expect me to comment "Yea" or "Nay" in respect of-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I do. It is a very serious issue.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----what he has read out there, no more than-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a very serious issue. He should.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----any other book or newspaper report. Speculation is-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach's people, as well as those of the Minister, are leaking like sieves.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Please, order.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Speculation is one thing but the minutes of Cabinet meetings are something else.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can the Taoiseach confirm it? This relates to a statement to the House.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Order, please.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Unlike the crowd with which the Deputy was associated himself.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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No.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Does the Deputy not remember the fact that the plate seems to be cleaned-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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I am asking the Taoiseach to answer a question. Did that happen? Why is he hiding it?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----seems to be sanitised of minutes of the meetings that have been held?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach will not even comment on this.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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It seems to be sanitised-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach should go by his own standards. Did it happen or did it not?

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----of the greatest crucifixion ever put on the people. There is not a trace of it.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach will not answer the question.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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Some €64 billion, €400 billion in all-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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Hear, hear.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Where are the minutes of that?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach is blustering and everybody knows it.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Quiet, please.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----and there are no minutes. The minutes of the Cabinet meetings that we deal with are there for everybody.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach was asked a straight question. Did the Minister, Deputy Michael Noonan, come in-----

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy can talk and comment all he likes-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and do something in this House contrary to what his Ministers had decided? Yes or no, Taoiseach.

Regina Doherty (Meath East, Fine Gael)
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Empty vessels.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----but facts speak for themselves, and in due course the minutes of the meetings of this Cabinet will tell the true story of our actions-----

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Taoiseach is blustering and filiblustering.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----unlike the fact that we still have to have a banking inquiry to find out the background to the carry-on-----

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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It is sad.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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-----of the Deputy and his associates which left hundreds of thousands of people suffering hardship, challenge and difficulty every day of the week.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Go all around the Houses now, Taoiseach.

Frances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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Where are the Deputy's minutes?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Can the Taoiseach confirm that? Did it happen?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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That concludes Taoiseach's Questions.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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A Leas Ceann Comhairle, I asked a very serious question-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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No, Deputy. I am having no more of this.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and the Taoiseach has made a big deal about being accountable to the House.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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What about Punch and Judy politics?

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It is a very important point.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputy Martin, please.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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It has got to do with a significant proposal that was made before this House-----

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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More Punch and Judy.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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-----and the Taoiseach is hiding the truth from this House and from the people. I asked him a very straight question. Did that happen or did it not? He could not be honest enough to answer it.

Enda Kenny (Mayo, Fine Gael)
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No, I do not-----

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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I must move on to the Order of Business. Order, please. I will have to suspend the House if I cannot get order.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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As usual, the Taoiseach avoided answering the question. It is not the first time.

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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What happened on the night of the guarantee?

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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We are moving on to the Order of Business.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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Selective accountability is now the order of the day.

Micheál Martin (Cork South Central, Fianna Fail)
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The Deputy supported it, for God's sake, so what is he on about?

Bernard Durkan (Kildare North, Fine Gael)
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I can assure the Deputy of one thing; he could tell us a whole lot about it.