Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I wish to share time with Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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The Deputies have two minutes each.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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And we have one minute for a reply.

Ciarán Lynch (Cork South Central, Labour)
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One minute each.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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As many others in this House have done, I represent some very unhappy parents and children in fee-paying schools. They are unhappy because they see the pupil-teacher ratio being raised to 23:1 in September, with the intention of another increase - possibly to 27:1 - by 2015, and because they see themselves as victims of an ideological policy that makes no sense and a Labour Party plan, based only on ideology, to remove all public funding from private schools as soon as possible.

The idea that private schools are necessarily the privilege of the elite is not always true. In some cases it is true that only some people can afford it, but in many other cases parents make great sacrifices. They save, scrimp and do not do things other parents do in order to educate their children in the way they feel is best for them. This is particularly true in schools that have a different ethos from the majority. I am referring to Church of Ireland schools and schools of other religions and denominations. In these cases, parents feel that because that they have such little choice, they must send their children to schools where that ethos is predominant. Twenty out of the 55 affected schools are fee-paying and they feel they are being discriminated against. What we need is an assurance from the Minister that they are not threatened and will not be treated in this way and that fee-paying parents are making a contribution to the State. If this trend continues, the State will be landed with more expense rather than less.

Mary Mitchell O'Connor (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I thank Deputy Ross for sharing time. Parents and pupils living in the constituency of Dún Laoghaire have a serious problem because they do not have the choices enjoyed by parents throughout the country when it comes to sending their children to voluntary secondary schools, community schools or VEC schools. Due to a historical overhang and through no fault of their own, many parents have to trump up for their children's education. Many schools in my area did not enter the voluntary system in the 1960s. Therefore, parents are forced to pay in order for their children to access second-level education.

Of course, many parents choose to send their children to privately funded schools. However, many of my constituents have lost their jobs, taken cuts in their salaries, are paying huge mortgages and have paid the household charge.

They are not immune to the recession and quite honestly, many can no longer afford to pay for their children's education.

For example, in Navan town, parents have a choice of four free voluntary schools in the town and they also have access to schools in Dunshaughlin, Trim, Kells and Nobber. In Tuam town, parents have a choice of four free voluntary schools. However, in my area with a population of approximately 107,000, second level pupils have a choice of four to five free voluntary schools in the whole of the Dún Laoghaire constituency area. I also wish to draw the attention of the Minister and to argue on behalf of schools of minority faith in my constituency and throughout the country who, for historical and geographical reasons, will be negatively affected by a pupil-teacher ratio which will be much higher than in other schools. This is unjust and unfair. Parents have paid their taxes on their incomes and they should be able to spend their hard-earned cash on their children's education without their children being subjected to larger classes. I ask the Minister to accept these arguments against any further increase in the pupil-teacher ratio for private schools.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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I thank the Deputies for giving me the opportunity to outline to the House the position on this issue. The Government has protected front-line services in schools to the greatest extent possible in the recent budget. Therefore, there will be no reduction in teacher numbers in primary schools and in free second level schools for the 2013 to 2014 school year. The DEIS scheme for disadvantaged schools is also fully protected with no overall changes to staffing levels or funding as a result of the budget. At post-primary level, a two-point increase in the pupil teacher ratio in fee-charging second level schools will be introduced in September 2013. This is in order to promote fairness in funding second level schools.

There are currently 55 schools out of 723 post-primary schools charging fees ranging from €2,550 to €10,065 for day pupils. At present, the State pays the salaries of one teacher for every 21 pupils in these schools compared with one teacher for every 19 pupils in schools in the free education scheme. A ratio of 18.25 pupils to one teacher, applies in DEIS schools. This will rise to 23:1 in fee-charging schools from September 2013.

However, these schools have the resources, through fees charged, to employ teachers privately, an option that is not available to schools in the free education scheme. A report on the analysis of the tuition income of fee-charging schools carried out by the Department was recently published. It shows these schools have €81 million in discretionary income that is not available to schools in the free scheme. It is important to note that the report does not contain any policy proposals at this stage. However, even after the budget changes are implemented, the discretionary income available to these schools will still be quite considerable.

There are some concerns within the Church of Ireland community about the recent budget measure affecting fee-charging schools. This Government recognises the importance of ensuring that students from a Protestant or reformed church background can attend a school that reflects their denominational ethos while at the same time ensuring that funding arrangements are in accordance with the provisions of the Constitution. The issue of providing education for widely dispersed and small local communities does present a particular challenge, especially where enrolment is declining to single figures. The Government wishes to foster pluralism in school provision and regards supporting small communities, including minorities to maintain their schools as being part of that policy.

With regard to the fee-charging Protestant schools, an arrangement exists whereby funding is provided by my Department to the Secondary Education Committee, an organisation run by the churches involved in managing the Protestant secondary schools. The SEC then disburses funds to the Protestant fee-charging schools on behalf of pupils who would otherwise have difficulty with the cost of fees and who, in the absence of such financial support, would be unable to attend a second level school of a reformed church or Protestant ethos. Funding amounts to €6.5 million annually. This fund ensures that Protestant children who require financial support can attend a school of their choice. In conclusion, I wish to confirm that the Minister and Department officials will continue to engage with the relevant education sector stakeholders, including the Church of Ireland and boards of education on education provision for all areas.

Shane Ross (Dublin South, Independent)
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I thank the Minister of State for his reply which is full of aspiration and provides no comfort whatsoever, except fine words, about what the Government would like to do and how it recognises the ethos and the difficulties of the Church of Ireland schools and other schools. This train has already left the station in that Kilkenny College has already opted to go into the public sector and other Church of Ireland schools and minority schools and other fee-paying schools which are not Church of Ireland schools, are already considering going into the public sector. The consequences of this decision are simple. Whatever the effect on the ethos, the effect on the Exchequer will be detrimental. In depriving people of this right, the Minister is costing the taxpayer a significant sum. I refer to a PwC report which found that a saving of €3,500 was being made to the State for each privately-educated pupil. This is a kind of a win-win situation but for ideological reasons the Labour Party is kicking people in the teeth. When people are prepared to make this sacrifice, whether it is right or wrong, when they are prepared for a particular education for their children, the State should not kick them in the teeth but rather it should be grateful and it should say "Yes". I have been approached by schools like Wesley College in my constituency and other schools who see the Minister's particular attempts to take away money by the back door as threatening their ethos and their future.

Mary Mitchell O'Connor (Dún Laoghaire, Fine Gael)
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I will be very brief. The points I tried to make were that the parents in my constituency do not have a choice. They all scramble to try to get their children into the State-funded schools and if this is not possible, they have nowhere else to go. I am not exaggerating when I say that we have only four to five State-funded schools in the area. Our pupils have nowhere to go. The Minister of State can talk all he likes about the fund of €81 million available to the private schools but people in my constituency who have lost their jobs or who have taken substantial cuts in their salaries and whose children are 11 and 12 years of age cannot afford to pay and they have nowhere to go. What can I advise them, as their public representative? I was a school principal in an area and this was a constant problem. I have been assured by the new principal that the problem has got worse in the past years. Despite all the talk about what the private schools have in their funding, I am worried about the parents and the children and their education and not about the private schools, per se.

Seán Sherlock (Cork East, Labour)
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Deputy Ross referred to five Protestant comprehensive schools which do not charge fees. Second level schools such as Kilkenny College and previously Wilson's Hospital, have demonstrated that they believe they can maintain and promote their Church of Ireland ethos through the free second level scheme.

I have referred to the report and the analysis which we cannot dismiss. It shows clearly that €81 million of discretionary income is not available to schools in the free scheme and that there is a mechanism funded to the value of €6.5 million annually which allows for the disbursement of moneys through the SEC to pupils who would otherwise have difficulty with the cost of fees and, in the absence of financial support, be unable to attend a second level school of a reformed church or Protestant ethos. There are mechanisms in place. Fee paying schools have been treated in budgetary terms in exactly the same way as all other religious ethos schools in a manner consistent with the Constitution. The Department is open to discussions with any fee paying school of Protestant ethos on transitioning to the free scheme and will look at each case sympathetically and in detail.