Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I am pleased to present the Defence Forces (Second World War Amnesty and Immunity) Bill 2012 to Dáil Éireann. When the Bill was published last December, the Minister, Deputy Shatter, said that he hoped that the actions proposed in the Bill would help put to rest the concerns of those individuals still alive who fought for freedom and against tyranny with the Allied Forces during the Second World War. He also expressed the view that the Bill might lift a veil for the families of those who have already died. Having had the honour of taking the Committee and Report Stages of the Bill in the Seanad last month, and having heard the very positive contributions from all sides of that House, I believe that the optimism expressed by the Minister will be the case.

At its peak during the Second World War, the Irish Defence Forces had approximately 42,000 serving personnel. Over the course of the war, it is estimated that more than 7,000 members of the Defence Forces deserted, many to join the Allied Forces. Of these, approximately 2,500 personnel returned to their units or were apprehended and tried by military tribunal. The remaining personnel, numbering approximately 5,000, were the subject of dismissal under the Emergency Powers (No. 362) Order 1945 and the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act 1946.

The emergency powers order, which was signed by the then Taoiseach on 8 August 1945, provided for automatic dismissal from the Defence Forces of certain deserters and absentees without leave. The order also provided for surrender of pay and allowances and a condition that every person to whom the order applied should be disqualified for seven years from holding any office or employment remunerated from the Central Fund. This was subsequently enacted by the Oireachtas in the Defence Forces (Temporary Provisions) Act 1946.

The effect of the order was to impose significant hardship on many individuals and families and remove from them the right to be tried for the offences of which they stood accused and to provide a defence against the alleged crime. Many of the individuals were shunned in their communities and many never returned to Ireland. It is understood that some of those who were the subject of the order had actually died in combat. The majority of the individuals impacted by the order have now passed on, while those still alive are in their twilight years.

It was against this backdrop that in June 2012, following detailed consideration of the issue, the Government concluded that the sacrifice and contribution of those who deserted from the Defence Forces to fight on the Allied side in the Second World War should be recognised, while not undermining the requirements of military discipline or in any way condoning their desertion in a time of national emergency. In this context the Government committed to issuing an apology for the manner in which those members of the Defence Forces who left to join the Allied side during the period from 1939 to 1945 were treated after the war by the State and to seek to provide a legal mechanism for an amnesty to those who absented themselves from our Defence Forces for this reason. It is these individuals whom the Defence Forces (Second World War Amnesty and Immunity) Bill 2012 seeks to address.

The ability of the Defence Forces to maintain the high standards demanded of them requires complete clarity with regard to the exercise of command authority whether at home or abroad. To maintain standards and rise to the challenges of a military environment and all of the associated tasks, it is important to uphold a chain of command that is clear and unambiguous at all times. This is critical to the maintenance of unit cohesion and operational effectiveness. In this regard, it goes without saying that the Defence Forces must retain the power to enforce discipline through its own unique code of discipline within the military justice system. This disciplinary code must be efficient and effective, and above all else it must be fair to the individual.

In common with armies throughout the world, desertion from the Irish Defence Forces is regarded as a very serious offence. It is at the heart of the system of military discipline that when an individual takes the solemn oath at the commencement of his or her career, he or she cannot decide to just up and leave or fail to be available to perform duties. While this is very much the case today, it would especially have been the case at a time when the world was at war and our troops were on standby to defend our country from invasion.

Before elaborating on the Bill, it is important to put on the record of the House the fact that the Government recognises the value and importance to the State of the essential service given by all those who served in the Defence Forces throughout the period of the Second World War. They performed a crucial duty for the State at a time of national emergency and enormous difficulty. The loyalty of the Defence Forces to the State is indispensable. It is essential to the national interest that members of the Defence Forces do not abandon their duties at any time, especially at a time of crisis, and no responsible Government could ever depart from this principle. It is important we acknowledge that throughout the Second World War, the vast majority of men chose to stay in the Defence Forces and serve their own country. These members were engaged in important service for their country and it is crucial that nothing we do now in any way diminishes or undervalues their loyalty and the service given by them to the State.

Having said this, it is accepted by most people today that the majority of those who deserted the Defence Forces during the Second World War and who went on to fight against fascism did so out of a sense of idealism and with a commitment to protect democracies from tyranny and totalitarianism. Had there been a different outcome to the Second World War there is no reason to believe this State would have been immune to invasion.

In seeking to address the question of desertion during the Second World War, the Government has already acknowledged that the war gave rise to grave and exceptional circumstances. Members of the Defence Forces left their posts at that time to join the Allied side in the fight against tyranny, and together with many thousands of other Irish men and women, these individuals played an important role in defending freedom and democracy. Those who fought on the Allied side also contributed to protecting the State's sovereignty and independence and our democratic values.

It will be accepted by all in this House that in the almost 74 years since the outbreak of the Second World War, our understanding of history has matured. History teaches us lessons which can sometimes only be learned with the benefit of hindsight. The actions of those taken long ago, for whatever reasons, are not beyond re-evaluation. These actions can now be considered free from the constraints that bound those directly involved at the time and without questioning or revisiting their motivation. As the Minister, Deputy Shatter, has stated, the exploits of the men who left the Defence Forces to join the Allies have been politically airbrushed out of our contemporary history, but at this time of greater insight and understanding of the shared history and experiences of Ireland and Britain, the time is right for the role played by these brave volunteer Irish veterans to be recognised and the rejection they experienced understood.

From the remove of 2013, it is very hard to imagine the difficult decisions people made when they consciously decided to leave Ireland to join the Allied Forces during the course of the Second World War. During that period Ireland decided to remain neutral, but it is safe to say that at the time anti-British feeling was still running very high. Despite this, over the period of the Second World War an estimated 60,000 individually motivated citizens from the Twenty-six Counties left these shores to serve as volunteers in the British armed forces. While at the end of the war many of those who chose to fight with the Allies stayed on and sought to build lives for themselves, many more returned to Ireland.

There is no doubt that many veterans returning to Ireland at the end of the Second World War were met with grudging acceptance, but it is also clear that others faced hostility. This would be particularly true when the individual was known to have deserted the Defence Forces. For all of them, the honour and celebration which they may have experienced at the end of the war in England contrasted sharply with the changed circumstances of their return. There was no flag waving or cheering masses to greet them here. Instead they were faced with difficulties in seeking either work or social assistance, and many of their countrymen and women remained suspicious towards these individuals long after their return.

Before moving on to detail the specific provisions of the Bill, it is important that - just as the Minister, Deputy Shatter, did on Second Stage in the Seanad - I should re-emphasise that the Government does not condone desertion. The Government fully recognises, values and respects the contribution of all those who stood by their posts with the Defence Forces and pledged their lives to defend this State's integrity and sovereignty against any and all aggressors. In any consideration of the matter, we must also bear in mind the principle that such decisions cannot be left to the discretion of individual soldiers on active service. All soldiers must accept that there are consequences for desertion.

I now move on to the specific provisions of the Bill. Section 1 outlines the definitions for the purposes of the Bill. Section 2 provides for an amnesty for members of the Defence Forces who deserted or were absent without leave during the course of the Second World War and who subsequently served with forces fighting on the Allied side in that war and who were dismissed from the Defence Forces by the Emergency Powers Order 1945, were convicted of desertion or being absent without leave, or were or are liable to be prosecuted for desertion or being absent without leave.

Deputies will have noticed the Bill provides for an amnesty for those convicted of desertion or being absent without leave, rather than a pardon as was originally envisaged by Government. This change has been made for technical reasons and is in line with legal advice provided to me during the drafting process by the Attorney General to the effect that a pardon would require that each case be individually processed, a situation that would clearly not be possible in practical terms.

Section 3 provides an immunity from prosecution for members of the Defence Forces who deserted or were absent without leave during the course of the Second World War and who subsequently served with forces fighting on the Allied side in that war. Section 4 provides that no right, liability or any cause of action shall arise resulting from the enactment. Section 4 also provides that the amnesty being provided in section 2 will not have the effect of a pardon under Article 13.6 of the Constitution. Section 5 provides for the Short Title of the Bill.

I am satisfied that the Bill as drafted fully meets the Government's commitment to deal in a positive way with the issue of those who deserted our Defence Forces to join with the Allied Forces during the course of the Second World War, and that it does so in a way that does not expose the State to any liability in respect of those individuals.

I also believe that if this Bill is enacted it will send an important message to those people surviving, and the relatives of those that have since passed on. That message is that they can be proud of their contribution, or their relatives' contribution, in the fight for freedom. Indeed, it is more than that. As we look to the commemoration of the 100th anniversary of the commencement of the Great War, the 75th anniversary of the start of the Second World War in 2014 and the remembrance of all those who served and died in those conflicts, the survivors and the relatives of those who have since passed on can proudly commemorate the sacrifices they made during a very difficult time, not only in Irish history but in the history of Europe and the wider world.

I am pleased to submit this legislation for the consideration of the House. I look forward with anticipation to hearing the views and contributions of Deputies in their deliberations and reflections on the Bill.

I commend the Bill to the House.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Ba mhaith liom comhghairdeas a dhéanamh leis an Aire Stáit, an Teachta Kehoe, agus leis an Aire Cosanta, an Teachta Shatter, as ucht na hoibre atá déanta acu ar an mBille tábhachtach seo. Gabhaim buíochas freisin leis na státseirbhísigh sa Roinn Cosanta a bhfuil go leor oibre déanta acu ar an ábhar céanna. Tá an Bille dréachtaithe go han-mhaith. Tá cothromaíocht agus an spiorad ceart léirithe sa reachtaíocht. Nuair a ardaíodh an cheist seo sa Seanad cúpla seachtain ó shin, dhearbhaigh an Seanadóir Mooney go raibh Fianna Fáil chun tacaíocht a thabhairt dó. Tá mé sásta a rá nach bhfuil aon fhadhb agam leis an mBille. Beidh Fianna Fáil ag tacú leis sa Teach seo freisin. Is dócha go bhfáiltím go speisialta roimh an bealach ina bhfuil sé á láimhseáil. Is rud an-dáiríre é do shaighdiúir ar bith arm a thréigeadh. Is é sin ata i gceist againn anseo. Sna blianta atá imithe ón Dara Cogadh Domhanda, táimid tar éis éirí níos aibí. Is dócha go bhfuilimid fásta suas mar Stát. Is féidir linn féachaint siar le meon difriúil ar na heachtraí uafásacha a tharla san aois seo caite. Tá mé sásta gur maithiúnas, in ionad pardún ginearálta mar atá leagtha síos sa Bhunreacht, atá i gceist sa Bhille seo.

It is good to have an opportunity to address an issue of this importance in the House. In discussing the soldiers who deserted to support the Allied war effort, we should not lose sight of all the other Irishmen and women who left these shores at that time. It is estimated that approximately 60,000 did so from the Twenty-six Counties and upwards of another 60,000 from the Six Counties. They participated in the effort against what was a fundamentally evil regime. We all accept that those who participated in the battle against Hitler's monstrous regime were fighting in the interests of humanity.

As we meet to debate these matters, we remember in particular those who lost their lives. Like Deputy Clare Daly, I come from County Kildare and we have a particularly strong tradition of support and respect for the Defence Forces. It goes back beyond the foundation of the State because within our county many members of the British armed forces were based for many years. Therefore, our tradition and respect in Kildare is strong.

In examining this matter, I was interested in the writings of one of our well respected solicitors and historians in Kildare, Mr. Frank Taffe. He has researched the number of Kildare people whose family members who took part in the Second World War or who fought in it themselves. I will read into the record of the House an extract from one of Mr. Taffe's writings entitled "Eye on the Past". He is writing here about reading a book on the personnel who had deserted and who participated in the war effort. He states:

I went through the book at the time and extracted the names of 19 Athy men from the town and surrounding countryside who were included in what was sometimes referred to as the "Irish list of shame". For my part, I never regarded the book in that light and especially so after I had the privilege of interviewing one of the men who was so listed. His story was a simple one. Without work and with no prospect of getting work, he enlisted in the Irish Army only to find conditions and food so bad as to be intolerable. He, in company with so many of his army colleagues, travelled by train to Belfast to enlist in the British armed forces. His was not an ordinary act of desertion, rather a simple man's response to what he felt was an uncaring Irish Army regime which treated its recruits with callous disregard for their well-being. He fought alongside Irishmen, Englishmen, Scotsmen and Welshmen throughout the Second World War and never once did anyone question his right to do so.

Moreover, the co-pilot of the last RAF bomber to be shot down over Germany and killed in May 1945, as the horror came to an end, was an Irish man named Pilot Officer William Mackay. In common with many Irish families, I have my own experience, which is that my only aunt and godmother went to London in the early 1940s and met a young man who had grown up and been educated in Dublin. He had left the country for economic reasons and then joined the Irish Guards, as many Irish people subsequently did. He went on to be shot down over Tunisia and is buried, together with many others Irish comrades, in Tunis. This topic resonates with people up and down the country and all of them, including those who were directly connected to those who simply volunteered and those who are connected with those people who deserted for whatever reason, are welcoming of the fact that the Government and Members are debating this issue today in a positive and, hopefully, a constructive way.

When one considers those statistics of between 6,000 and 7,000 people who left the Defence Forces, it is interesting that at time, they were at the incredible strength of 42,000 men. If I have read the records correctly, between 1939 and 1945 the strength of the Defence Forces ranged between 40,000 and 60,000 at any given time. Professor Michael Kennedy of the Royal Irish Academy raises the point that while we know that perhaps 5,000 of these deserters went on to join the British armed forces, we do not know precisely what became of the rest of them and whether they became involved in the war effort in Britain. The Minister has highlighted the impact of the procedures that were in place at the time and he spoke of how those who were dismissed were disqualified for seven years from any public or Civil Service employment, including employment with local authorities or positions on any board or office of semi-State companies. Moreover, such individuals would have no pension entitlements from the day on which they absconded and no entitlement to receive unemployment assistance.

If one looks back at the period, there were pretty genuine reasons for the harsh nature of the imposition of such penalties. The Government of the day decided to punish desertion in this way rather than in the traditional military fashion with courts martial because of the scale of the desertion. It would have been impossible logistically to court martial 5,000 deserters and certainly it was not practical. At the time, according to the then Minister for Defence, Oscar Traynor in 1946:

It was not deemed feasible to hold courts martial on the large number, even if they could be apprehended. A question would arise as to whether they could be apprehended, or be apprehended for a long period of years.

It is important to refer to the context of this issue, which often is viewed with the benefit of hindsight in the context of Irish neutrality and British-Irish relations. It is not viewed sufficiently often in the context of the human relations that existed between citizens in this State and those in Britain, that is, Scotland, England and Wales. Members are discussing a situation in which initiatives were taken by a fledgling State which was extremely anxious to demonstrate to its neighbours and to the world that it was an independent State which was proud of that sovereignty it recently had won and was determined to protect. It also was a policy which had widespread public support in this country. One should remember this was not the only country that did not rush to the war effort. The American Government, despite pleas for its support and participation, only became involved after the attack on Pearl Harbor. This context for what happened is extremely important and one should not lose sight of it. The Emergency years in Ireland were extremely difficult years for the public at large. Sustaining the Defence Forces to be able to respond to any eventuality by keeping it at a strength of between 40,000 and 60,000 people was a real challenge for the Government of the day and constituted a cost on the taxpayer of the time. While the State obviously did not suffer the horrors of war, it still was a time of crisis, rationing and privation for many citizens, and allowing desertion to go unpunished simply was not an option for the Government in 1945. Moreover, while one brutal war may have ended, who was to say that another would not have broken out? The Cold War was about to start and in the circumstances, no government could do anything other than to impose the most stringent penalties on deserters.

However, in the more enlightened and peaceful period we now are privileged to enjoy, one can look back with greater compassion and greater understanding. One can empathise with those people who, for whatever reason, felt the need to leave the Irish Defence Forces. Some of them, I am sure, were motivated by the highest ideals while others perhaps were not but saw an opportunity to get out of a country that was under extreme economic pressure at the time, as also is the case today. However, it is appropriate that the Bill the Minister of State has introduced will receive the support of all parties in this House and that Members will enact it as soon as possible. It is appropriate to tell those very few survivors of that turbulent period that the Houses of the Oireachtas respect the contribution they made to the Allied cause and to the war against a brutal and monstrous regime and that Members, albeit belatedly, thank them and congratulate them on what they did and that where their emotions were right, Members are happy and content as a Parliament to extend an amnesty to them. I am unsure of what practical benefit this will be to any of those remaining people affected but at least, like the Taoiseach's apology some weeks ago to the Magdalen laundry women, it has an important symbolic effect on all those involved. Consequently, with those few thoughts, I also commend the legislation to the House and thank the Leas-Cheann Comhairle for the opportunity to contribute.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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Measaim go bhfuil sé tábhachtach labhairt ar an mBille seo. Beidh na líomhaintí i leith tréigtheoirí Fórsaí Cosanta an Stáit - gur loic siad ar a ndualgas agus ar a mhóid don Stáit - ann go dtí go ndéanfaimid déileáil leis an mBille seo. B'fhéidir gur shíl siad ag an am agus ina dhiaidh go raibh an rud ceart á dhéanamh acu, ach ná déanfar dearmad gur bhris siad a ngealltanas don Stát. D'fhág siad an Stát níos oscailte do ionradh ó Hitler agus a chuid airm, nó fiú ionradh ó Impireacht na Breataine a bhí fós ag caitheamh súil i dtreo an Saorstát ag an staid sin. Is léir ó aon tuiscint nó staidéar ar an stair go raibh ceart ar an dá thaobh sa chás seo - an Stát agus a fórsaí a bhí neodrach, agus iad siúd a bhí ag iarraidh seasamh i gcoinne an t-olc. B'é an t-olc sa chás seo ná Hitler agus iad siúd a thug tacaíocht dó. B'fhéidir go bhfuil sé ceart, agus na blianta imithe thart, aitheantas a thabhairt dóibh siúd a thréig an fóid trí maithiúnas a bhronnadh orthu as riail an airm agus an Stát. Measaim go bhfuil sé sin ceart agus déanfaidh me déileáil níos mó leis.

Many Irish citizens joined the British forces to fight during the Second World War, as they had done in many imperial wars in the past.

Many joined because it was a tradition in their families, some joined for adventure while others joined out of loyalty to, or affinity with, the British state or for the purpose of fighting a greater evil than the British empire itself. A great number of Irish men died in Second World War battles and their sacrifice is, rightly, the subject of a regularised annual commemoration in the State. Regrettably, some died on the Axis side and their memory is in many ways besmirched by the fact that they fought on that side.

However, we are addressing the issues surrounding those who deserted the State's Defence Forces 60 years ago to join another army to fight Nazism and Hitler's army in Europe. Given the lapse of time, it is impractical to revisit the individual circumstances surrounding each case and many of those who survived the war are deceased. The amnesty provided in the legislation has been deemed the most appropriate means to acknowledge that these men deserted to do a greater good and their insubordination and perceived treasonous act in fighting an evil threatening the very fabric of democracy, society and the world was not wrong. It is felt that an amnesty will bring the matter to a close.

The amnesty is a redress measure. I remind the Minister of State of the Government's responsibility to apologise, for instance, to the survivors of symphysiotomy or to the survivors of the Bethany Homes who were left out of any attempt to make amends when the State dealt with the Magdalen laundries women only last week. The children of those who deserted were promptly taken by the "cruelty men" and put into forced labour in industrial schools and laundries for their so-called crimes of their fathers. Hopefully, we will revisit this. It is not the issue today but it needs to be taken on board. Thankfully, the State has, in recent years, accepted its responsibility to apologise for past mistakes and wrongs. Our society is big enough and strong enough to admit that there were failings in the State and all of us have failings in our lives. That is a sign of a mature society and, hopefully, the wrongs I have mentioned will be addressed.

Sinn Féin approves of this Bill as a recognition of the response to the actions of deserters at the time. They were faced with the Emergency Powers (No. 362) Order 1940 and summary dismissal and they were punitively prevented from gaining employment from the State having been dishonourably discharged after absconding. Bizarrely, while they were barred from State employment on returning, the State made administrative provision in order that they could receive pension entitlements from the British authorities. On the one hand, they received their British entitlement for their service during the war but the State would not give them recognition in any shape or form.

I also understand the concerns of the current and formers members of the Defence Forces regarding the Bill when they face the level of cutbacks currently under way and the continued downsizing and downgrading because it must feel like a kick in the teeth to them for an amnesty to be granted to those who upped sticks and left at a time of the State's greatest need. Ireland, despite being neutral, also faced the threat of invasion not only by the Nazis but by the British who had drawn up a plan to invade and reconquer the island at the time. That must not be forgotten because two foreign armies were stationed on Irish soil. The British and US armies were based for the duration of the war in the Six Counties in large numbers in preparation for D-Day and its aftermath.

It is in that context that it is important to recognise those who remained in Ireland and served the Defence Forces throughout the Second World War and acknowledge the fact that they did not abandon their duties, although, as an Irish republican, I wish some of them had because many of those imprisoned by the State might not have served time in the internment camp in the Curragh and some of those executed by the State might have been freed to live a longer life. Perhaps the State will revisit this issue as well.

The fundamental point of this Bill is to say that at the time it was not feasible for the Government to have gone through the normal channels of military justice which would have entailed the rounding up, court-martialing and imprisonment of almost 5,000 men. That is what is said but it should be recalled that most of those who deserted left the country quickly and were members of various armies, including the British, US and Canadian before they were even missed. It would have been impractical for the Army to consider rounding them up. I am not aware of any Defence Forces deserter who ended up fighting in the Axis armies but others of many hues, some of whom represented the State, besmirched their reputation and Ireland's reputation by aligning themselves with Hitler's grand plans and, in some cases, collaborating with his genocidal policies.

On the question of courts martial, the Fianna Fáil Administration at the time was easily able to summons courts martial when it suited, especially to intern and convict, including execution, republicans during the Emergency. The State was so distracted rounding up republicans that it could not have rounded up all the deserters if they had remained in the country and the Curragh was over capacity, as internees were imprisoned for years on end. It could not or would not pursue deserters because its main target was republicans. During this period, there was a nod and wink support of the Allied forces by the state, with captured British airmen, etc., always finding their way north, even though they had been captured, and information gleaned by G2 and the Garda special branch was exchanged and passed to civil servants, which then mysteriously found its way into British hands.

Just as I commend those who went and fought to prevent the spread of fascism, especially those who joined armies other than the British army, which was an occupying force in Ireland, I commend those who left Ireland and fought against fascism in the Spanish Civil War.

Finian McGrath (Dublin North Central, Independent)
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Hear, hear.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It should not be forgotten this was at a time Nazi Germany was supplying General Franco of Spain with the hardware to bomb towns and cities such as Guernica and to gun down many brave Spanish and international comrades at battlefronts across the Spanish state. I wonder when the State or the church will apologise to the volunteers and their families who had to sneak out of the country to fight the evils of fascism which they understood three years before the outbreak of the Second World War. They understood the dangers of Franco's dictatorship and the ideals he, Hitler and others in Europe shared at this stage. Those volunteers were excommunicated, ostracised and discriminated against by the church and elements in the State because they had the gall and bravery to stand up for the greater good of society and against the evils of fascism, whether it was in Ireland or in Europe. They suffered the same retribution Irish republicans and their families suffered during the foundation of the State, the Civil War and for a number of years afterwards in Ireland through torture, imprisonment and execution, ostracisation, exile, discrimination, being pilloried and censure.

It is interesting that a Fine Gael Minister in introducing the Bill acknowledged that the State wronged those who were fighting fascism, given their Blueshirt history. His party is a merger of the Blueshirts, the Army Comrades Association, National Guard, Cumann na nGaedhael, the National Centre Party and some southern Unionists. It is not that they gave a good account of themselves fighting fascism in Spain because they spent most of their time cowering in the trenches or, when ordered from the front by Franco, cowering in the wine bars before being sent home in disgrace. There have been no apologies from Fine Gael for the wrongs done to them and their families.

Where is the amnesty or pardon for the members of the Defence Forces who joined the Free State forces in the mistaken belief they would stand by the Republic but then left, having seen sense, to join the IRA during the civil war? No such apology has been given and the individuals in question have not been recognised. Chun filleadh ar an príomh cheist atá ag déanamh tinneas duinn inniu, tá sé tabhachtach nach bhfuil dabht ar bith orainn maidir le stair an Dar Chogadh Domhanda.

The Minister described the State's neutrality position during the Second World War as a "principle of moral bankruptcy" in the context of the Holocaust. While debate on this issue is for forums other than this Chamber, in academia and elsewhere, I do not believe the Minister is correct. It was not the Holocaust that motivated the Allied powers to come together; they were motivated by a wish to defeat the Axis powers. The USSR and United States both remained neutral until they were attacked and did not join the war as a result of the Holocaust. Regardless of one's views on the rights or wrongs of their positions, these are the facts.

Among the 5,000 deserters - the figure is in dispute and may have been higher or substantially lower than this - many may have been ideologically motivated to leave the Defence Forces and defect to fight the Nazis. Ideologically motivated or not, we should not misread the motivation of the Allied side in the early years of the war. To do so is not to deny in any way the right and need to commemorate the memories of those who fought and what they fought against in the full context of the war.

Those who returned from the war were effectively blacklisted from employment, which consigned many of them poverty. This discrimination was wrong and the State should have redressed it and the consequential poverty the individuals in question and their families had to endure years ago. It is good, therefore, that this is being done today. The emergency powers order denied these individuals the opportunity to defend themselves and their actions. Given the time that has elapsed, it is impractical to visit each and every case of desertion and, therefore, it is much more appropriate to proceed with the Bill.

We should not be surprised by the manner in which the de Valera Government responded at the time given. It also interned more than 2,000 republicans in the Curragh during the period it referred to as the Emergency. Moreover, it showed scant regard for the rights of those who were held in the Curragh and it was brutal in its use of special powers. It broke the men, many of whom were so distressed by the inhumane conditions in which they were forced to live that they simply could not function in normal society once they were released. This is a legacy with which society must also live.

Three prisoners died on hunger strike against their imprisonment and the conditions in which they were held. Jack McNeela, Tony D'Arcy and Sean McCaughey died protesting the conditions in the Curragh prison camps. During Sean McCaughey's inquest, it was made known that he had not been outside in the fresh air or sunlight for four and a half years and had been kept for months on end in solitary confinement. Seán McBride, acting as counsel for the next-of-kin at the inquest, asked the prison doctor if he would keep a dog in such conditions, to which the doctor replied he would not. The treatment of republican prisoners was in stark contrast to how certain other categories of prisoners were treated in the Curragh. Soldiers from the Allied and Axis powers found themselves in Ireland during the Second World War and were held, following capture, as prisoners of war in the Curragh prison camp. In contrast with republican prisoners, they were wined and dined, as it were, and in some cases British soldiers were allowed to attend social functions outside the camp. Some of them even had their own bicycles and were allowed to travel to Dublin for events under supervision. The position was bizarre, especially as others who had not been convicted and were not combatants in the war were not afforded similar rights.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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They were not considered a threat to the State.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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They were a threat to the State because they were British soldiers in uniform when they landed here. They should have been considered a risk. Their treatment was a far cry from the fate that befell republicans who were kept in solitary confinement in the Curragh camp under de Valera's regime.

The authorities were no strangers to coming down hard on republicans. Despite interventions from everyone from Seán MacBride to Oliver J Flanagan and members of the Labour Party, de Valera's Government contracted the infamous British executioner, Albert Pierrepoint, to hang Charlie Kerins. Kerins joined the IRA after the Government used the pretext of the Emergency to up the ante and come down more harshly on republicans, resulting in the unspeakable cruelty that took place in the Curragh.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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The Deputy is being very one-sided.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The truth hurts. Kerins was found guilty by a non-jury military tribunal, the same tribunals it appears the Government could not establish to catch the deserters.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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Are they the same tribunals afforded to Jean McConville?

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Many of the Deputy's people were found guilty. They have stories to tell but will not open their mouths. They include the leader of the Deputy's party.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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The truth hurts and if the Minister of State cannot take it, he may as well leave the Chamber. Perhaps he will listen for a moment.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Will the Sinn Féin leader come to the House to speak about Jean McConville?

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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I did not heckle the Minister of State. The truth hurts. It is funny that I am not even addressing the history of Fine Gael governments but the legacy of the actions taken against republicans by Fianna Fáil governments.

Charlie Kerins was refused the right of appeal and executed. The Government even went as far as banning any mention of his killing by the State on radio and in newspapers to prevent any groundswell of public support. George Plant, who had been an IRA volunteer since the 1920s, was a Protestant from the Minister of State's part of the country. Plant was dubiously tried and sentenced to death for the capture and interrogation of an informer, an IRA chief-of-staff named Sean Hayes. The State also executed, within weeks of arrest, volunteers Patrick McGrath and Tommy Harte, who were also refused the right of appeal, and volunteers Maurice O'Neill and Richard Goss. Bernard Casey was shot dead in captivity in the Curragh.

The Minister may argue that this is not the day for discussing these particular aspects of the State's wrongdoing. However, if we are to embark on a journey of healing wounds inflicted by the State in the past, these matters must be addressed. The State might not have such a schizophrenic approach to Irish reunification and its history and outworkings if it had faced up to its past and had a truth and reconciliation process at any stage since the 1920s. We are suggesting such a process for the period since the late 1960s but the State, even at this late stage, could establish a truth and reconciliation process for past events. It could even result in another merger, similar to that which took place when the Blueshirts, Cumann na nGaedhael and so forth came together, albeit this time between Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and maybe even Sinn Féin, given that we all came from the same party before going are separate ways.

Seán Ó Fearghaíl (Kildare South, Fianna Fail)
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The potential is unlimited.

Paul Kehoe (Wexford, Fine Gael)
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Fianna Fáil and Sinn Féin, that is the alternative.

Aengus Ó Snodaigh (Dublin South Central, Sinn Fein)
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It may be appropriate to face into the centenary commemorations around the revolutionary period from 1916 to 1921 and the subsequent counter­revolutionary period. Many long conversations need to be held about the actions of past governments and elements of the architecture of the State. These include a discussion of what took place in Ireland during the Second World War.

In all of this we need to heed rather than repeat the lessons of history. We must be mindful and vigilant, especially in this era of recession, of those who resort to racism and anti-Semitism. There are some in political life in Europe and beyond who hold similar views to those which led to the slaughter of the Holocaust and the Second World War. We must not be complacent when it comes to the prospect of fascism. While Greece does not have a history of fascism, Greek fascists did not fall from the sky. The violently aggressive programme of impoverishing a nation at the behest of the troika, the victimisation of Greek people and the pitting of citizens against one another is fertile ground for fascism. Members of the Golden Dawn party, which gained 7% in recent elections, openly give Nazi salutes and advocate fascist ideology. The party scapegoats immigrants and, in one case, threatened to remove immigrant patients from Greek hospitals which were running low on medicines. Golden Dawn appeared in Greece because racist ideas were allowed to fester in the public mind in combination with social dislocation and economic devastation.

We need to be mindful of this situation, not only in Ireland, but throughout Europe.

Thankfully, it appears the far right in this State is confined to the rooms of lonely men who lurk on far right Internet message boards posting racist messages or to the sad cases who believe that they can impress people by spray painting racist graffiti. However, Governments inadvertently fuel extremist right-wing ideologies through certain actions. I would urge caution, particularly given that, as we saw on television last night, elected councillors have freely called for apartheid for Travellers. Even a former justice Minister was alleged to have made racist comments during the citizenship referendum. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Hogan, and some judges have strayed close to making racist comments about Travellers. We must be mindful of our language. Otherwise, we will fuel an element that once gave rise to fascism. I am not making an allegation against any Deputy. Rather, I am urging caution. Some people feed on the type of language that we have heard in recent times, particularly as regards Travellers.

It does not take much for fascist or racist groups to gain a foothold when people are neglected and left weary from economic destruction and significant levels of unemployment. Even Mr. Nick Griffin in Britain managed to get himself elected to the European Parliament. These are dangerous ideologies and Greece will not be the last European country to witness a rise of a degree of fascism unless we address it early, something that Europe did not succeed in doing in the 1930s when the dangers were clear to everyone who was willing to listen and when the rest of Europe did not support those who stood by the republic in Spain in 1936 and beforehand.

While we are examining issues of the past and making right the wrongs, it is essential that we not impact on the future of the Republic while we are still attempting to create it. This Bill is an important part of that vital debate. It is believed that as many as 5,000 men deserted the Irish Defence Forces, 100 of whom are still alive. I hope this Bill and its amnesty as regards their actions will give them some solace. They are also owed the right to live out their days in a country that does not have the conditions necessary to feed into and breed fascism. They should never need to see the forces that they fought against during the Second World War return to the fore.

My party and I will support the Bill in the Dáil as we did in the Seanad. This welcome legislation will address the issue in question. Hopefully, it is a signal that many other wrongs will be addressed and that the issues I have raised will be discussed.

Michael Kitt (Galway East, Fianna Fail)
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Deputies Clare Daly and Finian McGrath are next and will share a speaking slot. Deputy Clare Daly has six minutes.

Clare Daly (Dublin North, Socialist Party)
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I will try to get it all in before the break. I am speaking as someone whose family's involvement dates back to the foundation of the Irish Army. I am also an internationalist and a socialist. In this context, I clearly understand that it is always ordinary people and soldiers who pay the price in war. The Second World War was no different. We all know the stories of the promises of freedom, "homes fit for heroes" and heroes who only returned fit for homes with all of the scars that accompany war.

This is not just a question of how these men were treated at the time, but also of the long delay in the State's recognition of the situation as one that needed to be addressed. That delay indicates a lack of political back bone. The issue is also linked to our relationship with Britain. Seven years after the end of the Second World War, the British Government announced an amnesty for 10,000 of its military's members who had deserted. That army was actively involved in combat, yet here we are more than 60 years later still deliberating on what to do.

We must approach the issue with a sense of history, perspective and humanity. It was not just a matter of punishment. The only reason for the delay and for the imposition of such punitive measures on Army deserters was that they deserted to the British army. The issue has been surrounded by a certain amount of Anglophobia that has existed since the foundation of the State. It is a legacy of the weak Irish State's hypocritical attitude in its dealings with Britain. The battle was fought for independence against Britain. However, as James Connolly warned at the time:

If you remove the English army to-morrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organisation of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain.

England would still rule you. She would rule you through her capitalists, through her landlords, through her financiers, through the whole array of commercial and individualist institutions she has planted in this country... Nationalism without Socialism – without a reorganisation of society on the basis of a broader and more developed form of that common property...is only national recreancy.

Having examined the history books, the key reason that many people deserted the Army in desperation and went to Britain was not ideological, but owed to the State's failure to deal with the issue of economic independence. A soldier was expected to raise his family on 14 shillings during the war. It was not enough. We must ask ourselves whether poverty is treason. For many of those involved, it was not an easy decision. They knew they would be vilified, but they clearly believed that, if they wanted to look after their families, they had no choice. They were treated shabbily and unacceptably. I am glad the issue is being tidied up now.

I noted the Minister of State's points. It was almost suggested by some Deputies that the lack of access to military courts did the people in question a favour and that emergency powers were used to help them. I do not buy that argument. Those powers were always wrong. It was a starvation order. It denied these men entitlements and gratuities, barred them from working in public jobs for seven years, disqualified them from receiving unemployment benefits etc. One reason for military tribunals not being utilised was the fact that the issue would have attracted media attention. Let us remember that de Valera had already embarrassed the country in international eyes by officially commiserating with the German Government on the death of Hitler. Clearly, there was another motive for not dealing with deserters.

I have little time remaining. Emigration to Britain is continuing. We are exporting people because this country is failing to provide them with a decent standard of living. Irish firemen in New York and Irish nurses in England have been forced out of this country. Army barracks are closing and allowances are being taken from soldiers.

The very circumstances which forced previous generations of Irish men in desperation to go and join the British army are alive and well now under the policies of austerity which are driving many people out of this country today. We must be wary of that.