Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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75. To ask the Minister for Defence the savings that will be secured in the Defence Foces budget this year; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21515/13]

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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As provided for in the Revised Estimates Volume for 2013, the gross provision for the Defence Votes in 2013 is €895 million. This figure is made up of €680 million for the Defence Vote and €215 million for the Army pensions Vote. The gross provision for 2013 shows an overall reduction of €7 million on the 2012 gross provision of €902 million and is mainly accounted for through estimated reductions in pay and allowances in the Defence Votes under the successor to the 2010-14 public service agreement, known as Croke Park II. These reductions follow further significant reductions which have been achieved in recent years in the Defence Votes. The current economic conditions have necessitated reductions in public sector expenditure in Ireland, including defence expenditure. Having regard to these resource constraints, I have initiated a broad range of measures aimed at maintaining the operational capacity of the Defence Forces. Following a comprehensive review of expenditure, I secured the agreement of the Government to accept my recommendation to stabilise the strength of the Permanent Defence Force at 9,500 personnel. This is the optimum strength required to fulfil all roles assigned to it by the Government. A major reorganisation of the Defence Forces was initiated within this strength ceiling. This has prioritised operational capability and redeployed Permanent Defence Force personnel from administrative and support tasks to operational units. In addition, equipment procurement continues to prioritise the operational requirements of the Defence Forces. All of this has been achieved within the reduced resource envelope allocated to defence. The measures I have outlined are ensuring the Defence Forces remain fit for purpose. The Chief of Staff has confirmed that the Defence Forces can continue to meet all operational requirements at home and overseas. The Department continually monitors expenditure trends closely on an ongoing basis. No overall savings in 2013 are anticipated at this stage.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Once again, it is welcome that expenditure is constantly monitored by the Minister's military personnel. It is also welcome that Defence Forces numbers have been fixed at 9,500. I would like to remind the Minister of the responses he gave to parliamentary questions approximately two months ago. Does he agree that he accepted on that occasion that military personnel went way above and beyond the call of duty at an early stage in meeting the demand for reform of the public service? Does he agree that he also accepted on that occasion that many members of the Defence Forces were receiving family income supplement, which is a clear indication that their incomes are very low? Does he, therefore, accept that he did not stand up to the mark as he intimated he would on that occasion - at least, that is my understanding of what he intimated - by defending the members of the Defence Forces? Does he accept that the 10% cut in allowances announced shortly after we last discussed this matter will have a very adverse impact on rank and file soldiers?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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I disagree entirely with what the Deputy has to say with regard to my defending of the position of members of the Defence Forces. If the Deputy's party had continued in government, I would not have been in a position to secure an agreement from the Government that the strength of the Defence Forces should be maintained at 9,500. If I had not secured the additional funding necessary from the Government in 2012 to facilitate this, we would now be looking at the strength of the Defence Forces falling below 8,000.

It was because I secured this agreement that we were able to recruit new members to the Defence Forces during the course of last year, and I am anticipating that we will again be recruiting later this year when the number of retirements for this year becomes clear.

I am very proud of the fact the Defence Forces have, in fairness to them, implemented substantial reform. They have been ahead of the public service pack in the efficiency with which they have implemented reforms and ensured resources are used very carefully in the public interest. I want to pay public tribute to the representative bodies within the Defence Forces for engaging very constructively in the process that took place with a view to assisting in saving the €300 million that must be saved this year and agreeing change and reform that I hope and believe will have very limited financial impact on members of the Defence Forces but will ensure, overall, that the savings that have to be achieved can be made.

Of course, during the many years when the Deputy's party was in government, members of the Defence Forces consistently had to apply for supplementary welfare allowance and for additional financial help through the social welfare system for a whole range of reasons, so the Deputy should not expect anyone to believe that is a new issue. I am very grateful to the representative bodies for their constructive engagement in the interests of their members and in the context of the public duty and patriotism displayed by them.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Obviously, I do not agree with the Minister. Would he agree it is fair that Army generals - under his proposals, not ours - will lose 14% while Army privates lose 6%? Does he accept it is fair that - under his arrangements, not ours - new recruits to the Defence Forces will enter at reduced salary scales, unlike the arrangements that appear to have been arrived at for teachers and possibly for nurses?

Alan Shatter (Dublin South, Fine Gael)
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In the context of any savings that had to be effected, I said that in real financial terms they were not large as they affected any individual, but the approach was that the new financial arrangements would have a greater impact on those who were better paid than on those who were lesser paid. I do not know if the Deputy is suggesting that those who are paid less should have been hit to a greater extent, because that is not my view.

If the Deputy's party had not destroyed the fiscal base of this country we would not be in this situation in the first place. We would be in a position whereby, instead of talking about having to reduce resources in a number of areas or, indeed, reduce or contain allowances or salaries, we would possibly be seeing individuals doing a good deal better than they are. The Deputy should not forget that his party practically made this country bankrupt. We are in receipt of €12 billion in aid this year from the ECB-IMF-EU and, without that, we would not be in a position to pay front-line workers the salaries or allowances they will get this year. Indeed, we would not be in a position to maintain 9,500 members of the Defence Forces, let alone look at the possibility of recruiting additional members this year, having already recruited 600 new members last year.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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The Minister is not addressing the issue of why one group will lose 14% and the other 6%.