Dáil debates

Wednesday, 29 May 2013

Topical Issue Debate

Turf Cutting Compensation Scheme Issues

3:25 pm

Photo of Luke FlanaganLuke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Unfortunately, the way the Dáil is structured does not work very well at times and today we have seen it. I hope we will have another debate on the child care issue very soon. Everyone would like to have been involved in it. I have children and we were lucky we had excellent child care facilities.

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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I ask the Deputy to speak to the issue.

Photo of Luke FlanaganLuke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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I will but it must be said that the debate must be held again. Surely it is worth 30 seconds.

Photo of Frances FitzgeraldFrances Fitzgerald (Dublin Mid West, Fine Gael)
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I agree.

Photo of Luke FlanaganLuke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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I wish the Minister the best of luck with it.

The cessation of the turf cutting compensation scheme has caused much concern for quite some time, and major concern in recent weeks because legal agreements were sent to those who signed up to the scheme. A frequently asked questions document was sent with the legal agreement and one of the questions was with regard to what the letter was about. The answer stated under the cessation of turf cutting compensation scheme in order to finalise - a very important word - compensation arrangements applicants must sign a legal agreement with the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht. It also stated the letter included the legal agreement the person was being asked to sign, with the instruction to return both copies of the agreement to the Department within four months.

One of the implications of signing this finalising legal agreement is that if the more than 700 families who wanted to be relocated, or signed up to be relocated under the compensation scheme, sign up they will be told that if an alternative bog is not found by 2017 in the case of the first bogs designated, or 2018 otherwise, then the Minister may move these people to another scheme. This other scheme is financial compensation, something to which they did not sign up and something about which we warned them, but now their eyes have been firmly opened.

Some people will say 2018 is a long way away and all of the relocation bogs will be organised by then. Perhaps if we had a competent National Parks and Wildlife Service it would happen and perhaps if we had a Minister who would really work with turf cutters it might happen, but this is not what is happening. As a result, since 1997 none of the 53 supposedly special area of conservation bogs has been successfully organised with regard to relocation for the turf cutters affected. The idea that between now and 2018 something will happen all of a sudden and all of these people will be satisfied is barely credible to say the least. The Turf Cutters and Contractors Association warned - I am bringing in its message; these are not my words but those I have been asked to bring in - that all the Government was trying to do was slowly but surely stop people cutting turf. Now it transpires, and is quite clear, that the scheme was a halfway house to stop people cutting turf.

Other concerns have been raised in this regard, one of which is whether it will put a burden on the land. It will and there will be a cost to this. Who will bear it? It looks like it will be the turf cutter. There is also an issue with regard to indemnity but we will return to this.

Photo of Jimmy DeenihanJimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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It is a condition of the cessation of turf cutting compensation scheme that applicants must sign a legal agreement with me as Minister. These legal agreements are required under the scheme to give legal certainty to people regarding their long-term compensation. It binds the State to deliver on the compensation they have been promised. The signing of agreements also means the applicant undertakes to no longer cut turf on special areas of conservation. The scheme sets out clearly the obligations placed on the recipients and on me as Minister. As announced in the Dail debate in March last year, an additional once-off incentive payment of €500 for qualifying cutters is being provided where agreements are signed with the Department.

Under the cessation of turf cutting compensation scheme, three types of legal agreements have been and are being issued by the Department. There is an agreement for qualifying turf cutters who sign up to the annual payment of €1,500, index-linked, for 15 years. There is also an interim relocation agreement for qualifying turf cutters who have expressed an interest in relocation but where no relocation site is available for them. This relocation interim legal agreement provides for the payment of €1,500, index-linked, or a supply of 15 tonnes of cut turf per annum while these applicants are awaiting relocation to non-designated bogs. There is also a final relocation agreement. This agreement has been issued to qualifying turf cutters who have expressed an interest in relocation and where a site has been assessed as suitable for relocation and is ready or can be made ready for use for domestic turf cutting.

The legal agreements are modelled on those which have been agreed with groups of turf cutters from Clara Bog in County Offaly, and from Carrownagappul Bog and Curraghlehanagh Bog in County Galway. The interim legal agreement is required in the case of relocation sites because for the majority of raised bog special areas of conservation the relocation site and the terms and conditions applicable to these sites will take time to finalise. Turf cutters are being asked to sign the interim agreement on the understanding that when a relocation site is sourced, assessed and agreed they will be asked to sign a final legal agreement at that time. If it is not possible to find a suitable relocation site, for example, for reasons of quality or quantity of turf, planning requirements, or issues with regard to the purchase or lease of a site, the Department will consult with turf cutters as to the best option to take at the time.

All of the legal agreements clearly state that title to the property will not change. The existing land ownership or turbary rights held by an applicant will not transfer to me as Minister by the signing of the agreement. As the Deputy is aware from my reply to his question on 25 April last, relocation is a very complex process, in terms of investigating suitable sites for turf quality and quantity; the infrastructure, including drainage works, required; establishing the number who can be accommodated on the site; the cost and feasibility of land purchase or lease; and possible planning and environmental impact assessment requirements.

Of the 2,651 applications for compensation under the cessation of turf cutting compensation scheme received and acknowledged by the Department, 781 applicants have expressed an interest in relocation to non-designated bogs. In collaboration with the Peatlands Council and with the assistance of Bord na Móna, the Department is actively engaging with turf-cutting communities to consider how relocation can be progressed for these applicants.

It is my aim to facilitate, as far as possible, those qualifying cutters who wish to continue to cut turf by putting in place relocation sites for as many cutters as possible in the shortest possible time. The interim agreements are designed to guarantee the delivery of compensation while relocation is being put in place. The national SAC management plan may deliver additional flexibility where relocation is not possible.

The Turf Cutters and Contractors Association could assist this process, and the interests of the majority of cutters who are engaging with my Department, by working with me within the law, rather than encouraging people to work against all our efforts to resolve outstanding issues.

I appeal to the Turf Cutters and Contractors Association to return to the Peatlands Council and engage with the RPS consultants who are now undertaking the scientific work which is essential to underpin the national SAC management plan as well as the review of the national heritage area waste bog scheme.

3:35 pm

Photo of Luke FlanaganLuke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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The organisation that the Minister accuses of working against him is the only organisation in this country which, in the 17 years that this issue has gone on, has produced proposals for a solution. Less than 18 months ago, the chairman of our organisation, Mr. Michael Fitzmaurice, was described in a telephone call by the Taoiseach as a patriot. What has changed? Was there something to be gained from calling him a patriot then, while now suggesting that the same people are working against the Government? I do not really understand that.

The Minister says the legal agreements are modelled on those which have been agreed with groups of turf cutters from Clara bog, Carrownagappul bog and Curraghlehanagh bog. I am very familiar with what is going on there. The Minister may well have come to an agreement with some turf cutters on Clara bog, but he has not come to an agreement with all of them. In fact, the ones the Minister has not come to an agreement with are people who own large amounts of that bog. Is it fair that they are being left out?

The Minister referred to Carrownagappul bog which was held up as an example of one that was working. It was said that if only we would all do what they were doing, the problem would be solved. Deputy Paul Connaughton is connected with that bog. If that bog is solved, why in the last month have people gone back to cut turf on it? Last year, they did not do so because they believed that the Minister was trying to accommodate them. Subsequently, they have discovered that the deal on offer is not like-for-like. A 65 year licence is not the same thing as owning a bog. If a licence-holder dies, it is non-transferable, which is not the same. If the National Parks and Wildlife Service deemed that a person had cut very little turf, they would be out on their ear after a couple of years.

There is a serious question to be answered here about indemnification of bog owners. One of the major concerns expressed at the Peatlands Forum was the issue of flooding neighbouring lands and damaging livestock. We were seeking indemnification for those people. It seems that the Minister sorted out the indemnification for the State and to hell with the turf cutters, but we are not buying it.

Photo of Jimmy DeenihanJimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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We all understand that this is a very complex matter. This is European law transposed into Irish law and we have to implement it. Whatever progress we make here will also have to be within the law. I appeal to Deputy Flanagan and the Turf Cutters and Contractors Association to engage with the RPS consultants on issues such as flooding. I have met the RPS consultants on two occasions and I think there is a great opportunity here. I really mean that. I appeal to Deputy Flanagan and everybody else concerned to engage with the consultants. I think that solutions can be found to some of the present issues, including those the Deputy has raised here in the House. This is a great opportunity that we have been afforded within European law, and with the agreement of Commissioner Potočnik, to try to resolve this matter. I appeal to everyone concerned to engage with the RPS consultants.

Photo of Luke FlanaganLuke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Will the Minister call off the courts then?

Photo of Jimmy DeenihanJimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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I appeal to all to avail of this opportunity.

Photo of Luke FlanaganLuke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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Taking people to court is no way to negotiate.

Photo of Jimmy DeenihanJimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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Today, I have written to a prominent member of the Turf Cutters and Contractors Association saying that I am prepared to talk to them. I will continue to speak to them about this issue. Deputy Flanagan has accepted that more has been done in the last two years than when this was introduced back in 1997. That is when people should have been out there protesting against the designation. More has been achieved, however.

Photo of Luke FlanaganLuke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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We did not know the Minister was designating.

Photo of Seán KennySeán Kenny (Dublin North East, Labour)
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Order, please.

Photo of Jimmy DeenihanJimmy Deenihan (Kerry North-West Limerick, Fine Gael)
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When somebody keeps interrupting, it means that they are hurting.

Some 2,600 people have signed up for compensation. I would like to thank publicly those people who are obeying Irish and European law, who are taking the compensation and are doing their best to co-operate with the Government in solving this matter. Politicians on all sides of the House are making a genuine effort to get a solution. At the end of the day, this is European law. The 53 conserved bogs will win ultimately. They will remain in the ownership of those who own them for future generations to enjoy also.

Photo of Luke FlanaganLuke Flanagan (Roscommon-South Leitrim, Independent)
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And the Minister can sue them.