Dáil debates

Tuesday, 24 September 2013

Ceisteanna - Questions - Priority Questions

Agriculture Schemes Administration

2:40 pm

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

52. To ask the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine the reason farmers were written to in recent months informing then that they had an over claim of hectares for the last number of years under the single farm payment and disadvantaged schemes; the reason this only came to light now despite aerial photographs and digitisation; if these farmers will be expected to repay any overpayments made to them; if there will be any penalties applied; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [39745/13]

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I am glad this question has been tabled because it gives me the opportunity to clarify an issue about which I suspect many farmers will ask me tomorrow at the ploughing championships. The Deputy will be fully aware of the importance of payments made under the single payment scheme, the disadvantaged areas scheme and other direct payment schemes to the annual income of Irish farmers. My Department is bound, under EU regulations, to maintain the accuracy of the land parcel identification system, LPIS, which underpins the processing of applications under these schemes, as well as the rural environment protection scheme, REPS, and the agri-environment options scheme, AEOS.

At the start of each year, my Department issues colour maps of all land parcels declared by farmers in the previous year together with a covering letter. In that letter farmers are reminded to examine each map carefully and to identify and exclude from their application all ineligible features such as buildings, farmyards, scrub, roadways, forests, lakes and so on included in the land parcels. There is, therefore, an onus on all farmers to ensure the area of land declared by them as eligible for payment under the direct payment system is accurate. They also are given the means to do so by making available the ortho-photos to them on an annual basis. These requirements are also made clear in the terms and conditions of the schemes, which accompany the preprinted application form issued to all farmers at the commencement of the application period each year. In view of the size and structure of farm enterprises in Ireland, farmers are fully aware of all of the non-eligible areas of their holdings. In addition to any changes submitted by farmers and to ensure the integrity of the LPIS, my Department continuously reviews the eligibility of lands claimed by farmers for the single payment scheme and other direct payment schemes.

This is the important part. As part of the clearance process, a bilateral meeting was held on 25 July between the European Commission clearance auditors and my Department. At that meeting it was agreed that to avoid a significant correction - which means fines or disallowances - this Department would be obliged first, to review its entire LPIS database and deal with ineligible features, in other words to re-digitise, second, to establish any overpayments due to the over-declaration and seek refund from the farmers involved since 2009 and third, to prepare a report of its findings to the Commission by 15 December.

Additional information not given on the floor of the House

This is a mammoth task but my Department is making efforts to ensure it will be completed in a manner that satisfies the Commission. The Department is currently reviewing all land parcels claimed in respect of the 2009 to 2012 direct payment scheme years. This effectively means a review of all 950,000 land parcels for each of four scheme years. As a result of this phase of this review, any payments made to farmers in respect of claimed areas, which were found to be ineligible, must be reimbursed.

If farmers are not satisfied with the determination made in their case, my intention is to introduce a robust and comprehensive appeal process. In the first instance, applicants will be entitled to have their case reviewed by submitting their appeal on the form provided by my Department. If they are not satisfied with the outcome of the review, they can appeal their case to the independent land eligibility appeals committee. This committee will consist of an independent chairman and appeal officers from the agriculture appeals office.

2:50 pm

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I thank the Minister for his reply, but it will not satisfy many farmers. Most farmers thought they had passed the test for 2008, 2009 and 2010, that the Department had double-checked their homework for those years and that if they adhered to what the Department had agreed in the digitisation and examination of the maps, following all the letters they had received in the last few years, that the maps were in order. Elderly farmers, in particular, thought they were in order because their homework had been passed. They then received a letter in July stating that they might have been overpaid from 2008 to 2010. No map accompanied the letter. I have a copy of the letter with me if the Minister wishes to see it. The letter did not say on what basis the overpayment was being calculated. Having written to the Department and eventually getting the maps, the Department wrote back to the farmers to say it was not the years 2008 to 2010 but the years 2009 to 2012. The Minister should bear in mind that in a case where one has a farm of 10 hectares, 0.3 of an error is the 3% limit of error one is allowed. It is not a huge amount of land. Is it legally possible for the State to carry this burden rather than the farmer?

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

No, it is not. I will explain how and why this happened. Every year we look at maps that have been used for applications and assess approximately one-quarter of them. Where there are inaccuracies and land that is not eligible for payment, we ask farmers to correct them. That is normal practice. However, the Commission is not satisfied with the way this has been done and has asked us to look at every land parcel in the country, with no exception. We now have a far more accurate mapping system using a new technology which is, essentially, satellite imagery. The maps farmers have been using until about a year ago were made from photographs taken by airplanes flying at high altitude. The satellite technology is much more accurate. The maps are crystal clear now, as opposed to being a little fuzzy in terms of detail. As a result of that, we now have no excuses regarding the accuracy of the amount of land that is eligible and ineligible. This is public money that is being spent. We cannot stand over a situation where public money has been spent on paying farmers for land that was not eligible for payments, so we must ask for it back.

As to whether the Commission is serious about this, if we do not do it, significant fines will be imposed on us. The Commission has fined the UK €58 million, Poland €30 million, Denmark €11.45 million, Spain €132 million, Italy €111 million, Greece €104 million and France €62 million for this reason. I can understand why farmers might well be irritated by being asked to make repayments on land on which they should not have received payments, but they would be far more irritated if I had to take money away from their schemes to pay the type of fines that other European countries have had to pay because they were not compliant. For that reason, we will be compliant.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

In the Minister's first reply he used the words "disallowance" and "fine" interchangeably.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Yes.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

There a difference between a disallowance of a recoupment and a fine. If the Minister cannot provide the details now, will he forward to me the exact basis on which this country could be either disallowed or fined if we decided to correct the maps but not to collect the money back over five years and impose huge penalties year after year, because the Department had passed the payments and people thought they were in order?

Will the Minister confirm that it is perfectly in order for those farmers affected to make informal appeals and formal appeals and to seek oral hearings in respect of the formal appeals? Will he also confirm that it will be open to them, on the basis that bad procedures were used, to take their cases to the Ombudsman? I will be recommending that each and every farmer involved should pursue this matter all the way to the Ombudsman. This was a case of bad practice and now, five years later, people are being pursued for money.

2:55 pm

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It would be highly irresponsible to encourage farmers to take the course the Deputy has just described because it would be a waste of their time and resources were they to do so. The legalities relating to this matter are very clear. The rules are outlined to farmers when they complete the relevant forms each year.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

Let us see what the Ombudsman thinks.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

If a farmer makes an application in respect of land that is not eligible, the onus is on him or her to correct the position. We are following up on this matter and we have the technology to do so much more accurately than was the case in the past. We are required by the Commission to do it in respect of every land parcel throughout the country rather than simply proceeding, as was previously the case, on the basis of a random sample. I advise farmers not to listen to Deputy Ó Cuív when he suggests they go to the Ombudsman because they will be wasting their time. I do not want to waste people's time, particularly that of busy farmers.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

I can-----

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The second issue is that a disallowance essentially amounts to the same thing as a fine. The Deputy was in government for a period and he clearly does not understand how the relationship between the Commission and my Department works in the context of disallowances. If we obtain a disallowance, we are obliged to pay it back. A disallowance is money which the Commission has given us and which it wants back.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

That is the €1.4 million.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

As a result of its level of compliance, Ireland has one of the lowest rates of disallowance-----

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

The disallowance is €1.4 million.

Photo of Simon CoveneySimon Coveney (Cork South Central, Fine Gael)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

-----among the more senior member states. The position is that we must address and correct this situation. We must also correct the maps and recoup money which should not have been given out to farmers because the land in respect of which it was drawn down was not eligible. If we do that, we will avoid the kind of disallowances the countries to which I referred earlier have suffered. Ultimately, it will be farmers who will suffer if disallowances are imposed upon us because I will be obliged to remove the requisite moneys from my Department's budget.

Photo of Éamon Ó CuívÉamon Ó Cuív (Galway West, Fianna Fail)
Link to this: Individually | In context | Oireachtas source

It would be €1.4 million.